Are we in danger of lead poisoning?

sdw

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Are we in danger of lead poisoning? It turns out that our older Canadian cities may have the same issue as Flint Michigan says the National Post in this article:
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...ater-supply-cant-happen-in-canada-think-again

The City of Toronto has a page on their website on the issue: http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=35bcfe4eda8ae310VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

WaterToday.ca has a nice piece on the issue: http://www.watertoday.ca/ts-lead-pipes-history.asp

Lead has been used in water pipes for as long as we can remember. Abundant, malleable and resistant, the metal is ideal for the production of pipes to carry water. The first known lead pipes systems in western culture appeared in Rome, where sheets of lead (plumbum) were used by plumbarii (plumbers) to line Roman aqueducts and lead pipes to convey water.
Further down, we come to the answer to the question of are we in danger of lead poisoning. If the building you live in was built before 1955 and it's water service line has never been replaced - the answer is probably yes. If that old building that you live in is in Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto or Winnipeg; you probably have lead water service lines.

Plumbers we talked to in Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto displayed a profound distrust of municipalities, questioning their goodwill, transparency and procedures. According to them nothing gets fixed because the fix is in.

Back to square one. Today, as far as we know there are slightly less than the estimated 75,000 lead service lines in Montreal which the city vowed to fix by 2026, a few years ago. In Toronto there were 65,000 in 2007 but 20,000 have since been replaced under the Lead Pipe Replacement Program. Hamilton has some 30,000, Ottawa around 40,000 and Winnipeg 25,000. And there are waiting lists and no guarantees that the replacement programs won’t be canceled as other priorities beg and cities run out of funds.
 

westwoody

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Coincidentally, you mention the Romans lasting 1200 years, one purported reason for their downfall was lead lining their aqueducts.
 

sdw

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Coincidentally, you mention the Romans lasting 1200 years, one purported reason for their downfall was lead lining their aqueducts.
There is that, and then there is the shipping of Wine in Lead/Lead Glazed containers. Then there was the fact that the Romans added lead to Wine to increase it's sweetness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome_and_wine
To enhance flavor, white wine might age on its lees, and chalk or marble dust was sometimes added to reduce acidity.[2] Wines were often exposed to high temperatures and "baked," a process similar to that used to make modern Madeira. To enhance a wine's sweetness, a portion of the wine must was boiled to concentrate the sugars in the process known as defrutum and then added to the rest of the fermenting batch. (Columella's writings suggest that the Romans believed boiling the must acted as a preservative as well.) Lead was also sometimes used as a sweetening agent,[3] but honey could also be added, as much as 3 kilograms (6.6 lb) recommended to sufficiently sweeten 12 litres (3.2 US gal) of wine to Roman tastes. Another technique was to withhold a portion of the sweeter, unfermented must and blend it with the finished wine, a method known today as süssreserve.[20]
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/leadpoisoning.html
Sheets of lead were used to line Roman aqueducts (as was cement) and lead pipes to convey water. But lead also was known to be unwholesome and, for that reason, pipes made of clay were preferred—as Vitruvius, who wrote during the time of Augustus, explains.

"Water conducted through earthen pipes is more wholesome than that through lead; indeed that conveyed in lead must be injurious, because from it white lead [ceruse or lead carbonate, PbCO3] is obtained, and this is said to be injurious to the human system. Hence, if what is generated from it is pernicious, there can be no doubt that itself cannot be a wholesome body. This may be verified by observing the workers in lead, who are of a pallid colour; for in casting lead, the fumes from it fixing on the different members, and daily burning them, destroy the vigour of the blood; water should therefore on no account be conducted in leaden pipes if we are desirous that it should be wholesome. That the flavour of that conveyed in earthen pipes is better, is shewn at our daily meals, for all those whose tables are furnished with silver vessels, nevertheless use those made of earth, from the purity of the flavour being preserved in them" (VIII.6.10-11).

Columella, too, remarks on the advantage of terracotta pipes. "Rain-water is after all most suitable to the body's health, and is regarded as uncommonly good if it is conveyed through earthen pipes into a covered cistern" (I.5.2).
Rather than encrusted lead pipes, a more probable cause of chronic lead poisoning (plumbism or "saturnism" because its symptoms seemed indicative of the planet's characteristics) was the consumption of defrutum and sapa. Cato, Columella, Pliny, and Palladius (On Agriculture, XI.18) all describe how unfermented grape juice (mustum, must, which which "mustard" is derived) was boiled to concentrate its natural sugars. "A product of art, not of nature," says Pliny (XIV.80), the must was reduced to one half (defrutum) or even one third its volume (sapa), and the thickened syrup used to sweeten and preserve wine and fruit that otherwise was sour or would spoil. Cato, for example, recommends that olives and pears be preserved in boiled must (VII.4) as does Varro (I.59.3). And Columella indicates that defrutum should always be boiled with quinces or some other flavoring (XII.20.2). Apicius, in De Re Coquinaria offers directions for preserving quinces in defrutum and honey (I.21) and added the rich syrup to many of his sauces to enhance the color and flavor of almost every dish, whether meat, fish, fowl, or fruit. (The fact that the reduction was used to color food indicates that red wine was used rather than white.)

In De Agri Cultura, the earliest example of Latin prose (c.160 BC), Cato gives directions for reducing must in "a copper or lead vessel" over a slow fire, "stirring constantly to prevent scorching; continue the boiling, until you have boiled off a half" (CVII). Writing in the first century AD, Columella elaborates on the process.

