British Columbians kill the HST with 54-per-cent referendum vote Read more

[wilde]

So you're likely even less qualified to comment on this industry then I assumed. Bad on me.

I see you're leaving with the typical loser's parting shot when they can't justify their arguments any longer "I'm done talking to you..."


The problem Wilde, is that guys like you come across intelligent. You speak well. You have an opinion on everything. But people like you are dangerous because you take things too far by trying to influence people on economic theory you read out of a book when you don't have any practical working knowledge about the subject you are spouting off about.

Economic theory has many flaws...you should know this if you've studied it. The greatest flaw is the assumption of perfect knowledge in the marketplace.

Stick to what you know and stay the fuck out of our wallets.

Listen to you, you uneducated fuck, stop with your fucking BS assumptions. I sometimes supervise bookkeepers or review their work but I am not one.

You blame the world for all of your problems and never look in the mirror, that's the problem with people like you. You have no work, let's blame the HST, blame this, blame that. Typical and predictable. At least I have studied the theories as opposed to you sprouting off the same bullshit your uneducated peers do day in and day out. And since you are so fucking stupid, here is an example of why construction costs have gone down:

Lets say, developer A gets a service from contractor B for $100. This service is taxable for PST.

Under the GST/PST system, developer A would pay $112 ($100 for the service, $5 in GST and $7 in PST). Developer A can recover the GST but not the PST so the net cost of this transaction is $107.

Under the HST system, developer A would pay $112 ($100 for the service and $12 in HST). Developer A can recover all of the HST so the net cost of the same transaction is now $100.

Now tell me, did construction costs go up or down?

 

[huggzy]

Listen to you uneducated fuck, stop with your fucking BS assumptions. You blame the world for all of your problems and never look in the mirror, that's the problem with people like you. You have no work, let's blame the HST, blame everybody else. Typical and predictable. At least I have studied the theories as opposed to sprouting off the same bullshit your uneducated peers does day in and day out. And since you are so fucking stupid, here is an example of why construction costs have gone down:

Lets say, developer A get a service from contractor B for $100. This service is taxable for PST.

Under the old GST/PST system, developer A would pay $112 ($100 for the service, $5 in GST, and $7 in PST). Developer A can recover the GST but not the PST so the net cost of this transaction is $107.

Under the HST system, developer A would pay $112 ($100 for the service and $12 in HST). Developer A can recover all of the HST so the net cost of this transaction is $100.

Now, did construction cost go up or down?

You're the one with assumptions (most particularly that I don't work...and is that supposed to be an argument in your favor for HST, or against?...but nevermind).

You're a little misguided if you think that its that simple Wilde (I've already tried to communicate that to you, but it goes straight over your navel gazing head).

Developer A may have a contract with contractor A. And contractor B. And contractor C - and dozens/hundreds of contracts and PO's all the way to contractor YYYY.

These contractors will also have subcontracts with Subcontractor A - Z

And developer A may also have PO's and subcontracts with hundreds of material suppliers.

And these subcontractors and suppliers have product where they are purchasing supplies, and labour, and production facilities etc. A developer doesn't go to the hardware store and purchase all the screws from them directly, does he? No...all his subbies are purchasing all their own parts and supplies themselves.

How easy do you think it is for a developer to monitor these costs (for thousands upon thousands of different items/trades etc). If the developer was building the EXACT same product countless times over the course of a year then monitoring, comparing and controlling these costs would be simple, right? And when the developer realizes that the box of screws that cost his subtrade $5.99 including pst previously, when it is now still $5.99 net (with no value added tax) that he's going to be able to go back and push his subcontractor to push his subcontractor to push his supplier to give him that tax savings on the box of screws? Or the toilet gaskets? Or the electrical wiring caps?

Your example is a tad little simplistic. The provincial government estimates the elimination of the PST will reduce construction costs of building a home be a net total of 2%. Of course, if this is government propoganda we can assume that IF none of any of these component suppliers of materials, production and labour didn't raise their costs and pocket some of that difference that this is a best case scenario.

The reality is that contractors won't see any of that difference, and haven't. The overall change is hoped to have a net drop in overall cost of 2%, a partial offset of the 7% increase) assuming none of these suppliers grabs that margin. Good fucking luck.

But guys like you who read a lot of text books in simplistic terms like you've outlined can't (or don't want to) see the impracticality of these assumptions.


Needless to say, you conveniently focus on this one issue and ignore the other fact that the end purchaser can only claim 100% provincial portion of the HST to a cap of $20,000 on their purchase.

