C36 Merged thread, everything goes here

[whitemoustache]

Bill C 36 and its implications for providers and perberts in Victoria

Like the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy says, right on the cover, "Don't Panic!" The Act, as passed, makes interesting reading for the clues it gives to its enforcement by various jurisdictions. Never mind that there will be a Charter challenge . . . we can expect some version of this flawed legislation to receive royal assent. What's vital for both hobbyists and service providers is to understand how it affects the trade.
Selling sex has never been illegal in Canada, but buying sex is now going to be criminalized. I guess if you jail the johns, or at least fine them into poverty, the learned drafters of the Act are thinking, the poor exploited ladies will find another way to support themselves. Oh, come on! A glance at the ads on here, on the Back Page, and in print, will reveal that the bulk of Victoria's providers are educated past high school level, and have turned to the sex trade because it offers a good return on investment. That, or they're savvy enough to have spelling check software installed on their computers and 'phones.
Much was made in the Lounge, above on this site, about what perils the advertisers now face. Only third party advertisers risk prosecution. Section 286.5 clearly states that those advertising their own services are immune from prosecution.
The talking heads on the television tonight will try to simplify these and other fine points, but there it is, folks. What the Tories are trying to extinguish is the Commodification of Sex, and the easiest way to do that is to target the johns. Can somebody tell me how that makes the trade any safer for the providers?

 

[newatit]

This law has put the institution back 50 years, when everyone thought prostitution was illegal even though it wasn't. Didn't matter. The laws gradually got straightened by court decisions and finally the SCOC decisions. Now we are back at square one. So, did there not used to be advertising. so why is that a issue now? The Gals always went to bars, night clubs or the streets, parking lots, etc and got clients. There are not enough police around to patrol those, and for the most part they didn't. But it doesn't take a lot of police to do a number on this thing. A few arrests a day are all that are needed. And publicize those arrests, and that is it. Everyone backs off. So hopefully we can monitor reports of that on PERB. If you get arrested, let us know. With all the details possible.

I frankly think this law is going to last a few years, and a lot of damage is going to be done to both sexes. Men who get arrested will have to likely show in court, but not the SP. For the higher end SP's who work at other jobs, they may find themselves outed if their name comes up in a court challenge. Like it is ok to say they won't be prosecuted, but if they are named in a court challenge, then they are going to become known for this work. So Yeh, they aren't affected. lol.

But while all you guys are focussing on this being a law against prostitution, it is against sex actually, amongst the unmarried and uncommitted group.
A popular Canadian Magazine in this month's issue tells a story of an elderly gal who turned down a date for a nice meal in a good restaurant. She did so because she did not want to have sex with the gentleman, but thought that would be part of the deal. Under this law, a good meal in a good restaurant could be "a consideration". Had she gone through with the meal and sex afterwards, she would inadvertently had been a prostitute, and the elderly gentleman a criminal in a sex crime.

This law is not really designed to deal with prostitution, it is designed to enforce the Prime Ministers moral code on our society. Here is how it works.

Hide a morality law in another subject, and enforce it.
Make sex free by making it impossible to get otherwise
When women realize they can't get anything for sex, they will stop giving it away and demand a marriage
When you get married, then you can have sex,
So now all women and men having sex will be married and Harper will be happy.

Terrible bit of philosophy but it might work.

So what is the work around? Men must stop paying for dates and gals must learn to pay their share. Otherwise they might be accused of being a prostitute if they decide to bed the guy afterwards. So a guy normally can't expect sex on the first few dates, so he should pay. When his lady friend is ready to bed him, she only has to say she will pay her share of the date that night. That is the signal.

Are we really subject to Christian principles being forced upon us? Will yes. Yesterday there were two reports of the police in Ontario arresting pimps and breaking up forced prostitution and bodyshops. So we already have those laws and they are working. So what is the need for more in this Bill? None! So I ask you, Why is this Bill written with definition written in it that is there? It covers every event of sexual intercourse in Canada now. And that cartoon of Peter McKay standing on a ladder and glaring into a bedroom of an old couple asking if you paid for that, is going to be the case.

I am not sure I beleive the Vpd is going to leave things alone. Their reputation for being hard handed goes back to the closing of the Penthouse in the 1970's, and eventually led to one of the biggest prostitution problems in Canada. I doubt this is going to be any better.