"Some people put the must in leaden vessels and by boiling reduce it by a quarter, others by a third. There is no doubt that anyone who boiled it down to one-half would be likely to make a better thick form of must and therefore more profitable for use....But, before the must is poured into the boiling-vessels, it will be well that those which are made of lead should be coated inside with good oil and be well-rubbed, and that then the must should be put in....The vessels themselves in which the thickened and boiled-down must is boiled should be of lead rather than of brass; for, in the boiling, brazen vessels throw off copper rust, and spoil the flavour of the preservative....Must of the sweetest possible flavour will be boiled down to a third of its original volume and when boiled down, as I have said above, is called defrutum" (XII.19.1, 19.6, 20.1, 21.1; notice that the definition is not always consistent).

Pliny, too, recommends that the must be prepared in lead vessels.

"Also boiled-down must and must of new wine should be boiled when there is no moon, which means at the conjunction of that planet, and not on any other day; and moreover leaden and not copper jars should be used, and some walnuts should be thrown into the liquor, for those are said to absorb the smoke" (XIV.136).
So, it seems that the bigger the Roman Empire got, the more Lead was found in their Wine. Concentrated Wine was boiled to reduce it's volume for shipping, that's why the Greeks and Romans watered their Wine by 4 parts or more of Water.

The problem in Flint became worse when the City changed it's water supply, that also seems to be the case when copper pipe is joined to lead pipe.
 

vancity_cowboy

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Iif your house is older than about 20 years with copper plumbing, the solder used most likely contains lead, and the combination of the 2 metals with the slightly acidic water in the pipes is causing the lead to leach into your water - a brita filter is probably all you need to fix the problem
 

westwoody

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I replaced some of my copper pipes with pvc. The copper pipes were full of crap, green oxides plus god knows what.
Water is probably safer now and flows much better.
It is easy to do for anyone reasonably handy, just get a real plumber to sign off on it for insurance.

Got a new fridge with a filter too, and drink a lot more water now.
 

sdw

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I replaced some of my copper pipes with pvc. The copper pipes were full of crap, green oxides plus god knows what.
Water is probably safer now and flows much better.
It is easy to do for anyone reasonably handy, just get a real plumber to sign off on it for insurance.

Got a new fridge with a filter too, and drink a lot more water now.
:) You just know that once we are all switched over to pvc, some researcher is going to find that the pvc is even worse than lead or copper. Such is life. :(
 

vancity_cowboy

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remember for a while we had that grey plastic tubing for water pipes? they were polybutylene

then we had the rat population explosion during the 90's, and the poisoned rats could hear the water running through the polybutylene pipes. they were chewing through the water tubes to quench their thirst (a side effect of the rat poison was a huge thirst)

the building code got changed virtually overnight so polybutylene was out and cross-linked polyvinylchlorine (pvc) was in as it is a much tougher compound that the rats can't chew through
 

plumbcrawl

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I replaced some of my copper pipes with pvc. The copper pipes were full of crap, green oxides plus god knows what.
Water is probably safer now and flows much better.
It is easy to do for anyone reasonably handy, just get a real plumber to sign off on it for insurance.

Got a new fridge with a filter too, and drink a lot more water now.
The glue and primer from PVC pipe to make joints are terrible for you. Plus hot water makes pvc brittle. New pex is good, but if you have the clear piping you will soon realize how gross your water is (or lift the lid on your toilet tank and have a peak)
 

westwoody

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Ask your city councillor. This is not an MP's jurisdiction.
It might not be possible to determine this. Records get lost or destroyed, the people who installed some water mains will be long retired.
 

sdw

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So I read through all of this. I suppose the question remains. How much lead was used in Vancouver's pipes back in the day? And how much of it has been replaced? That seems to be the issue in some of our sister cities, such as Montreal, and Toronto. Etc. Perhaps we should be asking these questions to our local MP's.
Vancouver homes are sitting on land that is too expensive to have an old house sitting on it. Even if it's an "Heritage Building" the interior will have have been gutted and renovated. Vancouver had a program in the 80s where they were upgrading the water pipe from the main to the house from 1 inch to 2 inches - something about ability to support sprinklers - I remember talking to one of the guys working on the street where I was living at the time.

And then, after typing that - I go to Lambert Plumbing's site and read this: http://www.lamberthomecomfort.com/our-services/water-main-line-repair-replacement/
Why do I need to repair or replace my water main line?

Water main lines are changed most often for these reasons:

The water line is leaking or a product used in the line isn’t performing up to par. A common product that fails are plastic pipe fittings. We see this a lot–make sure that your plumbing contractor uses brass fittings instead of plastic! It’s simply the best choice for the Vancouver, BC area; it’s a much better quality and does not crack.
There is an obstruction in the line or it is broken. Common obstructions include roots and build-up in the drains. The city of Vancouver, BC flushes water main lines periodically to help rid them of this build-up and sediment.
You want to boost the volume of water coming into your home, particularly if your galvanized piping is virtually rusted shut. Older water main lines tend to be made of lead and galvanized pipes that are particularly prone to mineral deposits and rust that accumulate inside the pipes and cut down on water flow.
You want to take care of future water line problems and proactively make repairs and replacements before problems get bigger. We can install new water main line pipes or simply repair existing lines in good condition—whatever is right for your specific needs!
So, there are old houses that have Lead Water Service pipes in Vancouver/Lower Mainland.

ps I was googling to find out the date that Vancouver had the replacement program going when the Lambert Plumbing site was top of the list
 
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