Current Israeli/Lebanese conflict

[rollerboy]

Chiming in after four pages of commentary...

It is hard for me to understand this insanity. It makes me uneasy, watching the conflict escalate. It makes me laugh hearing America calling for restraint. It makes me sick to hear our prime minister voice his support for Israel after 3 generations in one Canadian family in Lebanon were murdered indiscriminately. I'm tired of the propaganda.

For all the rhetoric of the blue bloods in the $5000 suits at the G8 summit, protected as they were by a security force beyond measure while sipping chardonney and eating mutton, and all the opinions of the talking heads on TV, the news, the radio and the folks on this board, this is what this war basically equates to: dead people. Dead kids. Dead families. Bodies mangled. Grief and blood. Homes destroyed. Children orphaned.

An eight year old enemy of the peace...
A baby terrorist...
Another Lebanese terrorist
This is not a child, it is a casualty of war.

You can have all the rhetoric in the world, it won't matter one iota to the father fishing his child's remains from a scorched crater in the earth.

It's all bullshit. If I could wave a hand and have my way, I would take that shitty little strip of land from both the arabs and the jews and let it go fallow.

What is the above, if not a steaming pile...of rhetoric?

Gosh, I'm so tired of people saying things which don't reinforce my point of view. Why are they allowed to speak? I wish they would all go away, so I could hear only the perfect resonance of my own soliloquy. Unblemished, Absolute Truth.

The noble shepherds of Hezbollah, minding their own business, playing peacefully with their rockets, spied a convoy of Israeli soldiers across the border. "Brothers!" they exhorted happily, "Come to Lebanon for cinnamon tea and apricot cakes..."

Israel is so evil. It's so obvious to non-evil people that they bathe in human blood, and live only to inflict misery, suffering, and ultimately death on all the innocents of the world.

 

[Big Trapper]

Build a Big Wall Around Them...

Send in an unlimited supply of guns and ammo...

Hang the last one left alive as a murderer...

 

[old pooner]

I'm pretty worried because I have a friend from Lebanon who got married recently and he took his wife there for their honeymoon. (talk about fireworks)

 

[luckydog71]

It is hard for me to understand this insanity. It makes me uneasy, watching the conflict escalate. It makes me laugh hearing America calling for restraint. It makes me sick to hear our prime minister voice his support for Israel after 3 generations in one Canadian family in Lebanon were murdered indiscriminately. I'm tired of the propaganda.

I have heard this hypothetical question asked the other way.....but....

What would you do if a militant group was in Buffalo firing rockets into T.O.

You ask the US gov't to do something and they don't.

At what point would you be willing to fire back?

When Israel withdrew from Gaza and drew back from Lebanon, that was the compromise the RoW said would bring peace to Israel. They were wrong.

The best thing that can happen for the region is a total annihilation of one side by the other.

I do feel sorry for the innocent bystanders. They all need to get out while they can.

 

[nyx]

noble shepherds of Hezbollah... holy dogshit man You completely misunderstood me. Just because I am tired of politics and religion running tank treads over human bodies and disguising the atrocity with the rhetoric of collatoral damage doesn't mean I got my head stuck in the cinnamon scented sand so that I don't hear the opinions of others.

I sympathize with neither party. I just get pissed off seeing photos of dead kids. Kids are just kids, whether Israeli or Lebanese. Maybe I just need some big brass balls and the ability to say fuck em, they lived there they deserved to die.

Thanks for your comments LuckyDog. You are right, there is no simple answer to this mess and perhaps mutual annihilation will be the final curtain. I wasn't trying to create a perfect resonance of my own soliloquy, just voice my disgust at it all.

 

[sdw]

The Neo Cons who are Bush II’s advisors have a long history of telling outright lies.

Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld were involved in Richard Nixon’s administration. When Nixon and Kissenger were trying to build détente with the USSR and signed the first treaty to reduce nuclear weapons, Cheney and Rumsfeld got busy.

Rumsfeld started up Committee B which took the available intelligence and tried to make it say that the USSR had hidden weapons that still can’t be built with today’s technology.

When the CIA and other Intelligence Agencies testified that the Committee B report was a complete fabrication, the battle was joined.

Cheney and Rumsfeld became part of the Freedom Committee which was how Ronald Regan gained the profile to make a run for president.

