Canada
- Thread starter 80watts
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Regardless of the political demographic of this country. Democracy itself is the epitome of socialism
as we have come to know it here. We are a socialist society after all.
Unless you take it a step further and go back to what used to be, U.S.S.R. They called that Socialism.
It all depends on how a person confuses socialism with communism. The two are quite different really.
One type of socialism takes everything away from the people and gives them nothing in return.
IE Communist Socialism like N. Korea, China and what used to be USSR.
The Socialism we have here in Canada and in the US, depending on who holds the reigns, gives the people
a broad spectrum of social values like Welfare, Unemployment Insurance, Medical care,
UNIONS (if you are lucky enough to belong to one) and so on.
Hope I at least helped answer some of your questions?
......................QM'r
as we have come to know it here. We are a socialist society after all.
Unless you take it a step further and go back to what used to be, U.S.S.R. They called that Socialism.
It all depends on how a person confuses socialism with communism. The two are quite different really.
One type of socialism takes everything away from the people and gives them nothing in return.
IE Communist Socialism like N. Korea, China and what used to be USSR.
The Socialism we have here in Canada and in the US, depending on who holds the reigns, gives the people
a broad spectrum of social values like Welfare, Unemployment Insurance, Medical care,
UNIONS (if you are lucky enough to belong to one) and so on.
Hope I at least helped answer some of your questions?
......................QM'r
IMO unions are outdated and are more of a drag on the economy with their inflated costs to perform the work related to their fields.
Yes- pension plans are a nice incentive. However, the taxpayer ultimately carries much of this burden.
And the union environment tends to be static, with performance being along a median- self starters and over-achievers are discouraged.
Just my experience and observations.
Two key components of socialism are public ownership of the means of production and administration of the distribution of goods. We have neither in Canada, we are capitalists.
Thanks to the availability of FOX News, Rebel Media and greasy Andrew Scheer, some right-wing Canadians are becoming as confused as right-wing Americans.
Canada is a capitalist country with a social safety net, just like every other first world nation.
Canada is a capitalist country with a social safety net, just like every other first world nation.
How?
One could argue that compared to other 'pure' socialist societies in the world, we are not Socialist. More of centrist democracy with the British parliamentary system.
Key components in our system that I am glad we have are Universal Health Care, Canada Pension Plan and the UI system. They are not perfect but do offer a minimum benefit for everyone whether or not they are capable of paying for it. I'm not sure what the percentages are in the USA now with the 'Affordable Care Act' but prior to it, roughly 30M Americans had no health care or had little coverage. It was common to lose one's home if hit with a significant health problem.
I support what others have said about unions in that they have negotiated significant employee benefits that can be seen filter down to non union employment.
Perhaps the beginning was National Health Care navigated by Tommy Douglas from the CCF (now known as NDP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas
Also, the implementation of the CPP by Liberal PM Lester Pearson.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Pension_Plan
The UI program came into effect in the 1930's during the Great Depression. It was a Conservative Govt of the day who were mirroring the US "The New Deal".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits#Canada
https://www.history.com/topics/new-deal
One could argue that compared to other 'pure' socialist societies in the world, we are not Socialist. More of centrist democracy with the British parliamentary system.
Key components in our system that I am glad we have are Universal Health Care, Canada Pension Plan and the UI system. They are not perfect but do offer a minimum benefit for everyone whether or not they are capable of paying for it. I'm not sure what the percentages are in the USA now with the 'Affordable Care Act' but prior to it, roughly 30M Americans had no health care or had little coverage. It was common to lose one's home if hit with a significant health problem.
I support what others have said about unions in that they have negotiated significant employee benefits that can be seen filter down to non union employment.
