Canada and First nations people going to War??

[jjinvan]

What about the recent purchase of $150-200 million in land on Vancouver Island from the bands for $500 million?

That adds up to a HECK OF A LOT of $$ per person in the bands in question.

But, somehow, it ends up be even more, in the hands of far fewer...

Yep, the FN are asking for the same status as provinces, for EACH BAND.

So, we'd have about 600 new provinces.

Wouldn't that be fun at the constitutional table?

And what about the 'fiscal imbalance' ? hoo boy.

 

[jjinvan]

By the way, as far as the whole 'living up to the old agreements' goes.

What about the fact that the leftie judges appointed by the liberals have tossed out MANY of those very old agreements because the FN didn't like them and thought they were unfair?

In several cases, the judges have actually ruled that since the FN say that they THOUGHT the deal said one thing, but it actually said something completely different, the government was bound to the incorrect interpretation of the deal the FN claim to have had, rather than the actual deal that was agreed upon, thus binding the government to a deal that they never agreed to.

That was a prime example of 'government by unelected judges'.

 

[maxxx24]

What about the recent purchase of $150-200 million in land on Vancouver Island from the bands for $500 million?

That adds up to a HECK OF A LOT of $$ per person in the bands in question.

But, somehow, it ends up be even more, in the hands of far fewer...

Yep, the FN are asking for the same status as provinces, for EACH BAND.

So, we'd have about 600 new provinces.

Wouldn't that be fun at the constitutional table?

And what about the 'fiscal imbalance' ? hoo boy.

Ummm, no they are not. All FNs as a whole have asked to be recognized as a Nation-and to and extent they have been recognized as a nation within a nation. Not familiar with the land sale out in Vancouver, but many of the ones I am familiar with are undevelopable land (from an economic pov) or are remote and not to practical to live. But again thats in some cases, not all. On average, it takes about 10 to 15 years to resolve any one land claim, one way or another. And everyone wonders why it is so backlogged. Well, at least thats is one reason.

Not all bands do a distribution, or split it all up between the members. Happens only for specific things and instances, infact many bands dont go the distribution route anymore as sometimes it does fuel addiction, or wasting of dollars, so trust accounts and the like are set up for members or the Nation. The CDN govt has a specific way that the money must be managed if a settlement is reached-very strict guidelines in fact. So again, the money or land is not all pissed away. So no, it does not add up to a lot of $$$ per person in how you try to twist it. But again there you go with claims with little to no truth. For the issue of wrong interpretation on claims, yeah, its that easy to have a judge go, oops, wrong ruling, its got to stand. especially after a ten year period of reasearch, examination, cross examinations, etc. Yeah very likely. How the hell often does that really happen, yet you imply its common practice in the judicial system.

 

[LaCreme]

What about the recent purchase of $150-200 million in land on Vancouver Island from the bands for $500 million?

That adds up to a HECK OF A LOT of $$ per person in the bands in question.

But, somehow, it ends up be even more, in the hands of far fewer...

Yep, the FN are asking for the same status as provinces, for EACH BAND.

So, we'd have about 600 new provinces.

Wouldn't that be fun at the constitutional table?

And what about the 'fiscal imbalance' ? hoo boy.

ah non , that seam to be more problem again..

 

[LaCreme]

complicate

By the way, as far as the whole 'living up to the old agreements' goes.

What about the fact that the leftie judges appointed by the liberals have tossed out MANY of those very old agreements because the FN didn't like them and thought they were unfair?

In several cases, the judges have actually ruled that since the FN say that they THOUGHT the deal said one thing, but it actually said something completely different, the government was bound to the incorrect interpretation of the deal the FN claim to have had, rather than the actual deal that was agreed upon, thus binding the government to a deal that they never agreed to.

That was a prime example of 'government by unelected judges'.

yeah. that thing seam to get a little complicate " the provincial and the federal" and all province are rule with similar law but not the same .
example liquor store they make so a big deal in the west. that and duty free what so ever. and they are allowed to have escort license but usa not agree and people from there think is O.K then the U.S.A stupid law think you are crimial and plus if you add 600 new province that is a lot of work.

 

[jjinvan]

actually given the rate at which the addict and FAS populations are increasing as a percentage of all the FN people still on reserves, I don't see them being able to pull out of the downward spiral they are on.

