British Columbians kill the HST with 54-per-cent referendum vote Read more

[huggzy]

This whole exercise is a perfect example of why direct democracy doesn't work. It may sound elitist and arrogant but there is no escaping the fact that the vast majority of the citizenry have neither the time, interest or level of understanding to evaluate these types of public policy decisions. Enjoy your "victory", anti-HST folks.

And straight back at you. However you don't come across as "elite", just a "know-it-all" douchebag.

Feel free to contribute more of your money to general revenue if you choose to. Nothing to stop you from giving more than required by law if you really want to that badly.

 

[wilde]

I think you majored in gullibility if you bought all the threats/promises/propoganda the liberals/feds threw at us to jam this down our throats. But then again based on reading your posts the HST was something that benefited you/your business somehow so you probably had an agenda to push the pro-hst side as well.

Well huggzy, time will tell who is gullible. We'll get most the answers when they roll out the next provincial budget.

I assisted clients to transition to the HST and when we move back to GST/HST, I'll assist them to transition back. Do I have an agenda? You tell me...

 

[huggzy]

Well huggzy, time will tell who is gullible. We'll get most the answers when they roll out the next provincial budget.

I assisted clients to transition to the HST and when we move back to GST/HST, I'll assist them to transition back. Do I have an agenda? You tell me...

Who were your clients? That might enlighten us about what kind of agenda, if any, you might have.

I won't lie as I do have an agenda. My personal experience from a consumer perspective has seen my costs go up. I count every penny I spend, and my cost of living has increased dramatically.

I work in the construction industry. The HST has increased construction costs greatly and has affected our industry.

I'm not unbiased - but I don't believe the pro-HST crowd when they argue that its for the good of all people either.

In the end our overall taxes increased with the HST and the government won't give us the straight goods on this. All we ever see is misdirection, lies, smoke and mirrors. This is another reason - all on its own - why I won't support a government initiative such as this. They got elected on a platform where they were not in favor of the HST...so bloody well keep that position.

 

[Cock Throppled]

Feel free to contribute more of your money to general revenue if you choose to. Nothing to stop you from giving more than required by law if you really want to that badly.

I think it would be a good idea for governments to set up places where extra money could be deposited to go to dedicated purposes people are passionate about.

So, if you thought more money should be spent on hospitals or schools or prisons or Christy Clark's hair stylist you could donate extra money to that particular purpose.

Personally, I would pay extra for more police and better medical care.

 

[wilde]

Who were your clients? That might enlighten us about what kind of agenda, if any, you might have.

I won't lie as I do have an agenda. My personal experience from a consumer perspective has seen my costs go up. I count every penny I spend, and my cost of living has increased dramatically.

I work in the construction industry. The HST has increased construction costs greatly and has affected our industry.

I'm not unbiased - but I don't believe the pro-HST crowd when they argue that its for the good of all people either.

In the end our overall taxes increased with the HST and the government won't give us the straight goods on this. All we ever see is misdirection, lies, smoke and mirrors. This is another reason - all on its own - why I won't support a government initiative such as this. They got elected on a platform where they were not in favor of the HST...so bloody well keep that position.

My clients are small businesses - mostly owner managed (under 20 employees) and some proprietors (unincorporated businesses).

The HST should have had a positive effect on the construction industry because under the HST they get to claim back the provincial portion of the HST which they weren't able to do under PST. If construction costs increased, it can probably be attributed to increases in materials and labour. You can blame a lot of things on the HST but this is not one of them.

Like you I paid more sales taxes under HST. But where you and I differ is that you are concerned solely about the immediate future, i.e. the extra $ you are shelling out under HST. Whereas I considered both the long and short term ramifications of HST. The long term effects are much harder to quantify but things like competitiveness (compared to the other HST provinces) of BC, the fairness and simplification of HST versus GST/PST, the federal incentives that are now gone are some of the things that I considered going into the referendum. It's hard to argue with your wallet but a little foresight is never a bad thing.

 

[huggzy]

My clients are small businesses - mostly owner managed (under 20 employees) and some proprietors (unincorporated businesses).

The HST should have had a positive effect on the construction industry because under the HST they get to claim back the provincial portion of the HST which they weren't able to do under PST. If construction costs increased, it can probably be attributed to increases in materials and labour. You can blame a lot of things on the HST but this is not one of them.

