With 4 tough police officers trained in hand to hand combat, I don't think he would have even gotten close to hitting any of them with the stapler. As for him being big, well there is 4 of them, (all professionally trained), and 1 of him. If it was only 1 or 2 police officers and him, I could maybe see the justification, but not with 4. However.....no one will ever really know what was going through anyone's minds at that moment as 1 guy is dead and the other 4 aren't talking.
another taser incident
- Thread starter bustyluster
- Start date
excellent post btw...
but why let logic get in the way of hysteria and sensationalism...
i have never once in my posts said that tasers should be banned, in fact i said i think the officers should have them. i have also never said that they shouldn't use force. in fact i have said there are times when force is absolutely necessary and called for.
what i am saying is that the police need to stop being so lazy and do their jobs properly and not use the taser as a weapon of compliance like they are doing now cause its easier then the other options they are supposed to use first.
A lot of people fucked up on this one and the cops were just the last in a chain of events.
I will agree with smackyo, the cops are getting just a little to ready to accelerate the use of force, including deadly force in situations it is not called for.
From experience, I found myself along with three other officers confronting a disturbed individual in a confined space, about 15ft. by 25ft. A fairly big individual with not a lot to loose, he was doing double life. He also had a stack of about 200+ metal meal trays right beside him that he was throwing at us anytime we came close to him. It took about 20 minutes, and the situation was under control. A couple of bumps and scrapes, but nobody was dead, and no he didn't run out of trays to throw. It can be done and those four RCMP officers should have been able to do it, and from my experience I say could have done.
As an aside, my experience was in the old B.C. Pen. We didn't taser him, because they hadn't been invented at that time, we didn't use batons on him because they were used only by the riot squad and we couldn't shoot him because weapons weren't brought into the main hall or any part of the prison when the population was loose.
I will agree with smackyo, the cops are getting just a little to ready to accelerate the use of force, including deadly force in situations it is not called for.
From experience, I found myself along with three other officers confronting a disturbed individual in a confined space, about 15ft. by 25ft. A fairly big individual with not a lot to loose, he was doing double life. He also had a stack of about 200+ metal meal trays right beside him that he was throwing at us anytime we came close to him. It took about 20 minutes, and the situation was under control. A couple of bumps and scrapes, but nobody was dead, and no he didn't run out of trays to throw. It can be done and those four RCMP officers should have been able to do it, and from my experience I say could have done.
As an aside, my experience was in the old B.C. Pen. We didn't taser him, because they hadn't been invented at that time, we didn't use batons on him because they were used only by the riot squad and we couldn't shoot him because weapons weren't brought into the main hall or any part of the prison when the population was loose.
hey Panther it is well known how corrupt Vancouver's police are (at least the young guys). I know a few people who have had thousands stolen by the cops. Yes some of it was dirty money and most not. I know of one AMP girl that lost $20 000 to a cop during a bust. I have heard this new group of gang bang cops are quite good at stomping on people's rights also. Are you going to stand up for them? You are the problem with people who stand up for cops because your tone and attitude seems to justify the bad ones. I don't have any problem with the cops and the job they do. I do have a problem with the bad ones and the people that stand up for them (mostly those are good cops)
I didn't also see any acknowledgment in your reply that there was a problem with the cops killing a deaf person....I rest my case.
they didn't kill the deaf guy, they just tasered him cause in the words of pantherdash, "they feared for their lives" with a man just coming out of a shower in his bathroom. lol, now theres a rational fear eh?
Assumptions are based on your sig PIMP! And no cop in his right mind would ever hang out with a pimp, especially a stupid one!
So your claims to having cop friends all over the country is a real stretch. Why do all you guys claim you have cops as friends....does it add to your argument? It's almost always bullshit and if they are friends they're probably embarrassed to admit it. Get it right...cops hang out with cops and don't trust people outside of their profession.Second a cop would never say that another cop's actions were criminal when they are responding to a call. Negligent maybe but criminal is a strong word. Adds to the load of bullshit about your imaginary cop friends. The fact is that cops don't usually get found guilty criminally because they lack one major component of committing a crime--mens rea, or a guilty or criminal mind.
The fact of the matter is that they don't take chances when responding to an aggressive person. A 2002 SFU Criminology PHd study found that on average, VPD officers get assaulted once every three shifts and that ranges from getting spat on to getting kicked, punched and being run over by a vehicle. People like yourself have no respect for police, therefore police have responded to that by not taking chances with people who place themselves in situations that they must deal with.
You're the one with a skewed sense of reality, believing everything you see on the tube. Ya, very intelligent. And it's not as if we have more than one opinion from the various Canadian news sources. Grab a brain and grow up, PIMP!