A $400,000 home costs $8,100 more
A $500,000 home costs $10,100 more
A $700,000 home costs $22,900 more
A $900,000 home costs $39,000 more

Wilde... it would be nice if things fell neatly into the economic theory you espouse, but the reality is that this just doesn't happen.

 

[wilde]

You're the one with assumptions (most particularly that I don't work...and is that supposed to be an argument in your favor for HST, or against?...but nevermind).

You're a little misguided if you think that its that simple Wilde (I've already tried to communicate that to you, but it goes straight over your navel gazing head).

Developer A may have a contract with contractor A. And contractor B. And contractor C - and dozens/hundreds of contracts and PO's all the way to contractor YYYY.

These contractors will also have subcontracts with Subcontractor A - Z

And developer A may also have PO's and subcontracts with hundreds of material suppliers.

And these subcontractors and suppliers have product where they are purchasing supplies, and labour, and production facilities etc. A developer doesn't go to the hardware store and purchase all the screws from them directly, does he? No...all his subbies are purchasing all their own parts and supplies themselves.

How easy do you think it is for a developer to monitor these costs (for thousands upon thousands of different items/trades etc). If the developer was building the EXACT same product countless times over the course of a year then monitoring, comparing and controlling these costs would be simple, right? And when the developer realizes that the box of screws that cost his subtrade $5.99 including pst previously, when it is now still $5.99 net (with no value added tax) that he's going to be able to go back and push his subcontractor to push his subcontractor to push his supplier to give him that tax savings on the box of screws? Or the toilet gaskets? Or the electrical wiring caps?

Are you fucking dense or what? The contractor does not need to go back to the subtrades, he recovers the GST/HST paid as input tax credits on its GST/HST return.

Your example is a tad little simplistic. The provincial government estimates the elimination of the PST will reduce construction costs of building a home be a net total of 2%. Of course, if this is government propoganda we can assume that IF none of any of these component suppliers of materials, production and labour didn't raise their costs and pocket some of that difference that this is a best case scenario.

The reality is that contractors won't see any of that difference, and haven't. The overall change is hoped to have a net drop in overall cost of 2%, a partial offset of the 7% increase) assuming none of these suppliers grabs that margin. Good fucking luck.

But guys like you who read a lot of text books in simplistic terms like you've outlined can't (or don't want to) see the impracticality of these assumptions.


Needless to say, you conveniently focus on this one issue and ignore the other fact that the end purchaser can only claim 100% provincial portion of the HST to a cap of $20,000 on their purchase.

A $400,000 home costs $8,100 more
A $500,000 home costs $10,100 more
A $700,000 home costs $22,900 more
A $900,000 home costs $39,000 more

Wilde... it would be nice if things fell neatly into the economic theory you espouse, but the reality is that this just doesn't happen.

1) I never commented or disputed on the increase in the price of a new home because of the HST but you are the one who keeps mumbling about increased construction costs which is what we have been discussing.

2) The savings under my example would only increase exponentially if you apply the same example across the whole chain of supply of a newly constructed home which you are too fucking stupid to extrapolate. My example is simplistic but it is also the reality. I kept it simple so simpletons like you can comprehend.

And how the fuck would you know if the contractors' costs have not gone down. You have access to your boss's books, I doubt that very much.

3) You claim to be in the construction industry, have you never heard of project management system which keeps the costs of a project down to a tee? Developers also have a team of estimators working for them keeping track of all construction costs.

 

[twoblues]

3) You claim to be in the construction industry, have you never heard of project management system which keeps the costs of a project down to a tee? Developers also have a team of estimators working for them keeping track of all construction costs.

If I was funding a project, I would want costs tracked down to the nails.

The contractor on my last reno job really hated me when I disputed his costs and he couldn't produce receipts

 

[wilde]

If I was funding a project, I would want costs tracked down to the nails.

The contractor on my last reno job really hated me when I disputed his costs and he couldn't produce receipts

Particularly important if you have a "cost plus" contract with the contractor.

 

[overdone]

Ontario and some of the eastern provinces have this and it has been in place for a while, so has it improved their economies to any extend that is measurable?

maybe one of you bookkeepers or construction gurus can analyze that for us, lol

make it double space and in triplicate by fri

 

[huggzy]

1) I never commented or disputed on the increase in the price of a new home because of the HST but you are the one who keeps mumbling about increased construction costs which is what we have been discussing.

2) The savings under my example would only increase exponentially if you apply the same example across the whole chain of supply of a newly constructed home which you are too fucking stupid to extrapolate. My example is simplistic but it is also the reality. I kept it simple so simpletons like you can comprehend.

And how the fuck would you know if the contractors' costs have not gone down. You have access to your boss's books, I doubt that very much.