Once they were part of Regan’s administration, they basically dismantled the CIA’s human intelligence ability in favor of electronic and satellite intelligence that could be more easily manipulated without leaving witnesses.

Because of their political success, Bush I and Bush II both needed the Neo Cons to make successful runs for the presidency.

The reason for their success is their ability to ensure that it is easy for Republicans to vote, (easy to register, lots of voting machines) and hard for Democrats to vote. (hard to register, disqualify registered voters, few voting machines)

Most people won’t stand in line for 8 hours to vote. In the heavily Democrat counties in Florida and Ohio, the Neo Cons ensured that is what was necessary to vote.

The Mid East is one of the most conquered areas of the world. Romans, Mongols, Crusades, Brits, French and Italians to name a few.

The Brits seized Egypt and Palestine in order to build the Suez Canal and were among the first to explore for and find oil.

After the Brit Empire was lost after WWII and Israel proved that terrorism worked by partitioning Palestine, the UN basically drew line on maps and the current nations of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc were created from the old Arab League.

I have supplied a link to a piece written by Jerry Pournelle who wrote Strategy of Technology, one of the texts used in the War College. Jerry Pournelle was involved with Boeing developing aircraft, the space race, advisor to Ronald Regan, politics in California and currently is best known for his Science Fiction.



http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/view423.html

 

[rollerboy]

noble shepherds of Hezbollah... holy dogshit man You completely misunderstood me. Just because I am tired of politics and religion running tank treads over human bodies and disguising the atrocity with the rhetoric of collatoral damage doesn't mean I got my head stuck in the cinnamon scented sand so that I don't hear the opinions of others.

I sympathize with neither party. I just get pissed off seeing photos of dead kids. Kids are just kids, whether Israeli or Lebanese. Maybe I just need some big brass balls and the ability to say fuck em, they lived there they deserved to die.

Thanks for your comments LuckyDog. You are right, there is no simple answer to this mess and perhaps mutual annihilation will be the final curtain. I wasn't trying to create a perfect resonance of my own soliloquy, just voice my disgust at it all.

Who are you getting pissed at? Both sides have spilt innocent blood.

Are you gonna solve anything with your pious rage and disgust? What the hell do you expect the political leaders to say, how dare they call for restraint?

Your own rhetoric is as tired, bogus, insulting, pointless and demeaning as any of the rest of it. You think that nobody else cares about children dying? You think the Israelis and Hezbollah are fighting and dying because they don't love their children?

And believe it or not, you have chosen a side. You've come down on the side which denies the right of Israel to exist. That's what they are fighting for. Their children are dying, too. Hezbollah began this recent escalation by launching a military incursion into Israel, killing Israeli soldiers and kidnapping two, firing rocket barrages deep into Israel. Yet you chose to blame Israel for indiscriminate murder, and focus soley on innocent Lebanese lives lost in the counteroffensive.

The most callous, disheartening aspect of your rhetoric is your blatant and manipulative use of dead children to emotionalize the debate. Which, clearly, you have succeeded in doing.

 

[OTBn]

Although it befuddles me, I still can't fathom why any surrounding nation in the Middle East would pick a fight with the Israelis. They have their weapons at the ready, and can go into action overnight. Nowadays, they have smart weapons acquired from the Americans, and they can surgically strike any target, and they are doing it.

Ya, that surgical strike stuff - seems to be working just fine. Ah yes, the casualties of war... better roll out the collateral damage talking points.

... 3 generations in one Canadian family in Lebanon were murdered indiscriminately.
.
.
.
... dead people. Dead kids. Dead families. Bodies mangled. Grief and blood. Homes destroyed. Children orphaned.

An eight year old enemy of the peace...
A baby terrorist...
Another Lebanese terrorist
This is not a child, it is a casualty of war.

 

[OTBn]

HEY NOW....THAT'S UNSUBSTANTIATED INNUENDO...STOP IT!

Like a one-trick pony.

 

[nyx]

You are so right RollerBoy. I forgot that in these times, yer either with us or against us: its all black and white. I need an attitude adjustment. I will watch more CNN.

Be well.