Perhaps the beginning was National Health Care navigated by Tommy Douglas from the CCF (now known as NDP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas
Also, the implementation of the CPP by Liberal PM Lester Pearson.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Pension_Plan
The UI program came into effect in the 1930's during the Great Depression. It was a Conservative Govt of the day who were mirroring the US "The New Deal".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits#Canada
https://www.history.com/topics/new-deal
Canada's isn't really a socialist country since socialists like to own the means of production. Socialism differs from communism in that communism will resort to violence to realize its ends. Canada doesn't own much means of production beyond raw materials. Canada is certainly a welfare state relying on government to bring the fruits of the land to the common people.
Socialism is the philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy.It's inherant nature is the EQUAL sharing of misery...Sir Winston Churchill.
Socialism is great until you run out of money....Margaret Thatcher.
The NDP are "Socialists".....and just a step right of Communists.Read the LEAP manifesto and one of the biggest platform planks of the LEAP manifesto is "wealth redistribution" which would come in all forms other than the obvious of confiscation of bank accounts etc.
A good example is real estate.Under the doctrine of the LEAP manifesto if a single guy owned say a 3 bedroom home in Vancouver well he does not need a 3 bedroom home since he is a single guy.The state would take it away from him(even though he paid for it) and GIVE it to a family and shove him into a prison cell like apartment because that is all he "needs" and the Socialist State knows whats best for him.
If you want to see how well Socialism works take a visit to Cuba outside of a resort and see how well off the average citizen is.....even better take a visit to Venezeuala.
SR
Socialism is great until you run out of money....Margaret Thatcher.
The NDP are "Socialists".....and just a step right of Communists.Read the LEAP manifesto and one of the biggest platform planks of the LEAP manifesto is "wealth redistribution" which would come in all forms other than the obvious of confiscation of bank accounts etc.
A good example is real estate.Under the doctrine of the LEAP manifesto if a single guy owned say a 3 bedroom home in Vancouver well he does not need a 3 bedroom home since he is a single guy.The state would take it away from him(even though he paid for it) and GIVE it to a family and shove him into a prison cell like apartment because that is all he "needs" and the Socialist State knows whats best for him.
If you want to see how well Socialism works take a visit to Cuba outside of a resort and see how well off the average citizen is.....even better take a visit to Venezeuala.
SR
I disagree. If you've ever work construction on a union site, " driven and self starters" rise to the top and get promoted. Dog fuckers do get hired but they're the first to get their pink slips on friday. Plus there's lots of training in unions.
I've worked non union as ayounger man ,worked my butt off but it was never appreciated,at least on a union job if you make the boss look good ,he'll let you slide on a Friday and even buy the first round.
I've worked non union as ayounger man ,worked my butt off but it was never appreciated,at least on a union job if you make the boss look good ,he'll let you slide on a Friday and even buy the first round.
You can also visit Sweden, Norway, France. Sure they have some problems but they sure ain’t Cuba or Venezuela! Many European countries benefit from their compact size, which makes it easier for social programs to run.
Union-bashing is definitely popular with the right. And why not? Get rid of unions and you can go back to the 1800s model of employment that benefits the upper 1% and shareholders: 6-7d workweeks, 12hr workdays, ZERO health and safety standards (initiated by unions, forced onto everyone by government), zero benefits upon firing (other than what’s in law). Everyone assumes private industry can do everything better but the only thing they tend to do better is make money, at the expense of quality, safety, and long-term sustainability (unless forced by those gosh-darn evil regulations, <spit!>). NA carmakers were notorious for shit quality for decades and everyone blamed UAW but they’ve since turned it around and are as good as anyone. Same with shipbuilders - Korea and China build more ships because they drive their workforce like robots. If we actually want to improve our nations quality of life, thats not the direction we should be heading! But with US and Can heading towards more contract-based employment and service industries, I agree with the previous poster: the middle class will continue to shrink and get squeezed dry.
Any failure by a unionized company to perform well is a failure in leadership from middle and upper level management, pure and simple. There ARE dead beats that DO get protected by unions, but again its the failure of mgmt to negotiate a healthy, robust agreement wth the union that allows that to occur.
