Bin Laden dead
- Thread starter bcneil
- Start date
Shakerod....that's just brilliant. No...you must be correct...terrorists were not planning to attack the US since 9-11..it's all propaganda. The terrorists since 9-11 have only wanted to raise butterfiles and watch rainbows form.
Hmm... 20 well documented incidents where terrorist plots were foiled:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foiled_Islamic_terrorist_plots_in_the_post-9/11_United_States
No..but Shakenhead....I mean Shakerod...sorry. These must have all been made up....the terrorists only want to be friends with the US. You are so smart to have figured that out all by your little self.
Wow....jnewton..no disrespect intended but it's only a bit like Ernie and Bert if you have the mind of a 6 year old and believe that world politics are as simple as Sesame Street.
You demonstrate my reflections so well. When any enforceement or security action is successful in preventing criminal/terrorist acts...it amuses me how many of the masses believe that the security efforts were not worth it as they believe no incident was about to happen. By your backwards logic I suppose banks should not have safes....no one would try to steal anything. I guess they didn't need any security at the Royal Wedding....no terrorist would want to harm Royalty....hey...why do we even have Police? No one would ever try to commit a crime if there were no Police around.
Give your head a shake...the world outside and even within our borders is a nasty place because of the few evil and unscrupulous that would love to prey on the innocent without the checks and balances that our security, policing and military actions afford us. I have personally known people who have died, voluntarily, to give you the civil liberties that you espouse so dearly. Spend several years fighting for your country and other inncocents in the Middle East or elsewhere, protecting civilians from tyrants, and reach out to embrace an Afgan 7 year old who is hugging you're sweaty and exhausted leg, whom is so glad you are there and then see if you see things through the same rose-covered glasses. I suppose you also think security should be relaxed at airports as well...
Touched a nerve, hmmm? Such passion, defending the official line. I find that usually happens when the person doing the defending is directly connected with the thing they are defending. Usually goes with the "insider" attitude, that everyone who disagrees is ignorant of "how things really are". Sorry, but nothing you said is in any way new to me. I've thought through all of it before. The argument you give that I should in effect shut up because people have died defending my civil liberties and I have no right to complain about the methods (reading between the lines of what you wrote, but I think it's a reasonable read of what you were implying) is, quite frankly, the argument that is used to justify tyranny. The ability to arbitrarily arrest without proof, indefinite detention incommunicado of citizens, denial of Habeas Corpus ... if your friends gave their precious blood defending these and all the other violations of the spirit of the Constitution that our government has perpetrated on the citizens, then I am very sad indeed for them for they spilled their blood in an unjust cause.
Lest you forget, most of what was done in Nazi Germany was done under the law. Watch Judgement at Nuremberg sometime, if you haven't before. Or read about how many officials in postwar Germany attempted to exonerate themselves by claiming that they were just following the lawful orders of their superiors. Now, before you jump to the wrong conclusion, I am NOT comparing the foot slogger in the military to Nazi's. What I am saying is that the color of law is used to justify and allow atrocious violations of civil liberty, usually under the guise of "protecting" that society.
In the movie "A Man for All Seasons", there is an exchange between Thomas Moore and William Roper. Roper is dramatically expounding on how he would cut down all the laws if needed to hunt out the devil. Moore then asks him what Roper would do when the devil turned round on him, all the laws being flat? Where would he hide then? Moore explains that England is planted thick with laws and once they are all flat, could anyone withstand the result? He concludes by telling Roper that he would give the devil himself the benefit of law, for his (Moore) own sake. Sadly, we have been all too willing to cut down the laws or create new ones that violate long cherished principles, just so we can have a go at the devil.
Rose colored glasses? No, I know exactly how deadly the threat could be. I've read the Koran several times and knew long before those horrendous attacks that Islam carries within it the seeds of dreadful atrocity. All it takes is for someone to use what is written to justify their actions. Interesting how it comes back to using "law" (in this case, the law of God) to justify violating the liberty of others in the name of protecting society (in this case, Islamic society as interpreted by them).
Finally, in answer to your question, yes, I do think security should be changed. I remember watching an interview a few years back with the long time head of El Al security. He thought the new body scanners and the rules that went with them were a gross violation of personal freedom and dignity, and a huge waste of resources. His comments about security are very significant, considering how free they have been from incidents and the incredibly high potential they have for being attacked.
A very typical knee jerk response. If I had recently moved here and was complaining, your comment would be reasonable. Having been born here and lived all my life here, I do believe that gives me the right to be appalled by the direction the country is going.
In response to you, I can just as easily suggest you move to North Korea. You should be quite safe there. The only terrorists you need to worry about are the ones who wield the power of the State and have badges. Just stop trying to change my country into North Korea.
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If you want to believe in fairy tales, go ahead and fill your boots. We will have to agree to disagree.
