Caloric intake and burning fat, question....

[georgebushmoron]

I can take an educated guess, but I prefer someone who will give me a definitive answer to my question.

If you exercise, but your caloric intake is below what you burn up exercising, what do you lose first.... fat or muscle?

 

[Sweetiepie]

I can take an educated guess, but I prefer someone who will give me a definitive answer to my question.

If you exercise, but your caloric intake is below what you burn up exercising, what do you lose first.... fat or muscle?

You burn up fat first. Out of curiousity, why are you asking? If your body burned muscle first, it wouldn't be functional. You wouldn't be able to build muscle through exercise.

 

[georgebushmoron]

You burn up fat first. Out of curiousity, why are you asking? If your body burned muscle first, it wouldn't be functional. You wouldn't be able to build muscle through exercise.

I'm not sure that your post entirely answers the question. While exercising, I believe stores of sugar are burned up. Those stores of sugar may come from fat deposits, I think. But if the caloric intake were below the caloric expenditure from exercise, I do wonder what gets consumed in the long run - fat or muscle.

A member PM'd me about this, who seemed knowledgeable on the topic. I'll take the liberty to quote part of his PM here (I hope he doesn't mind):

No simple answer to this question. In the extreme, yes, you burn up muscle preferential to fat. Because you need to input energy to burn up fat, but muscle can be broken down to a "wasteful" form of quick energy your body can use.

On a long-term basis it depends on your metabolic modeling.

So you see, I think it is quite complex.

 

[Maury Beniowski]

Do a search GWB. About a year ago, this topic was discussed at length.

Oh, what the hell... Here goes:

https://perb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14586&highlight=calories

https://perb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=29941&highlight=calories

 

[LonelyGhost]

I can take an educated guess, but I prefer someone who will give me a definitive answer to my question.

If you exercise, but your caloric intake is below what you burn up exercising, what do you lose first.... fat or muscle?

Bottom Line is that our bodies are genetically programmed to store fat in case of starvation and can be really reluctant to give it up.

What exercise does (mainly weight lifting or 'resistence training') is force your body to build muscle even when it doesn't want to. But to do so, you need to eat enough calories that your body doesn't go into 'starvation' mode and store more fat.

So, if you ACTUALLY burn more calories exercising than you eat in a day, you will still lose muscle and gain fat because your body is starving and under stress, so you produce high insulin, which lays down more fat.

The 'secret' (and its not a big secret) is to ensure you get enough protein, carbs and minimal fat (take fish oil supplements and cut out all the other fats!) to convince your body that its not 'starving' and start burning the fat off.

You should also take L-glutamine at least twice daily -- it is the amino-acid that your immune system uses to make the antibodies to fight viruses, bacteria etc ... it typically uses the protein in your muscles for this task, so this supplement can 'spare' your muscles from getting used to fight illness.

Now, if you want to get 'ripped' that's a whole other diet ... the stuff above is for the body 'building' phase, when you want to see every striation in the muscle, then you go on a diet that makes Atkins look reasonable! Not good for you, and you cannot be on it for more than six weeks, but you will be ripped!

Unfortunately, the moment you eat anything you will gain fat again.

From the what you posted, if you are really exercising enough to burn all the calories you eat in a day, then you are seriously over-training and making very poor gains: exercise is the stimulation to grow muscle, but your body NEEDS nutrients and rest to BUILD the muscle -- 'over-train = no gain!'

 

[Sweetiepie]

So, if you ACTUALLY burn more calories exercising than you eat in a day, you will still lose muscle and gain fat because your body is starving and under stress, so you produce high insulin, which lays down more fat.
'

Sorry, I misunderstood the question. And I do know its really complex. The main point is that if you eat a healthy diet for your height and weight, and engage in reasonable exerise, the loss will come from fat. But if you don't eat enough to cover the basics, net caloric intake drops too low, and your body will go into starvation mode and slow your metabolism down. That's why fad diets are often so bad. Weight watchers is good because they give you a daily range and you have to meet the minimum intake.

