Current Israeli/Lebanese conflict

Current Israeli/Lebanese conflict, how will it end?

  • WWIII, all out NBC war

    Votes: 21 14.6%
  • WWIII, conventional weapons

    Votes: 20 13.9%
  • Contained to the current parties

    Votes: 76 52.8%
  • Resolved through diplomacy

    Votes: 27 18.8%

  • Total voters
    144

rollerboy

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sdw said:
I think that Iran feels that they can trancend the traditional religious and ethnic boundaries..
A thousand years of internecine warfare says otherwise.

Iran is a theocracy, ruled by hard line Shiite clerics. They are not interested in transcending religious boundaries. Iran fought against the Taleban in Afghanistan, based on ideological differences.

sdw said:
They are in Iraq. They have some influence with both the Sunni and Shiite militias.
Shiite and Sunni radicals are not above cooperating against a common enemy, but that does not imply any long term friendship.

Wahhabi clerics have long declared Shiites to be apostates. Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda echo this call, decrying Iraq's Shiites in particular as collaborators. Al-Qaeda has masterminded extremely lethal attacks against Shiite pilgrams and sacred mosques. What we see in Iraq is Sunni and Shiite factions killing each other.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/i...dec6f021cd67f5&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/iraq/20060628-1412-iraq-bombingsuspect.html
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG04Ak01.html
http://wjz.com/topstories/topstories_story_180220450.html
http://www.aina.org/news/20060622020653.htm

Even in Pakistan, Shiite mosques and Imams have been targeted by suicide bombers.
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Display...subcontinent_July489.xml&section=subcontinent
http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-16/0607011440181427.htm
 
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OTBn

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westwoody said:
Don't blame Harper, he is only doing what his boss (W) tells him to.
sparkymacker said:
That is a typically ignorant comment, Harper is his own man. Paul Martin would be dithering himself into a frenzy if he were still (thank fucking christ he is not) the PM.
LOL! Harper his own man - ya, right. "Bush's poodle II".
 

dirtydan

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metoo113 said:
But only 3% of the Iranian Population is Arab.

Excellent point and one all too often overlooked when people talk about the Middle East. Iran isn't an Arab country, most Iranians are Persians and calling a Persian an Arab would be roughly similar to calling a Norwegian a Swede! ;)
 

dirtydan

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rollerboy said:
By the end of the Iran-Iraq war, 1988, Iraq had grown far stronger militarily than it was at during early stages of the war. Reportedly, Iraq ended the war with military superiority.
But superior to what? It's neighbours or other countries such Britain, France and the US for example? Iraq certainly had a vast tank fleet, but during that bloody 8 year conflict they did not use their armour forces in a way similar to that of NATO or Warsaw Pact forces. Iraqi use of armour wasn't that far off of they tanks were used in WW1 or by some countries in the early years of WW2.

rollerboy said:
In the years between the Iran-Iraq war, and the Gulf War in '91, Saddam continued to build his military apparatus. The Iraqi military which US forces dismanted in '91 was, if anything, stronger than the one faced by the Iranians.
Perhaps so. The Iraqi Army certainly had a big influx of T-72 MBT's from Russia and other countries. But the T-72 has proven itself to be a poor tank. It's more venerable to anti-mines than its western counterparts and too often brews up very quickly when hit and penetrated.

A bit off topic, an interesting point is during the war some countries were selling arms to Iraq AND Iran such as the former USSR, China, and Brazil.

rollerboy said:
Iran also had advanced weapons such as F14's, Hawk missiles, Chieftain tanks, which were either expended fighting Iraq, or long since cannibalized for parts. Iranian military power, outside of WMD's and ballistic missiles, has probably regressed.
Canada once considered buying those F-14's from Iran who had put them up for sale after the revolution. To me, I thought the US would have been very happy to have those 80-90 F-14's taken out of Iranian possession and go to a close ally. But no, the Reagan adminstration was furious at Canada and any other country that contemplated those F-14's.

With a lot of it's air force using American aircraft the availability of spare parts became a huge problem for the Iranians. Besides the F-14 Tomcats they also had F-4 Phantoms and F-5 Freedom Fighters. Of the F-14's I believe less than 2 dozen were operational.