 

[hornyitalian06]

I do not agree that the Canadian taxpayer should have to pay for the return of people with dual citizenship (Lebanese/Canadian)who stranded in Lebanon. Yes the Canadian government should provide safe passage for these people but these people should have repay the Canadian government for the costs involved with this evacuation from war torn area.
You should know better that there is unrest the middle east and will always be there. Both sides/countries cannot agree on anything.
Canadian taxpayer should only be responsible to return Canadian citizens when it involves mother nature, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, etc.
This going festure into a full war including Iran and Syria who have been supplying arms, terrorists and other information.

 

[georgebushmoron]

Too fucking bad. For some time all hell has been breaking loose in the middle east and they were dumb enough to be there? Oh well, they gambled and lost. And what's with all these other fucks over there who's families back here are lambasting the Canadian and U.S. feds for not getting them out of there quicker? Fuck 'em, they shouldn't even be there in the first place and now it's the taxpayer$ problem.

BTW, Israel has been doing the States dirty work for eons...it's about time they got whacked but it won't happen this time. Not yet.

Some people have Canadian or American citizenship but the families they come from, as well as other relatives, live in places like Lebanon. It's not easy to sponsor even your close family members, and even in the easiest cases, it takes quite a bit of time. Furthermore, you need money to get out of those places to live in a 1st world country like the US or Canada. Once they convert their money to greenbacks or loons they can't afford to live here. Furthermore, immigration is not as loose as it once was. So while they should not be lambasting our governments for getting them out, you really ought to see that if they had any real choice, they would have left. After all, nobody wants to die like that.

 

[gauntlet99]

Letter to a casualty of the Israeli war

Carly,

Thanks for sharing your experiences from this part of the world. I was moved by your openness and eloquence.

I am in Vancouver, Canada right now. Yesterday's paper had the pictures of four Canadian children who were killed during an Israeli bombing attack in Lebanaon. Seven innocent Canadian were killed in all.

In another writing you ask whether there is a solution... I presume you mean peaceful solution. The short hard answer is no.

I am not a pessimist. I love life and have a very positive outlook.

The brutal truth about the mideast conflict is that there is no compromise and peaceful solution to this war of attrition. Israel is one of the most heavily armed countries in the world...it has compulsory military service for every young woman and man...everyone has been indoctrinated into a fortress mentality (and for good reason). Israel has the benefit of overwhelmingly superior military technology courtesy of the United States... it even has nuclear weapons but won't admit it. You don't hear about Hezbollah bombers attacking illegal Israeli setttlements in the West Bank do you. The United States and its only remaining major ally, Mr. Blair, will not support any cease fire with outside military intervention, as proposed by the majority of the countries in the area. They say that Israel has a right to defend itself.

But this is just spin and cynicism. They know damn well that this position simply buys Israel more time to bomb the hell out of Hezbollah and the Palestinians and innocent bystanders who might be in their way. They feel that the Palestinians are being too stubborn and proud to compromise....they should just be good third world people and just give in to the will and domination of western democracy and capitalistic values. After all it's for their own good. Why can't they see that?

Time is running against the Palestinians. The terrorist bombings and missiles are just acts of desperation. Acts of desperation against a not so subtle program of genocide. Palestinians and, most poignantly, young Palestinians, know they have no future but war and death.

It's becoming a very dangerous threat to world peace. It's like watching a scrawny third world person getting the shit kicked out of him in his own home. How much of this will the world tolerate? How long will Russia and China stay on the sidelines militarily? How long before the Arab states get their shit together and try to rescue their brothers and sisters? Bush's policies have destabilized an already unstable area and he has surrounded himself with hardline advisers that lack the sense of realpolitik necessary to moderate the situation.

Having said that, I refuse to give in to depression and negativity. This is life. Things that are occurring now are the inevitable consequences of things that happened earlier. Live your life without desire and attachment, especially for those things that you have absolutley no control over.

Have a nice day.

euripides

 

[westwoody]

You ask the US gov't to do something and they don't.