 

[LonelyGhost]

Sorry, I misunderstood the question. And I do know its really complex. The main point is that if you eat a healthy diet for your height and weight, and engage in reasonable exerise, the loss will come from fat. But if you don't eat enough to cover the basics, net caloric intake drops too low, and your body will go into starvation mode and slow your metabolism down. That's why fad diets are often so bad. Weight watchers is good because they give you a daily range and you have to meet the minimum intake.

it does seem counter-intuitive to 'eat' to lose weight, but to actually get the benefits of exercise, you need to convince your body that it IS getting enough to eat to commit energy to gaining muscle and losing fat.

and its equally important to get LOTS of good fat and ZERO bad fat, which actually helps 'trick' your body into thinking its really feasting! This is why so many people got fat on low-fat diets -- they didn't get enough omega-3's and so their body manufactured cholestrol and other fats to compensate.

so a 'diet' should not be about reducing calories, but aimed at reducing 'bad' calories and increasing 'good' ones.

 

[georgebushmoron]

Bottom Line is that our bodies are genetically programmed to store fat in case of starvation and can be really reluctant to give it up.

What exercise does (mainly weight lifting or 'resistence training') is force your body to build muscle even when it doesn't want to. But to do so, you need to eat enough calories that your body doesn't go into 'starvation' mode and store more fat.

So, if you ACTUALLY burn more calories exercising than you eat in a day, you will still lose muscle and gain fat because your body is starving and under stress, so you produce high insulin, which lays down more fat.

The 'secret' (and its not a big secret) is to ensure you get enough protein, carbs and minimal fat (take fish oil supplements and cut out all the other fats!) to convince your body that its not 'starving' and start burning the fat off.

You should also take L-glutamine at least twice daily -- it is the amino-acid that your immune system uses to make the antibodies to fight viruses, bacteria etc ... it typically uses the protein in your muscles for this task, so this supplement can 'spare' your muscles from getting used to fight illness.

Now, if you want to get 'ripped' that's a whole other diet ... the stuff above is for the body 'building' phase, when you want to see every striation in the muscle, then you go on a diet that makes Atkins look reasonable! Not good for you, and you cannot be on it for more than six weeks, but you will be ripped!

Unfortunately, the moment you eat anything you will gain fat again.

From the what you posted, if you are really exercising enough to burn all the calories you eat in a day, then you are seriously over-training and making very poor gains: exercise is the stimulation to grow muscle, but your body NEEDS nutrients and rest to BUILD the muscle -- 'over-train = no gain!'

Once again, you've done me infinite favors LG, thanks! This is all difficult for me to comprehend.... I've never understood biological things. As you know, I've been body building for a year now and have made some gains, but now I am concerned about a layer of fat in the abdomen despite being able to produce strong stomach muscles (can do an L-sit comfortably). I want to be built and ripped, this is what I'm aiming for. Learning how to build muscle took me a long time. Learning how to eat properly for this has not been easy for me.

I think many of us men suffer from the same problem of fat in the stomach area. I've searched the 'net for answers, but nothing comprehensive, just little pockets of "knowledge". I don't wish to become a marathon runner to lose that fat, cuz I fear I might lose the muscle gains too.

Still I don't fully understand what I need to do.

 

[LonelyGhost]

I think many of us men suffer from the same problem of fat in the stomach area. I've searched the 'net for answers, but nothing comprehensive, just little pockets of "knowledge". I don't wish to become a marathon runner to lose that fat, cuz I fear I might lose the muscle gains too.

Still I don't fully understand what I need to do.

Stomach fat is caused by insulin spikes: so you need to stabilize your blood sugar.

First step is go to doctor and get a glucose fasting, and a hemoglobin glucose test (this tells you the 'average' blood sugar over the last six months).

Second is that you may want to get a meter and test your blood sugar ... see if there are foods that cause your blood sugar to rise ... I found out that two slices of whole wheat bread will cause my blood sugar to go over 10, while a huge salad with dressing won't go above 6!

