Canada's New Projects

storm rider

Banned
Dec 6, 2008
2,542
7
0
Calgary
If anyone is interested, CPAC is broadcasting the emergency debate in the Commons right now.

I haven't seen either the Liberal or Conservative leaders and it's basically a few backbench Liberals debating with Elizabeth May and a few of the NDP.

Still, the Greens and NDP are raising some good points about Kinder Morgan and their lousy record of cleanup after one of their pipelines burst.
Just to get specific was that pipeline that "burst" the Kinder Morgan pipeline to BC from Alberta that has been in the ground for 50 years?Have there been any nasty stupid tanker accidents on the BC coast like the Valdez accident in Alaska when the ships captain was shit faced drunk?I bet the NDP and the shrill voiced nutjob Green MP Elizabeth May(hypocrite of the first class) are not talking about FACTS.....just more like "what if's"

SR
 

Ray

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2005
1,253
346
83
vancouver
I would take the pipeline protesters more seriously if they had the same enthusiasm and rallied to ban foreign oil from entering our country. But they're not. They're just trying to cripple Canada's economy.
 

Damaged

New member
May 2, 2005
436
1
0
There is a long history of pipeline leaks, that's a fact that can't be disputed. It's laughable when SR tries to say that there has been no leaks on the existing pipeline, there has, lots of them. Also laughable is when SR insinuates that since the pipeline has been around for 50 years that it is safe. A lot of leaks have happened on older pipelines that weaken and then burst.

That said I am for the pipeline expansion. Fact is we need oil and that isn't going to change overnight. What we need to do is put conditions in place to make response to a spill the best it can be and that clean up would happen as fast as possible.

Just because "we" haven't had a tanker spill is no reason not to worry about it. It only takes one big spill to destroy the coast. Argument like "BC has never had a tanker spill" are worthless. What will the likes of SR say when one does happen? Oh well at least Alberta made some money? If Alberta is so sure that a spill won't happen or won't be an issue then underwrite a guarantee that you'll cover 100% of immediate cleanup costs and a fine equal to the clean up costs.

Honestly the attitudes of the Albertans in this thread are pathetic.
 

badbadboy

Well-known member
Nov 2, 2006
9,544
306
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In Lust Mostly
Again I repeat there has been zero commitment as to which Govt will pay what share should a spill occur in BC. BC's cut out the deal is 10% and 50 yes Fifty full time jobs and zero commitment from Feds nor AB to cough up any money if a spill were to occur.

Links provided below are about Kinder Morgan, Enron, Enbridge, Keystone XL - all carriers of Alberta Ft McMurray Bitumen.


From Huffington Post


Kinder Morgan CEO Richard Kinder is in fact a former Enron executive and almost became its CEO. The Wall Street Journal once called him "the luckiest ex Enron employee" because Jeffrey Skilling, who became the CEO instead of Kinder, is now in the midst of a 24-year prison sentence.

Kinder started Kinder Morgan with his 20 million dollar severance package from Enron, and took with him a division for the company, Enron Liquid Pipelines LLP. Kinder Morgan was the originally named Enron Liquid Pipelines LLP. Richard Kinder is now one of the richest people in the world, with over 9 billion dollars in personal net wealth. Given this shoddy history, British Columbians need to subject his whole business model to scrutiny.

Kinder Morgan's pipeline plans in B.C. need public debate: Two opportunities to do just that

All of this just underlines the need for vigorous public debate and discussion about Kinder Morgan's plans for B.C.

I'm no Wall Street investment banker, but what this latest report about Kinder Morgan makes clear is that this corporate giant has one thing in mind when it acquires and builds new pipelines: its own bottom line. And it looks like slashing maintenance costs is its standard business practice. That is reckless and short-term profiteering. This may be part of the reason why Carl Weimer of the US-based Pipeline Safety Trust called Kinder Morgan the "poster child of pipeline problems." What we need in B.C. is responsible, long-term economic investment.

When Kinder Morgan's House of Cards comes crashing down, we don't want B.C.'s environment and economy to be part of the collateral damage.

Kalamazoo River spill with diluted bitumen (Enbridge) added because its an interesting study how difficult it was to remove the bitumen from ponds, river and river banks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_River_oil_spill


https://thetyee.ca/News/2010/07/31/EnbridgeDirtyDozen/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2002/05/06/enron-pipeline-leaves-scar-on-south-america/dc7be14e-2a6d-4562-a894-cc1e00a62ea9/?utm_term=.cca007633c8b

Transmountain's Spill History since 1961

https://www.transmountain.com/spill-history

Transmountain's spill in a Burnaby Neighbourhood in 2007.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/3-companies-plead-guilty-to-burnaby-oil-spill-1.1005862

Kinder Morgan's spill in Jasper National Park

https://canadians.org/blog/kinder-morgan-pipeline-has-spilled-six-times-jasper-national-park

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/ben-west/enron-kinder-morgan_b_3908063.html