Many FN people are pulling out of that spiral, by moving off of the reserves and working in blue collar jobs and buying houses etc etc... Which is great for them, but not so great for those left behind on the reserves.

When the only way to really succeed is to leave, then only those without the will or ability to succeed and those who prey upon them will be left

Look at what happened to the USSR, a lot of the same basic factors were involved. (Of course now people who have NO CLUE what I'm talking about are going to say that it's a bad comparison, go ahead OTBn, I'm expecting your drivel to arrive any moment).

 

[LaCreme]

It's no easy task to extrapolate a century of change. Given the growth of First Nations movement in the last 20 years, one can say that yes, there are a greater proportion of Natives teaching their culture and moving out of the spiral to which you speak. Possibly a few centuries will be necessary and one must keep in mind that the quantification is purely my own.

If one considers the depth and breadth of the reserve, and city native populations mired in alcoholism, drugs, crime, etc. only a few generations ago then surely it can be seen as a positive growth and not a downward spiral. Keep in mind that the population growth will skew such a comparison as well. I clearly see that, but one can not expect a here today and gone tomorrow approach.

I disagree that the spiral is headed downwards. I see it just the opposite.

i think they have those problems "alcoholism, drug, crime ect. any where in the world and now they are surprize to see ex-indigent are like white men too.. hey the spiral go back as well too..

 

[jjinvan]

If one considers the depth and breadth of the reserve, and city native populations mired in alcoholism, drugs, crime, etc. only a few generations ago then surely it can be seen as a positive growth and not a downward spiral. Keep in mind that the population growth will skew such a comparison as well. I clearly see that, but one can not expect a here today and gone tomorrow approach.

I disagree that the spiral is headed downwards. I see it just the opposite.

I think you need to go do some research into the issue of drug addiction and substance abuse on reserves.

It isn't the 'city' reserves where the problem is at its worst (and growing the fastest) it is the remote ones where teenagers are drinking gasoline or sniffing propane from cylinders.

Population growth (or decline) has no real effect on the numbers as they are measured as a percentage of the total population. If anything, recent population growth would make the numbers seem smaller as there are very few preschool age substance abusers.

The rate of increase of the proportion of FN people with substance abuse problems, and the rate of increase in the number of children being born on reserves with FAS or fetal drug exposure problems is considered to be at 'crisis levels' by the health authorities, and that's internally, not just when they are looking for budget increases (when EVERYTHING is at 'crisis levels').

I've seen a LOT of kids with FAS and I don't remember when I last saw one that wasn't living on a reserve, and that's at BCCH, not at a hospital on or near a reserve (maybe I'd have seen more non-FN FAS if I had been at Surrey Memorial, not sure)

 

[jjinvan]

I think you aren't trying very hard to understand the point...

If the percentage of those with substance abuse problems is going up at a fast rate, that is BAD.

The fact that the population is increasing, doesn't make a difference to the INTERPRETATION of the numbers on substance abuse because they are measured as PERCENTAGES of the total population.

Does it make more sense to you now?

 

[classycarly]

Canada and first nations going to war

...........QM'r[/QUOTE]

There are two ways to deal with "white people". You either use a gun or
you separate him from his money.
What kind of radical terrorist fucking bullshit is this???
He proudly proclaims his threat on National TV and, NO, I don't think he has been arrested yet.

The same kind of racist bullshit that was used in the early days of colonial settlers in Canada when they travelled to FN land and said we're taking this land and this is what we're going to give you for it, and the FN people said no, and the white men would then slaughter the village so they could get what they wanted

(I just couldn't believe my eyes and ears when I watched this segment
in the news tonite. What difference are the FN's from the Al-queda types
or radical muslim jihadists??)

The difference is we didn't steal land from the Muslims, oppress them and very often abuse them and their children and try to eradicate their culture and assimilate them.

This is just too F'ing fucked up man.
Personally I'd send in the troops now after seeing the way the FN's
have nothing but contempt for "white people" and the govt who runs
this country. I think it's high time to end these so called land treaty
settlements and stop giving the land back and dissolve the reservations
and let these people make their own way in this country like everyone
else because obviously the way our gov't has been handling FN issues
it's not working what so ever when these same people who are pandered
too resort with threats of guns and violence.