You should consider cutting out anything that is refined: bread, pasta, cookies, any baked goods, juices, pop, alcohol, and any other 'simple' sugars.

Try to increase your intake of Omega-3 oils (capsules or if you can stomach it, straight out of the bottle).

Unfortunately, getting rid of 'belly fat' is the most difficult of all: even long, intense exercise may not help if your blood sugar still spikes, because each time your body releases insulin, you will get belly fat!

As for eating ... you need to eat something every three hours from the moment you get up in the morning: small, balanced 'snacks' that contain good protein, very little fat (except your omega supplement) and complex colorful carbs (green leafy veggies, orange fruit or veggies, etc).

In between, the only thing you should drink is water ... aim for 8 glasses of 8 ounces each. No milk, juice, pop, alcohol, etc.

It may be enough to simply make those changes to get rid of the belly fat, if not, you may need to get even more strict.

You will also want to increase your fibre: eat slow cooked oats (the oat bran is very good for you in a myriad of ways) -- make enough for a couple meals and mix it with fruit (sliced banana or apple or peaches or berries); open a can of salmon and soak in fresh water for about 20 minutes, drain, mix with some basil, pepper, paprika and eat with some celery, romaine lettuce, spinach, or whatever veggies you like. You can use egg whites to make a spinach and yellow/red pepper omelet.

If you still feel hungry and want to snack, have a whole apple, banana, strawberries (or make a smoothie -- use water and a little protein powder).

And don't be surprised if you end up totally ripped and still have some belly fat ... it is the MOST stubborn fat you can get!

 

[Cinnamon Girl]

natural metabolic stimulants

I know Eden started a post....wondering if anyone has tried Body Science "Super Trim" 100% natural Digestive Aid - or another suggestion you have tried. In the US I was taking metabalift but can't find it here.

 

[LonelyGhost]

If somebody is serious about this, they should engage a person trainer that understands the science behind it all, and bases decisions on long-term measurements indicative of various body functions.

I have received more incorrect advice from personal trainers than almost any other profession!

There are some very knowledgeable trainers available, but take their advice and use it as a basis for your own research.

And it is always a good idea to start with a full check-up and bloodwork with your doctor to see if there are any problems ... it may take a few visits and some work to get all the tests you need done, but telling your doctor that these tests provide an important 'base-line' often helps.

Since there is a direct correlation in the medical literature between abdominal fat, insulin (and blood sugar) and lowered levels of testosterone, a good starting point is glucose fasting test and monitoring blood sugar levels.

 

[aznboi9]

So, if you ACTUALLY burn more calories exercising than you eat in a day, you will still lose muscle and gain fat because your body is starving and under stress, so you produce high insulin, which lays down more fat.

Maybe you are thinking about cortisol, which is a stress hormone that is released in response to...stress. Or stressors, I guess. When you're exercising, it's release in response to the demands that are place on the body. One of the responses is the release of glycogen stores to glucose to raise/maintain blood sugar levels as well as the mobilization of triglycerides. Another of the responses is the breakdown of protein for conversion to glucose as well.

There is also glucagon, another hormone produced by the pancrease, that gets less press, but also promotes conversion to glucose, mobilization of fats and is like an antagonist hormone to insulin. Insulin usually is released in response to rises in blood sugar, which is why you have the new ideas of avoiding carbs and refined sugars, or foods with a high glycemic index, as someone already mentioned. Interestingly enough, while insulin is released in response to meals that are high in carbs and fat, meals that include a significant amount of protein also stimulate secretion of glucagon.

Just a minor point. Otherwise, I can't really disagree with anything that LG's said aside from the fasting glucose testing, I'm not really convinced that it would tell you anything useful, from a dieting standpoint.

Good luck.

 

[Sweetiepie]

Otherwise, I can't really disagree with anything that LG's said aside from the fasting glucose testing, I'm not really convinced that it would tell you anything useful, from a dieting standpoint.

Good luck.