Keystone XL spill in Dakotas

http://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/361093-another-keystone-oil-spill-another-obvious-reason-to-fund-the-epa

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/11/14/analysis/how-scandal-plagued-company-gave-birth-kinder-morgan

Exxon Valdez - 25 years later.

https://www.cnn.com/2014/03/23/opinion/holleman-exxon-valdez-anniversary/index.html
 

overdone

Banned
Apr 26, 2007
1,826
442
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we don't want B.C.'s environment and economy to be part of the collateral damage
then you should start acting like the other hypocrite province in Canada, Que

and start shipping those tankers from the 3rd world despots, Saudi, Venezuela, Nigeria, Iran, Iraq

stop taking our gasoline, oil, jet fuel, other products

and quit shipping your Nat gas thru Alberta too

try and build a new refinery in the lower mainland, lol, would love to see your eco nuts pop a vein over that

afterall your going to get those LNG plants built, sometime, maybe, hopefully, eventually :boink:

with the new law our NDP are passing, hopefully those rail cars, trucks full of gasoline, diesel start flowing, so we can get nothing but oil thru the remaining pipe

that'll be safe, leak smeak
 

80watts

Well-known member
May 20, 2004
3,342
1,266
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Victoria
Maybe Canada can reinvent the witch-hunt... oops Nazi Germany already did that... see what happened there..

If someone states bad facts, point them out and/or post a reference for that correction... nobody's perfect...

Renewable energy is the wave of the now and future. Everybody should be thinking if I build this, where does the energy comes from? Where does that clean water come from. Where does the waste go to?

Today's world is and should be focused on renewable energy and recycling waste. Unfortunately the economy depends a lot on oil/gas economy. Recycling efficiency is atrocious, cause we still put things in the landfill.

Transit routes to move mass population sucks, we depend on oil polluting cars for that. The skytrain in Vancouver was built in the early 80's. Nothings been built out to Chilliwack, all you have to do is look at the #1 Hwy and see the large amount of traffic on it. Overall transit sucks. Dumb ass hwy planners build traffic lights instead of overpasses because its cheaper...

Most people would take the transit system if it was efficient and cheap to use. If they could park their car near by in a parkcade that did't cost an arm and leg.
 

storm rider

Banned
Dec 6, 2008
2,542
7
0
Calgary
Maybe Canada can reinvent the witch-hunt... oops Nazi Germany already did that... see what happened there..

If someone states bad facts, point them out and/or post a reference for that correction... nobody's perfect...

Renewable energy is the wave of the now and future. Everybody should be thinking if I build this, where does the energy comes from? Where does that clean water come from. Where does the waste go to?

Today's world is and should be focused on renewable energy and recycling waste. Unfortunately the economy depends a lot on oil/gas economy. Recycling efficiency is atrocious, cause we still put things in the landfill.

Transit routes to move mass population sucks, we depend on oil polluting cars for that. The skytrain in Vancouver was built in the early 80's. Nothings been built out to Chilliwack, all you have to do is look at the #1 Hwy and see the large amount of traffic on it. Overall transit sucks. Dumb ass hwy planners build traffic lights instead of overpasses because its cheaper...

Most people would take the transit system if it was efficient and cheap to use. If they could park their car near by in a parkcade that did't cost an arm and leg.
Yeah I can just imagine how well the Skytrain would function if it actually went to Chilliwack(which is just not doable) and it would be completely fucked as the trains would be full before they got to Langley and then it would progress to people in Langley getting on the trains as they go east to Chilliwack to get a seat and then ride back through Langley on the way to metro Vancouver.

The very idea of building the Skytrain out to Chilliwack is just sheer idiotic.

When I moved back to Canada in the spring of 1989 after my father and I were looking at houses and he had 50 grand in cash we opted for Chilliwack as he got to buy a 2 bedroom bungalo with a monster sized lot for 34 grand and own it free and clear.Back then there were a considerable amount of people who were owning a home in Chilliwack and commuting to work in the GVRD just because of the price difference in real estate.

Personally I really liked Chilliwack.It was close to the USA for day trips and the winters were mild.It was a small city that was growing and the option of a 20 minute drive to go to Cultus Lake on a hot sunny summer day was something I enjoyed a great many times.

Sadly though now Chilliwack is over run with homeless people and the once proud downtown is something like east Hastings all thanks to the pushing out of the homeless via the winter olympics....all of them just flooded into the Fraser Valley.

SR
 

Ray

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2005
1,253
346
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vancouver
Yeah I can just imagine how well the Skytrain would function if it actually went to Chilliwack(which is just not doable) and it would be completely fucked as the trains would be full before they got to Langley and then it would progress to people in Langley getting on the trains as they go east to Chilliwack to get a seat and then ride back through Langley on the way to metro Vancouver.

The very idea of building the Skytrain out to Chilliwack is just sheer idiotic.
It'll probably have more than 1 car. Just a thought...
 

FreeG

Well-known member
Dec 25, 2015
549
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63
If/when Alberta reduces gasoline shipment to BC, we can still get it from Washington (tho at a higher price, from what I recall).