3) You claim to be in the construction industry, have you never heard of project management system which keeps the costs of a project down to a tee? Developers also have a team of estimators working for them keeping track of all construction costs.

Wilde...do you know what a Quantity Surveyor is? That is my profession.

Look it up. And then trust me when I tell you that a simpleton like you has no fucking idea how complex it is to track construction costs "down to a tee".

 

[twoblues]

Wilde...do you know what a Quantity Surveyor is? That is my profession.

Look it up. And then trust me when I tell you that a simpleton like you has no fucking idea how complex it is to track construction costs "down to a tee".

If it's anything like Quantitative Chemistry versus Qualitative Chemistry, then you should be tracking absolutely everything. Especially if your job is to "quantify" everything. I don't mean to sound mean, perhaps I have too high a standard for jobs based on money/quantities. I certainly understand "waste", but that should be tracked as well.

 

[huggzy]

Particularly important if you have a "cost plus" contract with the contractor.

A "cost plus" contract only applies to costs between two parties - typically the owner and a general. This ignores the multiple underlying layers that pst applies to that exist in the context of our discussions.

 

[huggzy]

If it's anything like Quantitative Chemistry versus Qualitative Chemistry, then you should be tracking absolutely everything. Especially if your job is to "quantify" everything. I don't mean to sound mean, perhaps I have too high a standard for jobs based on money/quantities. I certainly understand "waste", but that should be tracked as well.

Its very easy to track your own cost outlays. That's simple bookkeeping

Its not easy to split apart all the other complex variables that make the costs up and to understand them because the parties you are dealing with hold information close to their vests and it is a very combatitive industry so to speak.

Things are very fluid and complex, particularly on large scale construction projects.

 

[huggzy]

Ah I understand now. Since sub trades & suppliers are raising their prices (a price raise since their costs went down, but their prices remained the same), it is somehow a tax increase. Good to know.

The point is that no one - the developers, contractors, subcontractors, suppliers, etc. know exactly how the disappearance of the pst is actually going to change their input costs. When they do their estimates for their "client"/contractor/partner are they supposed to just deduct 7% of what they used to do previously (no), or do they deduct 2% because the government has estimated that overall construction costs should drop 2% (no)...or cut their estimate by some other number between 2% and 0% (which now borders on neglible).

No one knows how their input costs will be affected. Therefore when a millwork subcontractor does an estimate for a job it is unlikely that they will make any change in how they estimate their jobs. In the end, if they net out a few more dollars because their costs have gone down then great...but they can't quantify how much their costs might drop. So the contracts that every subtrade or supplier bids on will change neglibibly if any because there is so much uncertainty.

Therefore input costs don't change. Therefore build costs don't change (or neglibly change). In a perfect world all cost savings would be passed on, but people refuse to acknowledge that there are practical issues with trying to pass on tiny savings for thousands of different inputs (although when they all add up they add up). You can't track them and its extremely difficult to hold margins for.

However, the end purchaser must now also deal with the end product HST that these supposed pst savings were to ONLY partially offset.

In the end the government charges an extra 7% in their HST that will be charged fully to the consumer, with only a fraction of it offset by a rebate, and the hopes that a best case scenario estimate being pushed by the government of 2% pst savings as a another partial offset (which in all likelihood will be no cost savings because these margins will be held by suppliers)

In the end this means that a home costs more, which means that demand for new home construction will undoubtedly decrease.

 

[agentman]

Dudes you're never gonna change each others opinions so why bother? It's done boys....let it go....let it go.

Open up a bottle of your favorite wine and relax, after your workout. Life is good, Life is good

Well said, a voice of reason and civility, i raise my glass to you brother.:clap2:

 

[whoisjohngalt]

However you don't come across as "elite", just a "know-it-all" douchebag.

I've been called worse things by better people.

It's not a question of wanting to contribute more money in taxes, it's a question of what's best for the provincial economy and finances as a whole. I look at this bigger picture even though I personally may be one of the few who is worse off under the HST for the time being. I know that in the long run I will eventually benefit from the stronger economy.

Perhaps you only care about your own immediate circumstances, which is your privilege.

 

[wilde]

Wilde...do you know what a Quantity Surveyor is? That is my profession.

Look it up. And then trust me when I tell you that a simpleton like you has no fucking idea how complex it is to track construction costs "down to a tee".

Well I feel sorry for your colleagues for having such a buffoon amongst their rank. For the amount of bullshit that have come from you, you may as well be a Quantity Bullshitter.

 

[luvsdaty]

Meanwhile contractor A & sub contractor B bring all this crap to there accountant & say deal with it & bill me.