The fasting glucose testing is often recomended if you're concerned about abdominal fat because excessive abdominal fat can mean that you are at risk for diabetes. Its just a good routine test to get doen anyways. Re. the caloric intake: If you google "caloric intake" for men, you'll find lots of sites that have calculators to check to see if your intake is within a healthy range for you. Some are quite detailed in terms of the caloric value for everything you do. As long as it is within that range, you shouldn't have to worry about losing muscle. Lots of people who run and jog regularly retain lots of muscle (think football players) and same with people in other sports. Marathon runners are one of the exceptions because they push it ot the extreme. You could also check with a registered dietitian if you want. Re. the fat. Sometimes that is hereditary and some people reach the point where further exercise just won't make a difference. That's where liposuction comes in. Sigh.

 

[Exhausted]

Coffee

I was told that a cup of coffee, aprox an hour before working out, forced the body to dig into the fat stores of the body for fuel. Anyone able to confirm this? I always find that I must consume protein shakes with glutamine and creatine to keep any kind of muscle tone when I do too much cardio. IE the grind and cycling. If not I begin to get way to thin.

 

[aznboi9]

The fasting glucose testing is often recomended if you're concerned about abdominal fat because excessive abdominal fat can mean that you are at risk for diabetes. Its just a good routine test to get doen anyways.

Maybe. A fasting glucose simply tells you what your blood sugars are when you're fasting. Given all the factors governing glucose levels, insulin being a major one, I find it difficult to make a judgement on that alone. If it's too low, you could try to argue that your insulin levels are too high, but you could conversely argue that production of cortisol, glucagon etc. are too low. The same holds true for LG's suggestion of a glycosylated hemoglobin test; that'll will tell you how well controlled your levels of blood glucose over a period of 120 days. But then, what can you say, with respect to dieting, based on the results?

You could do a glucose challenge test, where you consume sugar water before the test and then they track the drop in blood sugar levels over a period of time to gauge the bodies reaction to the spike in glucose levels. I imagine that would be more useful. But these latter two tests are usually only done in follow up to the fasting glucose. I find it hard to imagine that you'd find a doctor that would be willing to order such tests (or even the fasting glucose) in the absence of clinical findings, at least s/he shouldn't be. Unless you argue that you have a lot of abdominal fat, as you've mentioned Sweetie, and are concerned about your risks. But I could be wrong.

Sometimes that is hereditary and some people reach the point where further exercise just won't make a difference. That's where liposuction comes in. Sigh.

Too true.

 

[westwoody]

Find your anaerobic threshold. Below it, you will be burning fat and above it you will be burning proteins. Get a heartrate monitor and follow it. Go to cyclingnews.com and read through their fitness columns.

 

[LonelyGhost]

Just a minor point. Otherwise, I can't really disagree with anything that LG's said aside from the fasting glucose testing, I'm not really convinced that it would tell you anything useful, from a dieting standpoint.

Good luck.

The glucose fasting test is simply the first test that doctors look at to see if there is a problem with metabolizing sugar: even if it 'looks' normal, they won't do further tests without doing that one first, which is why I suggested it -- its definitely not the most useful but certainly a necessary test.

And some of the medical reports I have read recently do link 'belly fat' with insulin resistence which is considered a possible precursor to diabetes.

So why not get it checked out?

 

[summerbreeze]

fit for life

Have a look at this book, there are a lot of common sense in this book pertaining to proper eating habits.

Improper eating leads to excess toxins and the body stores more fat to store these toxins. High water content fruit and veggies eaten fresh and mainly raw have benifits to us not only from a nutrient perspective, but also from a digestive perspective.

If you eat correctly, less toxins are produced and less energy is wasted in the digestive process and toxin cleansing. While the medical people go back an fourth on these issues. Most of the people who eat this way radiate health and more importantly, have higher energy levels and look younger.

So it is about what you eat, when you eat it, and how you eat it.

Sorry if this is leading off the original thread topic of what gets burned first. Just another angle of the core problem, maintaining a good healthy weight.