Sending in the troops? Threatening them with violence is no different than what some of the FN's are doing. If you answer violence with violence, you will only reap more violence, and that won't solve anything.

I have friends who are FN and they think that things have gotten out of hand as well. They work for a living and pay taxes just like us. They have good jobs and work hard. They think the FN may whine a little too much sometimes, but we have only ourselves to blame. We stick them on the ressies because we don't want them intermingling with the rest of us and we expect them to be ok with this? We steal from them and expect them not to be angry? If someone came to your house and said "we're taking this land because we want it, here's what we're going to give you, and if you don't like it, too bad," you too would be pretty pissed and probably put up a fight to keep it.

Yes, maybe they want too much and some are not willing to negotiate, but that is not the majority, it is the vocal few. (They don't really behave much worse than our politicians do when they're sitting in the house hurling insults and threats at each other.) Yes, they may be racist against white people but how many whites are racist against them? This situation goes both ways. Not all FN's behave this way. Being a cross of Swedish and Austrian I am white as white can be, yet I was invited to the FN church for a healing for my son who has recently been diagnosed with kidney disease. This is not something to be taken lightly and it is an honor that we were invited to join their circle.

Just as there are many good Muslims out there, there are many good FN people, and to rail on about they are all whining, lazy, ner-do-wells because of the comments of a misdirected few is rather shortsighted and judgemental. The last thing we need is to send in the troops. That would end up being one heck of a civil war, which I'm sure you'll agree we do not need. If the government would deal honestly, the animosity probably wouldn't even exist, however since honesty and politician are in no way connected words, we can safely assume that they will not, and the situation will have to get worse before it gets better. Racism comes from all sides and I'm pretty sure that if God exists, he will personally escort those people to hell, regardless of their race, color or beliefs. Don't blame the FN people, blame the tribal leaders who are keeping the money the governments give them, then turning around and lying to their own people, in order to keep them bitter and perpetually angry, so that they will continue to rail against the government, who will in turn give the tribal leaders more money to self pocket, while the FN people continue to live in poverty that is enabled by the government and their own leaders. We keep them uneducated and living on reserves with addiction problems because we don't want them getting smart and rising up as a people to actually band together because there is so many of them, we'd really be in trouble. Their leaders don't want them educated and addiction free because then they will see what's really going on and rise up against their own leaders as well. We keep giving them money because it keeps them dependant on us, which is what our ruling class wants. It's our fault, as well as theirs. We gave them limited choices, they answered in kind. Here's a big surprise for some of you folks.... some FN are actually smart, hardworking people who are doctors, lawyers, musicians, and many other occupations, and some white people are real losers who are milking our society as well. Where is your outrage at them? Or is it okay that they're loser trash because they're white? Instead of hanging FN from flagpoles, why not hang trash like Pickton and Bernardo, (both white), from flagpoles? They have done a whole lot more harm to this country and the people in it than the natives have.

I haven't posted anything in quite a while and I don't really know what is allowed to be said on this board, but I'm a little surprised that the moderators would allow such comments as "circle the wagons", "heap big trouble", and "hang them on flagpoles because they're pieces of shit" or allow people to post comments about how the FN should have the troops set upon them. Incendiary comments like that only fan the flames of fanaticism and intolerance amongst all people. So... for all of you who will feel the need to insult me or accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about, have at it, it only shows your intolerance and ignorance of the world around you even more. For those of you who agree with me, (if there are any out there), you are most likely more enlightened than some of your peers and probably have a whole lot more good to offer this crazy, messed up and hateful world than those who choose to pontificate and judge, with no real knowledge outside of their tiny, insular world. For every FN "piece of shit", there is a white counterpart. FYI..... alot of white kids are FAS children too, not to mention born drug addicted. It's not just a FN problem, it's society's collapse and complete lack of moral values and accountability that's the problem. You see alot of FN kids who are FAS because they are concentrated in areas on reserves where they can be counted easily. White people are not and being more spread out, it's harder to see the true amount of white kids who have bad parents and bad morals too. Perhaps there are more FN kids with FAS, maybe not, but we are all responsible for this mess, not just one group or race.

 

[LaCreme]

hi classycarly,
i think you should come more often and post more..
in here i see many good points..i believe you have a lots interesting thing to say..