No one knows how many prostitutes there are in Canada, and there are way more than what are on the streets or in the papers advertising. But if a guess of 20,000 across Canada is anywhere accurate, then we will suddenly have an unemployement problem of great proportions to deal with and I am not aware of any plann to handle that.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

And who as Canadian Citizens had the opportunity to vote on this?? I didn't even know about this bill until about two months ago and I didn't see any public polls, let alone a referendum. I think if Canadians were educated on what this bill actually means to the safety of sex trade workers and how it affects the economy amongst a multitude of other things, how we already have laws in place to deal with human trafficking and under-aged girls in the industry, that the outcome may be a whole lot different than what the government is purporting.

every four years or so we all have the opportunity to vote on the people we trust to make our laws. if they fuck it up, we then have the opportunity next time around to boot them the fuck out

that is called representational democracy

every citizen voting on every bill is called anarchy, and you don't want to go there

 

[summerbreeze]

anyone who reads newspapers, watches news, hears news on the radio, or read canadian publishied magazines (certain ones at least) will have had an opportunity to be alerted to this bill

from there they can google whatever they want in terms of perspective

don't think the no one has heard about it argument gets a lot of traction

 

[Vancityads]

As expected the bill will pass and become law sometime before the end of the year as ordered from the courts

In the future.... as expected the law will be in the courts and the fight will go on

The law will no doubt be overturned by the courts but this could take up to 2 years and a bunch of money

For now..Time to get smart about how you advertise and browse ads until then

 

[CisForCookie]

According to this article http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/senate-oks-controversial-prostitution-bill/ar-BBd7KL6 SP's can advertise, but it is illegal to run the ad. It's a complete catch 22. Seems to me if you post a review, you are giving the Police all the evidence they need to arrest you. Personally I think rates will drop. Many hobbyists aren't going to take their chances on anyone new. I know I won't.

I think they are allowed to advertise so cops can set up stings...

 

[CisForCookie]

in sweden the rates went up indoors and down outdoors...which means once again the outdoor workers will bear the brunt of this bad law....

amp's will be illegal especially one's operating out of condo's/ apartments etc....any unlicensed business will be under scrutiny...all business owners are considered pimps and exploiters under the new law.....

amp's, since migrant workers are often the subject of false human trafficking claims...will certainly be under watch closely because of racism, anti immigrant shit and the lies that have been spread about their lives....it will be a strange new time...everyone be careful.

again, in vancouver we have our policy with police and the city so are not expecting any backlash enforcement but in burnaby, new west, surrey,etc....its a different story.....

Why did the prices react the way that they did? In regards to outdoor/indoor

i thought they would both go down except for established shops which would go up. New entrants would be hard pressed in getting clients. Established shops will be booked like crazy.

I keep thinking LE would raid a established place and set up a sting....people go in then they are escorted out to a booking area, sorta like those to catch a predator setups they have on those new tv shows. they would be making mad cash from all the fines they be handing out. All in the guise of protecting the public from the pervs...

They couldnt keep a serial rapist away from that 19 year old in surrey when they knew he would re offend...

 

[CisForCookie]

That's not going to happen unless maybe you happen to post your real name and address on the forum.
While I never underestimate the zeal of some cops or the politicians pushing their buttons, this law is aimed at giving the cops the power to go after and arrest Johns and Pimps out on the streets/hotels/MP's etc. The amount of time and effort necessary to track people down on the internet would be beyond their manpower and budgetary limits.
We're all anonymous here and as I understand it the administrators of sites such as PERB have taken them offshore (not sure of the exact computer lingo) to prevent any problems they may have. So even if the cops decided they wanted to know who Jethro on Perb is, they couldn't get it, even with a court order.

Damn, I think I just hijacked my own thread.:doh:

Let's get back to the original question.

Cheers

I disagree. Police can request user data from isp without a warrant thanks to harper.

Request for user info based on ip constanly goes up. There is ways around this but i think reviews or sharing of sessions will be higely curtailed.

This is great for sps that provide crap sessions. Bad for hidden gems.

Food for thought, actual incident. A girl took a picture of grafitti and posted on the internet. The cops were at her door within a day. She didnt create the graffiti, she merely took a photo and posted it. Last i checked taking photos of art is not a crime and nor is posting. But the poloce paid her a visit anyhow. Yes it happened in canada aka harper land.

So cops do have time, its just a matter of what they want to do with their time...

 

[vancity_cowboy]

My point is I don't think that we have an accurate percentage of Canadians who agree with this bill... not who they voted for, or support in government, but their personal feelings towards Bill C-36.

and you might be right

personally i don't think many canadians give a damn about prostitution - but if pressed, they will say that there is something fundamentally wrong about it - especially with the men for thinking that they have a right to buy a nsa piece of tail from a needy young woman whenever they want. i'm talking about if you just set up an opinion booth outside a supermarket and asked the question, without putting any spin on it whatsoever. oh, and remember that the folks in south pork fork, saskatchewan need to be included in this informal survey as well, not just the metros living in yaletown

why else would we hide behind pseudonyms to participate on this discussion board? prostitution is legal (for now) after all. why don't we all post our real names, addresses and phone numbers? because even we believe there is something fundamentally wrong with it and we don't want to be publicly associated with it

i get it that you are feeling personally attacked by this bill, as i am. but hiding our heads from the truth is not going to help us win any battles

the truth is, we ARE in the minority regarding our opinions about prostitution, and it was only a matter of time before an opportunistic party used it as a platform on which to raise money. and it will only be a matter of time before another equally opportunistic party uses reversing the effects of this bill as a platform on which to raise money