Union-bashing is definitely popular with the right. And why not? Get rid of unions and you can go back to the 1800s model of employment that benefits the upper 1% and shareholders: 6-7d workweeks, 12hr workdays, ZERO health and safety standards (initiated by unions, forced onto everyone by government), zero benefits upon firing (other than what’s in law). Everyone assumes private industry can do everything better but the only thing they tend to do better is make money, at the expense of quality, safety, and long-term sustainability (unless forced by those gosh-darn evil regulations, <spit!>). NA carmakers were notorious for shit quality for decades and everyone blamed UAW but they’ve since turned it around and are as good as anyone. Same with shipbuilders - Korea and China build more ships because they drive their workforce like robots. If we actually want to improve our nations quality of life, thats not the direction we should be heading! But with US and Can heading towards more contract-based employment and service industries, I agree with the previous poster: the middle class will continue to shrink and get squeezed dry.
Any failure by a unionized company to perform well is a failure in leadership from middle and upper level management, pure and simple. There ARE dead beats that DO get protected by unions, but again its the failure of mgmt to negotiate a healthy, robust agreement wth the union that allows that to occur.
OK Mr.Smart guy I would like you to search the internet and include ALL Private corporations VS the Public Sector UNIONS that OFFER a lucrative DEFINED BENEFIT PENSION.....you wont fucking find a single one.Teck Resources treats it's employees well....they offer a defined CONTRIBUTION pension which these days is generous....Teck does not offer a defined BENEFIT pension and no Private Sector company does because they are not sustainable.....people live longer and draw more benefits and when those benefits are adjusted to inflation it is just worse.....the tax payers are the ones that pay for it.
SR
Of course they don’t: because they (the employers) benefit from 401k’s (or Canadian equivalent) over pensions - it’s all about what saves the employer money or makes money for the shareholders, not what’s best for the employee. The employer pays less into it and subsequently if it tanks, there’s less risk on the employer. Meanwhile, Joe and Jane Shmo have been steadily giving money to the company over the years thinking it’s guaranteed income then, boom, no retirement anymore. It’s investments in the stock exchange, bonds, etc, which is gambling in my opinion (especially since most non-index finds never beat the market consistently).
Going back to Cuba/Venezuela: they’re failed countries not because they’re socialist but because they were/are dictatorships (or close enough in practice). Chavez put all his buds in control of the state-run corporations, they took the money and allowed the companies to fail miserably. Cuba is a bit more complicated (it doesn’t help when the richest country in the world won’t trade with you for nearly 50 years) but it’s still a case where people can’t vote for change.
Going back to Cuba/Venezuela: they’re failed countries not because they’re socialist but because they were/are dictatorships (or close enough in practice). Chavez put all his buds in control of the state-run corporations, they took the money and allowed the companies to fail miserably. Cuba is a bit more complicated (it doesn’t help when the richest country in the world won’t trade with you for nearly 50 years) but it’s still a case where people can’t vote for change.
If you wish to use extreme examples to get your point across, then we could also point to the sheer number of homeless and the imprisoned to point out the failures of Capitalism.
The reality is a bit more complex. There are many factors involved in the collapse of Venezuela's economy. Brushing it off with a one-liner shows an inability to comprehend complex matters.
You throw around terms like 'communist' and 'socialist' quite freely, but I don't think you are fully aware of the definitions of these terms.
I am well aware.In Canada for instance during the last election the big "Socialist" issue that got blasted by the leftist media was about Syrian "refugees" and it devolved into a bidding war between the Lieberals/NDP about who would take the most and the Lieberals won the media controlled spin of public opinion.
All told the cost of bringing 50,000 Syrian "refugees" to Canada cost taxpayers 500 MILLION.....and at the same time the fucking Lieberal government is fucking over it's Vetrans for pensions and fighting them in court.Thus far the Lieberal government has spent 40 MILLION fighting Vetrans for what they are owed due to their service and how they became disabled etc....pretty fucking shamefull to SHIT on the people who fight for your country and then shower taxpayer money upon people that wont assimilate into Canadian society and also become a further burden upon taxpayers down the line.