 

[jjinvan]

(I just couldn't believe my eyes and ears when I watched this segment
in the news tonite. What difference are the FN's from the Al-queda types
or radical muslim jihadists??)

The difference is we didn't steal land from the Muslims, oppress them and very often abuse them and their children and try to eradicate their culture and assimilate them.

Uh...

It depends on what you mean by 'we' and how far back you go.

If 'we' means the member countries of the UN, and those who support isreal, what about the whole palestinian situation?

If 'we' means white people, what about Iran and Iraq (speaking of when Saddam was installed in power, and when the Shah was supported etc...)

If you go back a bit, and 'we' includes the british (after all, it was the british who started the mess with the FN people out here) then you have the crusades and that whole mess.

If you go back far enough, everyone has screwed everyone else over at some point and the cultures and countries who are now (or were at some point) dominant usually screwed the others over more than they got screwed over.

 

[mick_eight]

Uh...

It depends on what you mean by 'we' and how far back you go.

If 'we' means the member countries of the UN, and those who support isreal, what about the whole palestinian situation?

If 'we' means white people, what about Iran and Iraq (speaking of when Saddam was installed in power, and when the Shah was supported etc...)

If you go back a bit, and 'we' includes the british (after all, it was the british who started the mess with the FN people out here) then you have the crusades and that whole mess.

If you go back far enough, everyone has screwed everyone else over at some point and the cultures and countries who are now (or were at some point) dominant usually screwed the others over more than they got screwed over.

Where is this Isreal that you talk about, if this some fantasy place in your mind. Like where internet MDs treat internet people. Solve world problems with a keystrokes,and scream commie all day. Try Irael next time you goggle for your limited information.

 

[classycarly]

Uh...

If 'we' means the member countries of the UN, and those who support Isreal, what about the whole Palestinian situation?

Obviously the "we" in my post does not mean the U.N. and those who support Israel. Since it had nothing to do with the topic we are discussing and that problem didn't even exist in Canada's early days, nor were the U.N. in existence yet, why would I be talking about them in a topic about Natives and Whites? As tragic as the Palestinian conflict is, it has nothing to do with this topic at all.

As to Iran, Iraq, Saddam, and that whole sordid mess, please see my first paragraph above. It has nothing to do with the topic in this thread, so of course I'm not meaning that either.

If you go back a bit, and 'we' includes the british (after all, it was the british who started the mess with the FN people out here) then you have the crusades and that whole mess.

Yes........When I mentioned the early days of Canada, I just naturally assumed that people would know it was the British and Spanish I was talking about. If you want to start a new topic, make a new thread. You had some good ideas for new threads, you should start one. None of the things you have mentioned in your last post have anything to do with the struggle bewteen FN and Whites in Canada.

 

[jjinvan]

The difference is we didn't steal land from the Muslims, oppress them and very often abuse them and their children and try to eradicate their culture and assimilate them.

Ok, just to be clear then, who is 'we' ?

Obviously the "we" in my post does not mean the U.N. and those who support Israel. Since it had nothing to do with the topic we are discussing and that problem didn't even exist in Canada's early days, nor were the U.N. in existence yet, why would I be talking about them in a topic about Natives and Whites? As tragic as the Palestinian conflict is, it has nothing to do with this topic at all.

1) the problem goes back waaaay before Canada's early days, ie: the crusades.

I was just responding to your statement that 'we' never screwed over the muslims. The british did, long before there was a 'canada' and also after there was a 'canada' and, through our position in the UN and UN security council, Canada has voted to screw over muslims and has supported the actions of other countries who have screwed over muslims in the ways you stated that 'we' had not.

So, exacly who is the 'we' who didn't do all that stuff to the muslims?

This is not off topic, the comparison was made between those FN people who support the use of force and violence against the Canadian government to get what they want, and muslim terrorist organisations who support the use of force and violence against the Canadian government to get what they want.

You claimed that the difference was that 'we' had not done all those bad things to the muslim people.

I pointed out that 'we' in fact have done so.

I also think that ANYONE who attempts to incite violence against the government or to hold the citizens physically or economically hostage through the use of violence or threats of violence as a method of extortion against the government is a terrorist, and I think that all terrorists should be treated the same way.