I agree with the earlier post that the pipeline is a great deal for Alberta - they get the profits, while BC gets the risk. The notion that pipelines don't leak or tankers don't leak is ludicrous. A pipeline leaked in Northern US just a few months ago. The company didn't know how much had leaked (it was a remote area).

Double-hulled tankers have reduced risk of losing their cargo (oil) but its not zero risk - a severe hit on rocks can puncture both hulls. A collision with another ship (as recently occurred off the coast of China) can still cause severe damage/death/fire. Take a look at the pictures of the FITZGERALD and MCCAIN, two US destroyers hit by the bulbous bows of tankers. These were well-sensored warships, relatively highly-maneuverable, and both got hit (for slightly different reasons) and the tankers' bows punched FEET into each hull. A double-hulled tanker would have been similarly damaged, only with the result being the tank contents would flow into the water - they're not designed for that type of damage and don't have the crew to handle it.

The threat to killer whales isn't collision - you're right that an orca can run circles around almost anything man-made. Its the general noise from the machinery that interferes with their lives and potential impact to salmon. Imagine trying to eat/live with throbbing vibrations reverberating thru your skull 24/7 - that's the primary concern with increased shipping noises in these areas. Those noises have improved over time (shipping companies realized that quieter engines tend to be more reliable, which costs less and require less crew) but tripling the shipping triples the noise.

Tripling the ships is a REAL concern - it would just be a matter of WHEN an accident is going to occur. Seattle/Tacoma can handle much more because their bays are quite open and accessible - lots of ships can flow in and out w/ plenty of room to maneuver. The straits up to Vancouver wind thru rocky passes that are invitations to mistakes. BC Ferries go thru a tight pass many times a day, but in ships that are AT MOST 20% as big as a tanker and far more maneuverable and well-manned (Transport Canada is more stringent on manning). The ships also require pilots - triple the ships requires triple the pilots and these guys/gals don't grow on trees or qualify with a few runs.

Kinder Morgan has to have some robust contingency plans before allowed to operate the pipeline and Alberta should also be stepping up to the plate, financially and thru planning.

That being said, the pipeline is most likely a necessity to keep Alberta/Canada competitive for the next decade. I truly believe renewable energy and other sources are the future, BUT there's NO WAY oil is going anywhere anytime soon! Canada may as well be the producer and make some money from it and have some international leverage. I sympathize with the Green party and environmentalists, but also agree they should set their sights on coal export, salmon fish farms, and other issues first. Drawing a line in the sand on pipelines reduces their credibility and won't gain them much support by the millions employed in oil/gas industry.
 

80watts

Well-known member
May 20, 2004
3,342
1,266
113
Victoria
Maybe bullet trains then..

The people driving that road, don't know how to drive, they get stuck in the passing lane at 10 km/h over the speed limit and drive on into la la land. Hwy has signs that say keep right except to pass. Passing to me mean that I do it quickly. Then there are the people that drive 2 car lengths behind the car infront of them.

In the next 30 year, the transit will have to build something that is fast, and can deliver people from Chilliwack to Vancouver, cause there is nowhere to put the cars on the road. Maybe 6 lane the trans Canada. Probably cheaper to put in rapid transit.

transit system would have to accommodate all air ports, city centers, and major shopping malls.. Think big or go home, because it will be a disaster if people don't start thinking that way.
 

rlock

Well-known member
May 20, 2015
2,281
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I sympathize with the Green party and environmentalists, but also agree they should set their sights on coal export, salmon fish farms, and other issues first. Drawing a line in the sand on pipelines reduces their credibility and won't gain them much support by the millions employed in oil/gas industry.
The Greens are on record as being against the export of thermal coal through BC, and against LNG exports. They are definitely against the fish farms too, since those are killing the wild salmon with diseases. It's not like the Greens have been slack on this other stuff, they are consistent.
The NDP much less so. If you remember, Glen Clark was no friend of environmentalism, and it was actually Gordon Campbell who brought in the carbon tax. (Christy Clark would have loved to kill it, but she didn't dare.)


In the next 30 year, the transit will have to build something that is fast, and can deliver people from Chilliwack to Vancouver, cause there is nowhere to put the cars on the road. Maybe 6 lane the trans Canada. Probably cheaper to put in rapid transit.

transit system would have to accommodate all air ports, city centers, and major shopping malls.. Think big or go home, because it will be a disaster if people don't start thinking that way.

They could use conventional rail to move people. Rail used to dominate here, several decades ago before rail tracks were sidelined to make way for roads & freeways.

If you look at Ontario, they have the Go Train. If you look at Paris, they have their Metro covering close to the city centre, but they also have the RER trains to get to and from the farther suburbs.

The Lower Mainland could do the same, with a bit in ingenuity and effort. The Westcoast Express could run all day, and there could be another major rail line south of the Fraser to go to Chilliwack, maybe even Hope.
Basically, passenger rail returns to dominance after being out of fashion since the end of WW2.
 
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