The Chieftain MBT's used by the Iranian Army, and captured ones used by the Iraqis, proved to be somewhat unsuitable. Speficially the engine tended to overheat as it wasn't really powerful enough to move the 55-60 ton beast. Otherwise great armour and a great gun.



rollerboy said:
http://www.milnet.com/Iranian-Military.html

The hardline government has likely shifted much of the resurgent oil wealth to military modernization. Yet even with complete modernization of its air force, I don't see any way that Iran could avoid losing control of its airspace. After that, sustained aerial bombardment would paralyze and degrade its ground forces. WMD's are their only serious threat in a full fledged war.
Mordenize, but buying from who? If you're looking for local superiority then getting something better than your neighbour's is ok. Afterall most of the countries in the region are still dependent on older tanks like the T-55. If Iran is looking to directly take on Israel for instance, despite the distance between the two, then where are the Iranians going to get tanks that can match the Merkavas of the IDF? For that matter the M1A1 Abrams the Saudis uses? Unless one is depending a heavily overwhelming numbers there isn't much that can match most western military equipment.
 

dirtydan

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JustAGuy said:
It certainly wouldn't be the first time in my life that I've been confused or wrong, dirtydan.
Same here, but you were confusing the outcome of the Tet Offensive with who won/lost the Vietnam War.

JustAGuy said:
But Dittman said that the tet offensive was such a smashing defeat for the vc that they ceased to be an effective fighting force. I don't believe that to be true and a revisionist view of history doesn't make it so.
Depends for who? Got to remember there was the Viet Cong, a guerilla force made of not only North Vietnamese but also South Vietnamese and then there was the North Vietamese army. No doubt the VC got a whomping, because afterall in Tet they strayed away from their usual guerilla tactics and fought a more conventional style of battle. After Tet they returned to their guerilla tactics. The NVA took on the US Marines at Kae Song and in the end lost the seige. It wasn't until the US forces were pretty much out of Vietnam that the NVA assumed a bigger role in the war, and then it was a juggernaut compared to the disintergrating South Vietnamese military.
 

dirtydan

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sparkymacker said:
Unfortunately you know nothing of military history, and should not voice an opinion on it. The truth is that the Tet offensive was the only time the Viet Cong tried to go head to head with the Americans and were totally destroyed as a consequence. The Viet Cong did disappear as a military force, but they were replaced by the NVA, which carried the war on to the end. The Americans were not defeated in Vietnam, but on the streets of America. The communists shrewdly realized that by pumping money and support into the anti-war movement in the US, they could accomplish what they could not on the field of battle.
Yah somebody ought to read military history, indeed, yes indeed. Take good fucking look in the mirror dude and stuff the idiotic paranoia as well. :rolleyes:
 

Rain Man

10962 Beachcrest Street
Oct 24, 2005
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dirtydan said:
would be roughly similar to calling a Norwegian a Swede! ;)
They all look alike to me! :rolleyes:
 

rollerboy

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dirtydan said:
But superior to what? It's neighbours or other countries such Britain, France and the US for example?
Clearly inferior to Western powers, the Gulf War made that clear. But extremely dangerous to it's regional neighbors. That's why Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, and even Syria supported the Gulf War, while Iran sat on the sidelines.

If Iran is looking to directly take on Israel for instance, despite the distance between the two, then where are the Iranians going to get tanks that can match the Merkavas of the IDF? For that matter the M1A1 Abrams the Saudis uses? Unless one is depending a heavily overwhelming numbers there isn't much that can match most western military equipment.
Precisely. Iran's conventional military cannot match Israel's, at this time. China, Russia, and France are willing to exchange Iran's petrol dollars for missiles, tanks, and fighters.

I can't escape the conclusion that if they believed themselves capable of defeating Israel militarily, the Iranians would have already attacked.
 

hornyitalian06

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The Israeli/Lebanese conflict has going for years. I think the rest of world along with Canada and U.S. should help to get both sides to cease fire and talk about some sort of solution.
Bombing each other solves nothing but innocent people/civilians are caught up in this mess.
Both countries have to learn to live together and respect each other as neighbours.
 

rollerboy

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hornyitalian06 said:
The Israeli/Lebanese conflict has going for years. I think the rest of world along with Canada and U.S. should help to get both sides to cease fire and talk about some sort of solution.
Bombing each other solves nothing but innocent people/civilians are caught up in this mess.
Both countries have to learn to live together and respect each other as neighbours.
Most Lebanese have no interest in fighting a war with Israel.

Lebanon was torn apart by the influx of Palestinian refugees, who continued to fight their war against Israel from Lebanese soil. This upset the delicate ethnic and religious balance of Lebanon. Lebanon eventually descended into civil war, as Maronite Christians, Druzes, and other Lebanese factions blamed the Palestians for dragging their small country into war.