Is there a problem? Yes. Do we need to fix the problem? Yes.

Is the solution to the problem to be found through terrorist actions? No.

 

[jjinvan]

Don't blame the FN people, blame the tribal leaders who are keeping the money the governments give them, then turning around and lying to their own people, in order to keep them bitter and perpetually angry, so that they will continue to rail against the government, who will in turn give the tribal leaders more money to self pocket, while the FN people continue to live in poverty that is enabled by the government and their own leaders.

This part I agree with 100%

Their leaders don't want them educated and addiction free because then they will see what's really going on and rise up against their own leaders as well.

here too, I agree 100%.

some FN are actually smart, hardworking people who are doctors, lawyers, musicians, and many other occupations, and some white people are real losers who are milking our society as well. Where is your outrage at them? Or is it okay that they're loser trash because they're white?

I don't know about others (especially those who would love to see us in a communist 'utopia') but I'm actually MORE outraged at the non FN people who are living as parasites.

As you stated, and I agree, the band leaders are the ones keeping their people dependant so that they can control them and use them to extort money from the government which they keep for themselves. That's why the answer is NOT to throw more money into the current status quo. That's why the Kelowna accord was a very bad plan.

One difference, though, is that the white trash welfare bums aren't rising up and trying to hold the citizens hostage with weapons and threats of violence. At least not yet, although I wouldn't be surprised if things like the squatters etc will one day escalate to that point.

Instead of hanging FN from flagpoles, why not hang trash like Pickton and Bernardo, (both white), from flagpoles? They have done a whole lot more harm to this country and the people in it than the natives have.

Yep, we definately need to bring back the death penalty. No disagreement there.

I haven't posted anything in quite a while and I don't really know what is allowed to be said on this board, but I'm a little surprised that the moderators would allow such comments as "circle the wagons", "heap big trouble", and "hang them on flagpoles because they're pieces of shit" or allow people to post comments about how the FN should have the troops set upon them. Incendiary comments like that only fan the flames of fanaticism and intolerance amongst all people.

Yep, as I pointed out at the beginning of the thread, I think it's pretty offensive that the people who called me all sorts of names for using the word "Chinese" (which aparently is racist) are saying these sorts of things about the FN people.

I do think that they should lock up the leaders who promote and incite terrorist acts, and since they do have their own private well armed armies, it might take the military to do it, and that is where things get complicated.

So... for all of you who will feel the need to insult me or accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about, have at it, it only shows your intolerance and ignorance of the world around you even more. For those of you who agree with me, (if there are any out there), you are most likely more enlightened than some of your peers and probably have a whole lot more good to offer this crazy, messed up and hateful world than those who choose to pontificate and judge, with no real knowledge outside of their tiny, insular world. For every FN "piece of shit", there is a white counterpart.

Yep, I agree with you here to. The only major point on which I disagree with you is when you said that 'we' haven't treated the muslims the same way 'we' treated the FN people.

FYI..... alot of white kids are FAS children too, not to mention born drug addicted. It's not just a FN problem, it's society's collapse and complete lack of moral values and accountability that's the problem. You see alot of FN kids who are FAS because they are concentrated in areas on reserves where they can be counted easily. White people are not and being more spread out, it's harder to see the true amount of white kids who have bad parents and bad morals too. Perhaps there are more FN kids with FAS, maybe not, but we are all responsible for this mess, not just one group or race.

Actually there are far more FAS kids born in the FN population than in the 'white' population in BC. Several studies have been done, going through all the hospital birth records for the province, etc. On the other side of the coin, there are far more white babies born with problems due to maternal drug use than there are FN babies born that way.

But, the rate of increase of the percentage of FN babies that are born with FAS or problems due to maternal substance abuse problems is much higher than in the white population.

What does that mean? It means that the problem is getting worse, and that it is getting worse at a disproportional rate to the regional background rate.

Personally, if I had to guess I would say that based on the current research into the problem there is a combination of factors involved. One of them would be increased drinking in the FN female population and another would be a higher genetic sensitivity to FAS in the FN population.