 

[CisForCookie]

No visits to new shops
No posting of reviews
No txting to book sessions
Never ever mention $ and s*x
No visiting shops in rcmp land
No going into houses or mps...just in case they sit around taking photos. Dont think they have much if its photos of me going to a condo, but there would be a lot of explaining to do if it was photos of me going into a mp. :0

Missing anything?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I disagree. Police can request user data from isp without a warrant thanks to harper.

Not if the host/server is out of their jurisdiction (offshore). This is what many of the review and advertisers are doing.

 

[summerbreeze]

there are non moral objections to the profession i.e. health concerns and transmission of disease

the point about a good democracy is one which respects the rights of the minority is quite valid in this case however you have the historical disdain for the profession as well as religious objections to sex out of wedlock

all combined it is something people actually prefer in an underground fashion however they ignore the darker side of driving it underground

my main problem with this is that the politicians involved are after personal political gain, are very clever in using public sentiment, and ultimately if struck down by the courts down the road did not serve the best interest of the country and its people however they know well how to play this game....

 

[Proculus]

SP's Should Become Porn Producers to Dodge Bill C-36

Hmm. It seems this has already been tried with no success. http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/va...studio_where_customers_pay_to_be_the_star.php

 

[Proculus]

I've called one of the major massage places in Vancouver about this law and they are taking the position that it doesn't apply to them because they are not involved in prostitution. I don't know how effective that is going to be.

 

[Vancityads]

No visits to new shops
No posting of reviews
No txting to book sessions
Never ever mention $ and s*x
No visiting shops in rcmp land
No going into houses or mps...just in case they sit around taking photos. Dont think they have much if its photos of me going to a condo, but there would be a lot of explaining to do if it was photos of me going into a mp. :0

Missing anything?

Just book with ladies giving a massage.. nothing in law says you can't get a massage... what happens from there is your business

 

[westwoody]

If you ever attend court you can see what a dim view judges take of people trying to outwit them.

 

[newatit]

Well this section is about rates, and in my note above i kind of ignored that. Rates were never an issue 50 years ago. The rate was what the gal could extract from a willing date. A bad week meant lower rates if such dates were only ones encountered. There isn't going to be much choice unfortuneately for the gals.

But I have been thinking, dangerously perhaps. Should we pooners call for a moratorium on paid sex for sixty days after this bill somes into effect? No dates, no money spent, drive the gals out of their apartments into the hands of welfare? En masse, what if all the hookers in Canada lined up in front of the welfare and social assitance offices or started panhandling on the streets because no one would visit them. Lets face it, that would have an effect. 20,000 odd thousand of them, would make the news and papers and drive home a message to the voting public.

 

[screwtape1963]

I've called one of the major massage places in Vancouver about this law and they are taking the position that it doesn't apply to them because they are not involved in prostitution. I don't know how effective that is going to be.

Well, I think that massage place would be well advised to get a professional legal opinion about that, because one issue with the new law is that what is outlawed is consenting adults paying for "sexual services" -- a phrase that is NOT defined in the new sections. However, "sexual services" IS defined elsewhere in the Criminal Code, specifically in the section making it illegal to pay anyone under the age of 18 for "sexual services" -- and in THAT section, "sexual services" is defined very very broadly to cover basically anything intended to provide sexual gratification from prostitution to performing in a porn movie to stripping.

There is a basic principle of statute interpretation that holds that similar phrases should be interpreted in a similar manner anywhere they appear in the same document... so if it has been illegal for a long time to pay anyone under 18 to act in porn movies or be an exotic dancer on the grounds that those are "sexual services", there is really no reason to suppose that "sexual services" in the new sections means anything different. In other words, in theory, you could now go to jail for tipping a stripper...

 

[CisForCookie]

Not if the host/server is out of their jurisdiction (offshore). This is what many of the review and advertisers are doing.

Offshore as in the netherlands and not puritanical america...there are lots of joint operations between america and canada...

My example was Canadian girl took photos of grafitti and posted on american servers...and it basically took them no time at all to figure her out and bring her in and charge her.

 

[Maxfield]

There is no such thing as anonymity on the internet. Period. I won't debate that point. As to the subject of the thread, prices, I'll be saving a few bucks because I'll be sitting on the sidelines while this situation plays itself out. I just feel sorry for the poor guys who get caught in the net. Who knows what type of media scrutiny they will face?