This is a flawed analogy:the US armed forces have the best equipment and training and are most likely to follow orders from civilian leaders.. If the US did nothing to stop the missilies it would be by their choice. The Lebanese army is fractious, poorly equipped, and would be just as likely to turn on their elected civilian commanders as the Hezbollah. The Lebanese government is not powerful enough to take on the Hezbollah.
To extend your analogy to the Israeli actions:if I get mugged in downtown Vancouver by an American citizen, would an appropriate response be putting a bomb in Seattle's airport? Israel has bombed the airport, and killed innocent travellers, how does that harm Hezbollah? It actually strengthens Hezbollah and Hamas.
If Israel has a problem with Hezbollah deal with it, but don't blame-and punish- everyone in Lebanon for the actions of Hezbollah. The Lebanese have just regained a small amount of control over their country after years of Syrian occupation, most Lebanese only want to be left alone to rebuild their homeland. The Israelis are converting peaceful people into Hezbollah sympathisers and Jew haters.

 

[gauntlet99]

That is certainly the downside of their reaction. But why is Hamas and Hezbollah kidnapping their soldiers, they know before even doing it there are going to be negative consequences?

Acts of desperation.

Possibly bring other countires into the conflict to support the hopelessly outgunned Palestinian side.

 

[Rain Man]

Open letter to Israeli PM

Thanks for sharing your experiences from this part of the world. I was moved by your openness and eloquence…………………… Israel has the benefit of overwhelmingly superior military …………………But this is just spin and cynicism…….It's becoming a very dangerous threat to world peace…….Things that are occurring now are the inevitable consequences of things that happened earlier. Live your life without desire and attachment, especially for those things that you have absolutely no control over.

Have a nice day.

Euripides

There are three classes of citizens. The first are the rich, who are indolent and yet always crave more. The second are the poor, who have nothing, are full of envy, hate the rich, and are easily led by demagogues. Between the two extremes lie those who make the state secure and uphold the laws.

Ehud,

Thanks for sharing your experiences from this part of the world. I was moved by your openness and eloquence.

I am in Vancouver, Canada right now. Although rockets and suicide bombings have killed Israel’s children for years, we are unable to publish such pictures. You must understand that it is only the Arab and Islamic tragedies that our people are interested in.

In another writing you ask whether there is a solution... I presume you mean peaceful solution. The short hard answer is no.

I am not a pessimist. I love life and have a very positive outlook.

The brutal truth about the Mideast conflict is that there is no compromise and peaceful solution to this war of attrition. Enemies dedicated to its destruction surround Israel. It has been a hard lesson but no one in the world will protect you but yourselves. You will be attacked and attacked regardless of what your country does. Every time anyone thinks that you are weak they will attack. If you respond to protect yourself, everyone in the world to tell you that you are in the wrong. The UN will issue resolutions telling you not to protect yourself. You will be attacked by not one country but by every neighbour that you have. If that doesn’t work, the Arab nations will sponsor suicide bombers to blow up your restaurants, shopping malls and tourist hotels.

You can withdraw from border areas to try to establish peace but the only difference will be that your enemies are now closer to you. You will have the support of very few countries in the world. Those European countries that should be clearly aware of the persecution that your people have endured will be the first ones to condemn you.

How long will you endure? You do not have the right to defend yourself and your people. Your neighbours will threaten to wipe you off the map. The only good Jew is a dead Jew they will say. This is a continuation of the way the world must be.


Having said that, I refuse to give in to depression and negativity. This is life. Things that are occurring now are the inevitable consequences of things that happened earlier. Live your life without desire and attachment, especially for those things that you have absolutely no control over.

Have a nice day.

 

[The Lizard King]

So while they should not be lambasting our governments for getting them out, you really ought to see that if they had any real choice, they would have left.

I understand what you're saying but these are Canadian citizens, up to 50,000 of them. That's not simply a few people left stranded for whatever reason, it's an amount of people the size of the population of Chilliwack.
http://www.citypopulation.de/Canada-BritishColumbia.html
Why are they there when the whole region has been a worse mess than usual for the 3+ years since the U.S. invaded Iraq? That's not too smart. They are no good to their kin while there unless they can either bring them back with them or they are prepared to arm themselves and fight when the inevitable hostilities break out. As shitty as it sounds, it's not Canada's fault they chose to go there and leave the relative safety of Canada. Too bad, pay your own way home.

 

[dirtydan]

1. the u.s pays 25% of the operating budget of the u.n

Fine. There was a time not long ago that US dues to the UN were very much in arrears.

2.last time i had checked we didnt have to ask anyones permission to take care of business.

Yah what the fuck, eh? It's just running over another country. It's not like the US hasn't done it before.