Here is an article in the Washington Post from May 25th 2010 talking about how the U.S. government faked Bin Laden videohttp://open.salon.com/blog/gordon_wagner/2010/05/27/former_cia_officials_admit_to_faking_bin_laden_video, as well as a person who worked in three different U.S. administrations who has come out and said Bin Laden has been dead for 10 years: http://thegldnrule.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/osama-on-ice/
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That is what is very troubling about all of this. I have now heard of at least 6 different versions of what happened, some of them so different as to be impossible to reconcile with one another. Granted, different eye witnesses would see different details of the event but the broad outline should be the same, especially since we are referring to eyewitnesses accounts from people who are trained to be highly observant. It's as if some of the crew of the Titanic reported that the bow struck an iceberg and some reported the ship backed into an iceberg.
oh oh, Al Queda admits he is dead
what will the tin foil hat wearing conspiracy, blame bush/us for everything crowd do now?
so either al queda is lying (again as they claimed they attacked the towers) and so is bush/usa
OR they told the truth (and so did bush/usa) but the evidence, all that false evidence
decisions decisions
what will the tin foil hat wearing conspiracy, blame bush/us for everything crowd do now?
so either al queda is lying (again as they claimed they attacked the towers) and so is bush/usa
OR they told the truth (and so did bush/usa) but the evidence, all that false evidence
decisions decisions
Unfortunately, them agreeing he is dead doesn't really put to rest the question of discrepancies in the accounts. Nor does it speak to the question of when he actually died. There is a reasonable case to be made (not saying I agree with it, but it is reasonable) that Al Queda had as much to gain as anyone from the belief that he was still alive.
It's kind of funny how Pakistan is all up in arms about the Americans sneaking in and taking him out. He 100% has had high level help from both military and government people in Pakistan for years and years you just cannot deny that fact, Which means after all the planning and training the seals did to carry out the raid to get him if they had informed Pakistan officials before they went in and Bin Laden was tipped off and escaped it would have left little doubt about Pakistani people actively helping him and where would that have left things ? It would have left especially if the American people found out the president little choice but to declare Pakistan an enemy nation and what a fucking shit storm that would have created.
Nothing cavalier about slowly watching OUR country descend into tyranny.
It really has little to do with the state of the world and much more to do with the state of the country. How many times have you seen written even on this little website, words to the effect that someone doesn't want to report a crime that happened to them because they fear the police more than any possible help is worth?
When people fear their governments, that is tyranny. A people who fears the government is not free.
When governments fear their people, that is liberty. A government that fears the people will not oppress them.
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It is fear of what my government has done that compels me to post this message.
NOTHING I have written should be construed to suggest a call to arms. The accusation of rebellion is the refuge of tyranny seeking to stifle and unwilling to engage in honest debate.
NOTHING I have written should be construed to suggest a call to arms. The accusation of rebellion is the refuge of tyranny seeking to stifle and unwilling to engage in honest debate.
No, but I have reason for concern about the way this country is headed.
I was not referring to you personally but rather to the sentiment, often expressed here and many other places, that the police are the last people you want to call when you are in trouble.
Hunka, Hunka, Hunka ... can you please send me the name of yours? He must be really good.LMAO....you might wanna call a shrink
LOL ... I said your shrink, not your ATF!I would but she say's I'm all she can handle at the moment...I take up a lot of her time
Wait, I want the PERB name of your ATF too! :eyebrows:
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Without Police we would have absolute anarchy.....you wouldn't be able to sit in your little computer room typing away....you'd be up in arms trying to defend your property, possessions and loved ones from those who would take everything from you if there were no laws.
I'm not saying that you fall in this category, I believe that you are just a hyper-paranoid person looking for conspiracies with everything you do, but when people are afraid to call the Police...they usually have good reason to because they're involved in things that would easily put them behind bars for long periods.
You don't know how easy we have it here. Guess what Police do here when you declare a false tax return or speak against the government, minor offences, NOTHING. Guess what Police in other countries controlled by dictators do to people for similar offences.....you guessed it...like I said we have it easy here.
Without the enhanced security measures, we would not be "free".....the terrorist threat would be "free" to terrorize us. Canada is the one target that Al-Queda has listed as a top priority target, that it has not been able to hit yet....do you think that we would have been able to last the last ten years without these security measures.
Jnewton, you've been proven wrong over the course of this thread, even Al Queda agrees with the US account of Bin Laden's killing, they have not disputed any of the matters of fact presented....yet you want to dispute it? And as for your arguement as to why the "versions" of events have changed..simple...media releases on major world events ALWAYS trickle down with more and more reliable information given over time. The account of events involved in his killing has evolved over time as more and more information has been released.
Bin Laden didn't die years ago, he was killed by a specialized Navy Seal team similar to our own Joint Task Force 2, last week, and corrupt powers in Pakistan most likely have been aiding him for years. No wonder it took so long to get him, and no wonder the US didn't consult Pakistan regarding the operation.
Pakistan is wearing a lot of egg on it's face right now in regards to US relations, but the US will not openly discuss that.
And Hunka Hunka....I agree with all your posts thus far.