Like you I paid more sales taxes under HST. But where you and I differ is that you are concerned solely about the immediate future, i.e. the extra $ you are shelling out under HST. Whereas I considered both the long and short term ramifications of HST. The long term effects are much harder to quantify but things like competitiveness (compared to the other HST provinces) of BC, the fairness and simplification of HST versus GST/PST, the federal incentives that are now gone are some of the things that I considered going into the referendum. It's hard to argue with your wallet but a little foresight is never a bad thing.

But you see, you're wrong when you make assumptions. The purchaser who buys a newly constructed home pays more.

1. Embedded PST in construction materials that theoretically "should" be passed down the line hasn't been. This is demonstrated every single day. Manufacturers have grabbed this differential and put it into their pockets.

2. Partial BC HST rebates for newly constructed homes are capped at $20,000. Only properties under the value of $400,000 benefit from the rebate. When is the last time you've seen a single detached home valued at $400,000?

3. Real estate is now also subject to the full 12% HST.

It is clear that HST negatively affects the home-building industry. What we don't need is people spreading misinformation. What really irks me is when people claim they are informed in specific industries that they know nothing about because they are not involved in it.

 

[wilde]

But you see, you're wrong when you make assumptions. The purchaser who buys a newly constructed home pays more.

1. Embedded PST in construction materials that theoretically "should" be passed down the line hasn't been. This is demonstrated every single day. Manufacturers have grabbed this differential and put it into their pockets.

2. Partial BC HST rebates for newly constructed homes are capped at $20,000. Only properties under the value of $400,000 benefit from the rebate. When is the last time you've seen a single detached home valued at $400,000?

3. Real estate is now also subject to the full 12% HST.

It is clear that HST negatively affects the home-building industry. What we don't need is people spreading misinformation. What really irks me is when people claim they are informed in specific industries that they know nothing about because they are not involved in it.

Yeah I hate misinformation too. You were talking about the increased construction costs but what you are talking now is the increases to the purchaser, apples and oranges my friend... While we are on the subject of assumptions, some of my clients are developers or in the trades as subcontractors, so I do know what I am talking about. I sense that you are just moving your goal posts in your discussions to illustrate your points, try sticking to a subject that you brought up. I have no idea what you are trying to talk about in your point 1, BTW.

 

[huggzy]

Yeah I hate misinformation too. You were talking about the increased construction costs but what you are talking now is the increases to the purchaser, apples and oranges my friend...

Yes...implementation of this tax is an increased construction cost to the end purchaser (maybe you don't think this cost gets passed on to the buyer of the newly constructed home?). So is the transition/elimination of embedded pst which has resulted in no change in NET material and labour construction costs - which you cited.

Apples to apples. Construction of a new home costs more.

 

[wilde]

Yes...implementation of this tax is an increased construction cost to the end purchaser (maybe you don't think this cost gets passed on to the buyer of the newly constructed home?). So is the transition/elimination of embedded pst which has resulted in no change in NET material and labour construction costs - which you cited.

Apples to apples. Construction of a new home costs more.

It cost more to the purchaser but not to the developer which you first sighted. And this increase to the purchaser is caused by the HST not increase in construction costs as you stated. So still apples and oranges.

Here is a reminder of what you said:

I work in the construction industry. The HST has increased construction costs greatly and has affected our industry.

 

[huggzy]

It cost more to the purchaser but not to the developer which you first sighted. And this increase to the purchaser is caused by the HST not increase in construction costs as you stated. So still apples and oranges.

Here is a reminder of what you said:

Your such a dipshit Wilde. If you want to argue semantics so that you can save face then go right ahead. However, not once did I ever site this specifically from a developer's perspective (because I don't work for a developer). As a matter of course...this is exactly what I said:

But you see, you're wrong when you make assumptions. The purchaser who buys a newly constructed home pays more.

That said - anything that costs the end purchaser more money affects the demand for the developer's product negatively. So what exactly are you trying to argue???

Any tax that a builder or developer has to pass along to an end purchaser is classified or referred to as a "construction cost" - at least in our industry. If you want to argue over terminology then have at it if that will entertain you.