Israel invaded Lebanon believing they could wipe out the PLO and its allies. Instead, they provoked the creation of Hezbollah, a Shiite militia supported by Iran and Syria. Syria also invaded Lebanon, ostensibly to quell the war they helped create, and set up a long occupation which only ended last year.

Lebanon serves as a proxy battleground for Israel, Syria, and Iran. The only way to stop this is to establish a peacekeeping force powerful enough to both disarm Hezbollah, and protect Lebanon.
 

georgebushmoron

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Mar 25, 2003
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dessert said:
<i>Logan's Run</i>
Is that a form of diarrhea (from eating Logan berries)?


Anyhow, Israel is going about this all wrong. Lebanon is bombed to smithereens and many Lebanese children and women are dead, which is only going to inflame Arab Sunni hatred and unite the Shia Hezbollah with them. Even an Israeli commander was saying that they intend on bombing Lebanon back 100 years. That isn't too fucking wise. Soon Israel will be dealing with a larger terrorist threat than just Hezbollah.
 

Yman

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Jul 10, 2002
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georgebushmoron said:
Soon Israel will be dealing with a larger terrorist threat than just Hezbollah.
Well lets see, there already exists the anti Israel terrorist organizations of Al Qaeda, Abu Nidal, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Asbat al-Ansar, HAMAS, Al-Jihad , Palestine Islamic Jihad, the PLF ( Palestine Liberation Front ), & the PFLP ( popular front for the liberation of Palestine )

Did I miss any ? Are you alluding to other organizations, or new organizations ?
 

dirtydan

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hornyitalian06 said:
The Israeli/Lebanese conflict has going for years. I think the rest of world along with Canada and U.S. should help to get both sides to cease fire and talk about some sort of solution.
Bombing each other solves nothing but innocent people/civilians are caught up in this mess.
Both countries have to learn to live together and respect each other as neighbours.

Here, here. Yes Israel or any country has the right to defend itself, but that right should involve running roughshod over another country like Lebanon. The Lebanese have been through enough in +30 years when it comes to war. :(
 

dirtydan

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rollerboy said:
Israel invaded Lebanon believing they could wipe out the PLO and its allies. Instead, they provoked the creation of Hezbollah, a Shiite militia supported by Iran and Syria. Syria also invaded Lebanon, ostensibly to quell the war they helped create, and set up a long occupation which only ended last year.

Actually when the Israelis invaded Lebanon in 1982, Hezbollah was somewhat pro-Israeli. The Shia in southern Lebanon were sick and tired of being mistreated, especially by the Palestinians, and the Israeli invasion gave them the opportunity to try to improve their lot. However soon afterward they became very anti-Israeli.
 

dirtydan

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sparkymacker said:
Fuck you asshole, you are the one that is fucked up.

Your contribution to the discussion so far hasn't even amounted to being jackshit. Now for some one to bitch and accuse about others not knowing military history, one would assume that you know at least a few things. So far you have been shooting blanks. It's clear you're just a schmuck with bugger all intelligent to contribute. :p
 

stryker

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Jan 23, 2004
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In your dreams
hitman.us
Damed,, I don't do dope any more,but,,,,you used to be able to get the best hash from Lebanon,blond/red and blacl with a strip of opium down the middle of a brick:D Now all they have around here is this shit black crap:rolleyes:

sorry for the hijack:p
 

FuZzYknUckLeS

Monkey Abuser
May 11, 2005
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Schmocation
Yet another thread that's spiralled into pointless BS

sparkymacker said:
I agree...stuff it up your fucking ass
sparkymacker said:
Fuck you asshole, you are the one that is fucked up.
sparkymacker said:
I think you missed one....the P.R.I.I.C. (Perbert Retards Intent on Idiotic Comments)
sparkymacker said:
(Founding member)
Why is this asshole still here? :confused:

I was rather shocked when I saw the first wave of evacuees on the news pissin' and moanin' about the boat ride home. I say take those fuckers back to Lebanon and stick their asses in the back of the line.
 

greenvalley

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Sep 19, 2004
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just for a little historical perspective. here is a quote from a UN commitee report from 1947

Entry #10
"June 24, 1946, Palestine. The Irgun radio “Fighting Zion” warns that three kidnapped British officers are held as hostages for two Irgun members, Josef Simkohn and Issac Ashbel facing execution as well as 31 Irgun members facing trial."

Doesn't this sound somewhat familliar? to certain current news events.

Here is the source
http://www.doublestandards.org/text/unbunche.html

Some interesting reading, these are the very same people that say how bad terrorist's are. They should know thier country was started that way.
 
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