It is well known that there is a strong genetic vulnerability which factors into whether or not a child will be born with FAS if his mother drinks during pregnancy. Some woman could get hammered on a daily basis for their entire pregnancy and the child won't have FAS. Other women could get mildly drunk one single time during their pregnancy and the child will develop FAS. It also seems to run in families and ethnic populations and it would appear that the vulnerability in the FN population is higher.

Now, why is this important? Well, if you look at things like FAS and crime, you'll see that the FAS adults are often the 'followers' who get caught. In cases like this, where you have a leader who is willing to screw over his own people, those with FAS are much more likely to be suckered in and used by such a leader. They also have a stronger tendancy to agression and violence, which further plays into the hands of their leaders.

 

[jjinvan]

Where is this Isreal that you talk about, if this some fantasy place in your mind. Like where internet MDs treat internet people. Solve world problems with a keystrokes,and scream commie all day. Try Irael next time you goggle for your limited information.

Silly me to forget that your pea-sized brain can't decipher a typo.

I'm sorry that you were completely unable to figure out what I was talking about, I should be more careful in the future to keep my posts simpler and easier for you to comprehend, I'm sure any typos just give you brain strain trying to figure out what the word was supposed to be.

 

[jjinvan]

I believe that you might well look to your own compositional inaccuracies prior to commenting on the compositional transgressions of others.

That would require him to have a colono-cranectomy.

(ie: have his head removed from his ass)

 

[Sultan]

I also think that ANYONE who attempts to incite violence against the government or to hold the citizens physically or economically hostage through the use of violence or threats of violence as a method of extortion against the government is a terrorist, and I think that all terrorists should be treated the same way.

Which is exactly what governments have done throughout history the world over against citizens. Governments are the most violently terroristic institutions ever invented by the human mind. "Terrorism" is a concept one would obviously expect governments to trot out to demonize anyone who opposes it. And when anyone calls on the government to "do something about..." (insert a group of people you hate) they are inciting violence in exactly the same way.

As you stated, and I agree, the band leaders are the ones keeping their people dependant so that they can control them and use them to extort money from the government which they keep for themselves.

The band leaders in turn are controlled by DIA officials who are simply reproducing the hierarchical system of colonial control from previous generations. The band "leaders" are decendents of the few good obedient injuns who turned against their own people as children in favour of the rewards offered by church and state officials for snitching and exposing non compliant FNs. The leaders aren't "extorting" money from the government, the government is all too happy to pour money into corrupt band councils, as long as the band leaders can keep the lid on any revolt from their people, and keep quiet about the corrupt alliances between band councils, churches and governments. It's an old business model used by many regimes such as the U.S. in countries like Indonesia, Chile, Guatemala, Honduras, Iraq, etc. Save money, time , energy and military personnel by installing puppet leaders who will control the populace instead.

 

[jjinvan]

Which is exactly what governments have done throughout history the world over against citizens. Governments are the most violently terroristic institutions ever invented by the human mind. "Terrorism" is a concept one would obviously expect governments to trot out to demonize anyone who opposes it. And when anyone calls on the government to "do something about..." (insert a group of people you hate) they are inciting violence in exactly the same way.

That's a pretty twisted viewpoint you have there. Would you care to give some recent domestic examples or is this just an unsupported theory you came up with when you forgot to put on your tinfoil helmet?

The band leaders in turn are controlled by DIA officials who are simply reproducing the hierarchical system of colonial control from previous generations. The band "leaders" are decendents of the few good obedient injuns who turned against their own people as children in favour of the rewards offered by church and state officials for snitching and exposing non compliant FNs. The leaders aren't "extorting" money from the government, the government is all too happy to pour money into corrupt band councils, as long as the band leaders can keep the lid on any revolt from their people, and keep quiet about the corrupt alliances between band councils, churches and governments. It's an old business model used by many regimes such as the U.S. in countries like Indonesia, Chile, Guatemala, Honduras, Iraq, etc. Save money, time , energy and military personnel by installing puppet leaders who will control the populace instead.

Hmm this one is definately because you forgot your tinfoil helmet.

Either that or you've been frozen in the ice for the last 100 or so years and global warming just thawed you out.

You should really study up on the past 40 or so years of relations between the government, the church and the FN.

The band leaders sure are obedient, oh ya, that's why they are now advocating violence against the government. Oh wait, let me guess, that's because the church told them to, because they're mad about gay marriage, right?