3. at least get your facts straifght dd no one in the present administration has ever said nor have they ever implied that there was a link between 9/11 and Iraq. the person who came closest to it was cheny when asked the question if there was a link he said he didnt know.

Well dude, the same advice right back at you. Did I say that some one in the Bush administration said such a thing? Yes or no? Nevertheless the same administration had no problem in letting people think there was an Iraqi connection to 9-11.

the facts are that iraq was going to have the sanctions lifted by the u.n within the year, thanks to their well placed bribery of 3/5 of the permanent members of the security concil(sp) the 3 being france, russia and china and to lesser degree germany, so even if they didnt have wmds at the time of invasion which i think is still debateable (see syria) in no time they would have been able to reconstitute them in a heart beat.

The fact is, and given you want me to keep the facts straight, , is Iraq no longer had WMD's. Dispite all of rhetoric and so-called evidence the US claimed to have it was all complete and utter bullshit. The war was predicated on a lie.

Bush naever said there was an imminent dangerfrom iraq but that we must strike before the danger becomes imminent because then it is to late. But that is ancient history.

And it is the reasoning of an idiot, Bush not you. Such a reason can be used to completely justify the invasion of any country. All a country has to say to the world community is my neighbour might build up his military so I better whack him now.

Let's face the facts, Republican types are the ones most quick to make comparisons between Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany with any other country they are told by other Repubican types that its America's enemy. Yet using the excuse of "he might attack me in the future" ain't so far off of Germany's reasoning for invading Poland in '39.

what i objectect to and i think ld objects to is that everything is the u.s fault or isreal, there was a post earlier that said or implied that the middle east was a peaceful place before isreal was put there, that person is so full of it, he really needs to go back to history class.

Indeed, much of the voilence in the ME prior to '47 was instigated by western countries looking to acquire and maintain control of the oil resources.

the reason fopr the crusades is because the muslim hordes invaded isreal and captured jeruselum and butchered alot aof people and those left standing were converted ro islam. so you had the crusades, isant it amazing how that little fact is always left out of the discussion.

The last Crusade was what 800 years ago? I think it's ok now to let it go.

by all accounts kerry should have wiped the floor in the 04 elections but democrats being democrats stole defeat from the jaws of victory as they will do in the mid terms all politics are local and if the only thing you have to offer is negativity you will lose. the demos have nothing to offer, they have no platform they dont even give us a reasonable alternative. IMHO

Well if the Democrats launched a campaign to degrade the Purple Heart the Republicans would so full of bluster that they would be constantly premature cumming for the entire election campaign. It was revolting in 04 for those fuckwad scumbags to have attacked the Purple Heart via Kerry. It was just a revolting to watch a shithead like Kerry be so fucking feeble in counter attacking the Republican slander. Kerry lost because of himself and editorial cartoonist dream was shattered.

 

[dirtydan]

I have heard this hypothetical question asked the other way.....but....

What would you do if a militant group was in Buffalo firing rockets into T.O.

You ask the US gov't to do something and they don't.

At what point would you be willing to fire back?

When Israel withdrew from Gaza and drew back from Lebanon, that was the compromise the RoW said would bring peace to Israel. They were wrong.

The best thing that can happen for the region is a total annihilation of one side by the other.

I do feel sorry for the innocent bystanders. They all need to get out while they can.

Once again highly simplistic LD. Do consider even the last 35 years of Lebanese history and compare that to the last 35 years of history of the US and Canada. Here's a hint: 1978, 1982, and 2006.

 

[Hand_Solo]

It was allegedly a Chinese Silkworm missile that hit the Israeli gunboat.

Hizballah seriously damaged a Saar 5-class missile ship named the "Spear" that was helping to enforce Israel's blockade of Lebanon on 14 July 2006. One Israeli sailor was killed and three were initially missing after the attack. Israel initially believed that an aerial drone armed with explosives hit the warship, but it became clear that Hizballah had used an Iranian-made C-802 cruise missile to strike the vessel. Another Hizballah radar-guided anti-ship missile hit and sank a nearby Cambodian merchant ship around the time the Spear was struck. Twelve Egyptian sailors were pulled from the water by passing ships

http://www.globalsecurity.org/index.html

This site has some good info about who has what etc..