Pretty sad that taxpayers get to pay for Socialist feel good crapulence because a dead kid washed up on a beach because his father was trying to illegally smuggle his family into a country and the people that SERVE in our armed forces get fucked over after doing their jobs.
SR
The providing of sanctuary to Syrian refugees is a result of Canada being a signatory to the 1951 UN Refugee convention.
http://www.unhcr.org/1951-refugee-convention.html
The shameful treatment of veterans is a separate and unrelated topic, one that has been ongoing regardless of which government has been in power, and regardless of the number of refugees supported.
http://www.unhcr.org/1951-refugee-convention.html
The shameful treatment of veterans is a separate and unrelated topic, one that has been ongoing regardless of which government has been in power, and regardless of the number of refugees supported.
^indeed! The US, even as it turns more and more anti-immigrant, and comes across as pro-military (and I found many of its citizens quite supportive of the military), is embarrassingly ill-funded to take care of its vets, especially those broken by over a decade of war. WAAAY too many PTSD related issues, WAAAY too little (or too poorly trained) support. Tack on a medical system that hands out opioids like candy and you quickly see how tragic these wars have been on so many levels.
You really can’t blame how a country treats its veterans on immigration policies. The issues started as soon as the first tours started returning from Stan and Iraq. But it is a valid analogy that in both cases (accepting a large number of immigrants and sending armies to war), both countries were absolutely negligent in long-term plans.
You really can’t blame how a country treats its veterans on immigration policies. The issues started as soon as the first tours started returning from Stan and Iraq. But it is a valid analogy that in both cases (accepting a large number of immigrants and sending armies to war), both countries were absolutely negligent in long-term plans.
Any agreement(s) by a previous government the present government can choose to ignore it. Like who is gonna take it to court. Nowadays and since the beginning of time the Canadian government has always been "a how to do it in a cheaper way". This will always be the case. Its about money.
Harper government was trying to consolidate the same services in different departments. The idea was good; the implementation was/is screwed due to lack of service and slow long waits and an individual position in the hierarchy.
I always thought that from early 70's the fed gov created the welfare vote.. People on welfare will continue to vote the socialist system in, in order to support themselves. There are 4th to 5th generations of people on welfare in this country. We bring in 50,000 refugees which will only add to this system in the future. Chances are that people on welfare will buy drugs and or alcohol with the money they get and forget about the children they have. So the children suffer. They grow up and repeat the cycle. the governments are trying new things to break this cycle, but it again take time and money. And as always what the government can afford to pay for these new ideas.
Harper government was trying to consolidate the same services in different departments. The idea was good; the implementation was/is screwed due to lack of service and slow long waits and an individual position in the hierarchy.
I always thought that from early 70's the fed gov created the welfare vote.. People on welfare will continue to vote the socialist system in, in order to support themselves. There are 4th to 5th generations of people on welfare in this country. We bring in 50,000 refugees which will only add to this system in the future. Chances are that people on welfare will buy drugs and or alcohol with the money they get and forget about the children they have. So the children suffer. They grow up and repeat the cycle. the governments are trying new things to break this cycle, but it again take time and money. And as always what the government can afford to pay for these new ideas.
Having served in the military and seen many different countries, I can assure you that our social safety net is a great deal. There are scammers at all levels of the public trough, and welfare recipients are no different. Cutting those social payments would result in desperate people looking for other resources to survive and they won't be above taking it from others. Any tax savings would be eaten up by the cost of increased security. Just look south of the border.
We don't provide social benefits because it's the right thing to do and that we care about our fellow citizens, even though we tell ourselves and anyone else who listens that is the reason. We do it because it is way more cost effective than defending ourselves from desperate people.