But the affect of the HST on the construction industry is negative. The government tried to sell it on us by saying that "we've eliminated the ebedded pst", and the purchaser will get "HST rebates" to offset it, but its all smoke and mirrors to hide the reality of things...eliminating hidden taxes do not get passed on as savings to consumers like economic theory suggests, and the government lies to us about how much their offsets are. Its all bullshit.

Call it what it really is - its a fucking tax grab.

And there is no doubt in my mind that the government is trying to sell this crap in every industry. You can keep parroting what the government says because the book theory sounds good to you, but I'd suggest that if you want to see the real affect on how the hst has really affected us just open your eyes and observe.

 

[Horse99]

As an individual, the HST cost ME More money, simply in dining out and Canuck tickets. However, as a businesswoman, my mother preferred the HST because it makes the book-keeping easier. The extra profits, as in MOST businesses, went to the owners, there were NOT new employees hired, nor lower costs passed onto the consumer.

 

[twoblues]

As an individual, the HST cost ME More money, simply in dining out and Canuck tickets. However, as a businesswoman, my mother preferred the HST because it makes the book-keeping easier. The extra profits, as in MOST businesses, went to the owners, there were NOT new employees hired, nor lower costs passed onto the consumer.

Didn't Canuck tickets have GST/PST on them anyways? Now...beer and food at the game

 

[huggzy]

As an individual, the HST cost ME More money, simply in dining out and Canuck tickets. However, as a businesswoman, my mother preferred the HST because it makes the book-keeping easier. The extra profits, as in MOST businesses, went to the owners, there were NOT new employees hired, nor lower costs passed onto the consumer.

Of course. Wilde is a bookkeeper as well. I'm sure his job is much easier with the HST (but he'll claim that all the businesses he works for have hired numerous employees and the owner passed all these newfound cost savings to their employees in extra bonuses)

 

[wilde]

Your such a dipshit Wilde. If you want to argue semantics so that you can save face then go right ahead. However, not once did I ever site this specifically from a developer's perspective (because I don't work for a developer). As a matter of course...this is exactly what I said:



That said - anything that costs the end purchaser more money affects the demand for the developer's product negatively. So what exactly are you trying to argue???

Any tax that a builder or developer has to pass along to an end purchaser is classified or referred to as a "construction cost" - at least in our industry. If you want to argue over terminology then have at it if that will entertain you.

But the affect of the HST on the construction industry is negative. The government tried to sell it on us by saying that "we've eliminated the ebedded pst", and the purchaser will get "HST rebates" to offset it, but its all smoke and mirrors to hide the reality of things...eliminating hidden taxes do not get passed on as savings to consumers like economic theory suggests, and the government lies to us about how much their offsets are. Its all bullshit.

Call it what it really is - its a fucking tax grab.

And there is no doubt in my mind that the government is trying to sell this crap in every industry. You can keep parroting what the government says because the book theory sounds good to you, but I'd suggest that if you want to see the real affect on how the hst has really affected us just open your eyes and observe.

Judging by the paragraph that I put into bold, it is becoming clear to me you have absolutely no fucking clue how the HST differs from PST. If I am a dipshit then you are not even fit to wipe my ass.

 

[huggzy]

Judging by the paragraph that I put into bold, it is becoming clear to me you have absolutely no fucking clue how the HST differs from PST. If I am a dipshit then you are not even fit to wipe my ass.

Then enlighten us Wilde.

Tell us how subtrades and material suppliers have passed on these so-called embedded PST savings to their contractors? You can't - because you don't work in the industry. You don't have a clue. You like to pretend you do, but you don't.

Are you going to suggest that 12% HST isn't charged on a newly constructed home? Are you going to challenge that the rebate for said HST isn't capped at $20,000?

Its simple Wilde. Refute this. Tell us how the HST has a positive effect on the construction industry when the end purchaser has to pay a full 12% now.

 

[wilde]

Then enlighten us Wilde.

Tell us how subtrades and material suppliers have passed on these so-called embedded PST savings to their contractors? You can't - because you don't work in the industry. You don't have a clue. You like to pretend you do, but you don't.

Are you going to suggest that 12% HST isn't charged on a newly constructed home? Are you going to challenge that the rebate for said HST isn't capped at $20,000?

Its simple Wilde. Refute this. Tell us how the HST has a positive effect on the construction industry when the end purchaser has to pay a full 12% now.

I never said I worked in the industry you fucking retard, I said some of my clients are in the industry. Can't you fucking read, you pea brain?

All things being equal, construction costs have gone down which means the profit margin has gone up. Now whether they choose to pass on the savings by lowering the prices is up to the developers and the contractors. In other words, if you want to blame someone blame your fucking greedy boss.

On a side note, you would be fucking crazy to buy any new construction at these ridiculous prices, HST or no HST. So the drop in demand has to do with the bull market in real estate as much as the HST. You are once again pinning this all on the HST without considering the other market forces at work. But then again, perhaps your brain can only handle one variable at a time.

 

[huggzy]

I never said I worked in the industry you fucking retard, I said some of my clients are in the industry. Can't you fucking read, you pea brain?

All things being equal, construction costs have gone down which means the profit margin has gone up. Now whether they choose to pass on the savings by lowering the prices is up to the developers and the contractors. In other words, if you want to blame someone blame your fucking greedy boss.

Where do you get this information that construction costs have gone down? They haven't. PST was dropped. However its pretty difficult to go and chase down amounts from every screw and nail manufacturer, or every grommet supplier, or every pea gravel delivery and try to maintain those so-called savings for the hundreds of thousands of products that go to the construction of a building.


And you gloss over the fact that theoretical savings on embedded pst is only one partial factor that is supposed to offset the final HST hit a buyer has to make.

You're lying if you're going to try and claim your construction clients are telling you there are lower construction costs, because if you were in the industry you would know that that's not the reality.

The fact that you point the finger at "my greedy boss" clearly indicates that you don't get it.

You're a bookkeeper. You're not a cost consultant. You put numbers to paper and report - you can't possibly understand the cause and effect of the factors that produce those numbers because you don't have the experience, education and training in the industry to do so.

 

[bcneil]

Didn't Canuck tickets have GST/PST on them anyways? Now...beer and food at the game

No only 5% gst prior to last season, now 12%. Makes a huge difference for season ticket holders, especially when they play 14 home playoff games as well.

And I have heard many times, if you can afford to go to Canucks games, or for heaven sakes....go to a restaurant.....then you deserve to pay extra tax.

 

[wilde]

Where do you get this information that construction costs have gone down? They haven't. PST was dropped. However its pretty difficult to go and chase down amounts from every screw and nail manufacturer, or every grommet supplier, or every pea gravel delivery and try to maintain those so-called savings for the hundreds of thousands of products that go to the construction of a building.


And you gloss over the fact that theoretical savings on embedded pst is only one partial factor that is supposed to offset the final HST hit a buyer has to make.

You're lying if you're going to try and claim your construction clients are telling you there are lower construction costs, because if you were in the industry you would know that that's not the reality.

The fact that you point the finger at "my greedy boss" clearly indicates that you don't get it.

You're a bookkeeper. You're not a cost consultant. You put numbers to paper and report - you can't possibly understand the cause and effect of the factors that produce those numbers because you don't have the experience, education and training in the industry to do so.

I am not a bookkeeper, please show me where I said I am. I do see why you are pissed off, sitting at home, no work today I guess... I think I have reach my limit for talking to idiots today, see you tomorrow.

 

[huggzy]

I am not a bookkeeper, please show me where I said I am. I do see why you are pissed off, sitting at home, no work today I guess... I think I have reach my limit for talking to idiots today, see you tomorrow.

So you're likely even less qualified to comment on this industry then I assumed. Bad on me.

I see you're leaving with the typical loser's parting shot when they can't justify their arguments any longer "I'm done talking to you..."


The problem Wilde, is that guys like you come across intelligent. You speak well. You have an opinion on everything. But people like you are dangerous because you take things too far by trying to influence people on economic theory you read out of a book or parrot from politicians because to do so would support your real position, when you don't have any practical working knowledge about the subject you are spouting off about - but you speak like you think you're an expert on the subject.

Economic theory has many flaws...you should know this if you've studied it. The greatest flaw is the assumption of perfect knowledge in the marketplace.

Stick to what you know and stay the fuck out of our wallets.