It is also a national insurance policy, because the majority of people in this country are only a couple of pay cheques from homelessness. A car accident with permanent injuries or a chronic disease will devastate most of us even with social health care (hospitals are free, drugs and ongoing support are not).
May I respectfully remind you that you are free to leave anytime and leave us socialist hordes to wallow in one of the most livable countries in the world.
We don't provide social benefits because it's the right thing to do and that we care about our fellow citizens, even though we tell ourselves and anyone else who listens that is the reason. We do it because it is way more cost effective than defending ourselves from desperate people.
It is also a national insurance policy, because the majority of people in this country are only a couple of pay cheques from homelessness. A car accident with permanent injuries or a chronic disease will devastate most of us even with social health care (hospitals are free, drugs and ongoing support are not).
May I respectfully remind you that you are free to leave anytime and leave us socialist hordes to wallow in one of the most livable countries in the world.
The taxes that goes to pensioners. Sometime ago a government decided to use the bulk of the pension fund to pay down debt. So instead of having an asset that earned money (interest) the pension payout now come directly from your taxes every year. Talk about short sightlessness... Despite warning not to touch the pension fund, they did anyway, because they are the government. So the lesson is you can't trust any politician, despite how honest he says he is. People minds act funny when it comes to money..
The problem is as a Canadian society, things are good because we just get by; we don't think about saving for the future. We keep electing politician that continually sell away the future of Canada to make quick riches for themselves and their friends. You see those big bank ads, saving for retirement at age 55. Most Canadian (I 'd estimate over 60% ) do not have enough money saved for retirement to live comfortably. These people will depend on the Canada Pension. Some even now go out get a parttime job, to help ends meet.
The pension plan rip-off, and the Albertan government payout of their Heiritage Fund, were quick political money hacks, that does not in anyway insure stability for Canada and its Citizens down the road into the future.
It is true your Great-Great- Grandchildren will be paying off, the debt governments are spending today. I like to think of it as child slavery. Born into debt, and having to pay for a lifetime of someone's else debt (well do you feel the same way; were still paying off the debt from 30 years ago).
At the same time we will be giving your descendants smoggy air, and a evermore deprived environment that ranges into extremes of weathering storms.
A good thing about all this a century ago people still died, and today we still do and in the future are descendants will continue to die; so nothing has changed. But we will give them a very heavy tax burden to carry, just to make our life easier... We will all die tax slaves.....
PS: Income tax did not come into law, untill 1972. In WW2 it was passed as a war measure act to help pay for the war. Some farmer was taken to court over failing to pay his taxes, he bought out his notice from WW2. So Parliment passed the income tax act in 1972.....
The problem is as a Canadian society, things are good because we just get by; we don't think about saving for the future. We keep electing politician that continually sell away the future of Canada to make quick riches for themselves and their friends. You see those big bank ads, saving for retirement at age 55. Most Canadian (I 'd estimate over 60% ) do not have enough money saved for retirement to live comfortably. These people will depend on the Canada Pension. Some even now go out get a parttime job, to help ends meet.
The pension plan rip-off, and the Albertan government payout of their Heiritage Fund, were quick political money hacks, that does not in anyway insure stability for Canada and its Citizens down the road into the future.
It is true your Great-Great- Grandchildren will be paying off, the debt governments are spending today. I like to think of it as child slavery. Born into debt, and having to pay for a lifetime of someone's else debt (well do you feel the same way; were still paying off the debt from 30 years ago).
At the same time we will be giving your descendants smoggy air, and a evermore deprived environment that ranges into extremes of weathering storms.
A good thing about all this a century ago people still died, and today we still do and in the future are descendants will continue to die; so nothing has changed. But we will give them a very heavy tax burden to carry, just to make our life easier... We will all die tax slaves.....
PS: Income tax did not come into law, untill 1972. In WW2 it was passed as a war measure act to help pay for the war. Some farmer was taken to court over failing to pay his taxes, he bought out his notice from WW2. So Parliment passed the income tax act in 1972.....