Panther
well seeing as how you are a cop and a bad one at that to defend which is obviously such ridiculous acts on the part of some of these officers i'll take your word on a few things. but what is so hard to believe about me having friends that are police? they had to grow up somewhere and with someone right? they weren't just born cops.Assumptions are based on your sig PIMP! And no cop in his right mind would ever hang out with a pimp, especially a stupid one!
Second a cop would never say that another cop's actions were criminal when they are responding to a call. Negligent maybe but criminal is a strong word. Adds to the load of bullshit about your imaginary cop friends. The fact is that cops don't usually get found guilty criminally because they lack one major component of committing a crime--mens rea, or a guilty or criminal mind.
The fact of the matter is that they don't take chances when responding to an aggressive person. A 2002 SFU Criminology PHd study found that on average, VPD officers get assaulted once every three shifts and that ranges from getting spat on to getting kicked, punched and being run over by a vehicle. People like yourself have no respect for police, therefore police have responded to that by not taking chances with people who place themselves in situations that they must deal with.
You're the one with a skewed sense of reality, believing everything you see on the tube. Ya, very intelligent. And it's not as if we have more than one opinion from the various Canadian news sources. Grab a brain and grow up, PIMP!
Panther
you are right about one thing that makes me think even more that you are a cop. police rarely hang around anyone else that isn't a cop. they get married to cops and they hang out with cops for the larger part. but i grew up with these guys, we went to high school together and played on the same teams and did a lot of stupid young people shit together so i don't stop talking to them just cause they are cops and vice versa.
you are right about another thing, fucking scary i know. police rarely get charged cause of course they lack the criminal mind. the reason why is cause the bad ones think they are above the law in the first place so how could it apply to them in their mind in the first place. do i think they wanted robert d. to die at yvr? no i don't think that was their goal. but they were extremely negligent with not only their decision making process and for some reason not administering cpr after they had him incapacitated, he died while in their care and they had training which could have prevented it which makes them responsible and i hope guilt eats away at them over his death til their dying day.
exact quote from my cop friend in ontario "dummy cops like that are the reason why we all look bad.", he was pissed off when he saw that video. i also have a good friend that retired sergeant from the vpd some years back and i was talking to him about it. now he's a little more conservative old school cop but he even said that it looked to him like a better job could have been done and that they rushed to the taser.
so again with your assumptions that "people like myself" have no respect for the police when i've said time and time again that it was "these officers", or "the few idiot officers" and things of that nature. i don't paint the whole force with the same brush yet you continue to read and see what you want to see as opposed to my actual words.
any time i have had dealings with the police where i may have a had a few drinks too many and was downtown i have been nothing but polite which is why i always end up never having to see the back seat of their car or the drunk tank. i acknowledge again as i already have numerous times that they have a hard job. but thats just it right there. its their job, they choose it. i'm pretty sure they knew it wasn't going to be happy fun rainbows, lollipops and gummy bears dropping from the sky. they should have known what they were getting into and been honest with themselves about weather or not they could do the job properly.
you mention about them getting assaulted an average of once every three shifts. if i were becoming a cop i'd think that would be expected. i would have thought it might be higher. old saying here, "if you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen." a lot of these officers can't take the heat if this is how they respond and therefore should not be in that profession. end of the day we are all human and humans make mistakes but if you have a job where you are given guns, tasers, batons and a means to legally detain people and take away their freedom then you better strive to make as few mistakes as possible and not be lazy and always reach for your taser to get it over with quicker, but do your fucking job properly.
you making excuses for their continued negligence, inappropriate use of force and continual abuse of power is very frightening. they got a place for people like you that are that blind. its called north korea. guess what? the police there are never wrong either and it seems to work for them eh.
let me tell you about the respect that i have for the police and the job. i have enough respect for it to have realized when i was being recruited that it is probably a job that i couldn't do to the standards that i would hold police. having to see what they see every day and deal with all the shit the good ones deal with. i would get too frustrated cause the law and whats right are sometimes two different things that don't always come in line with each other.
but there you have it, i was honest with myself and more of these people that get into it need to be as well. i don't care what you say officer pantherdash you do not have the right to go straight to max force or even just use of force cause your perception of what the public thinks of you is bad and you predetermine that you will get hurt. grow a fucking pair and do your job properly. if someone is aggressive or known to be aggressive then take precautions yes but not every situation requires you to go in guns blazing there robocop.
now seeing as how you continue with the negative pimp reference i'll have to stoop to your level again and let you know that your mom is leaving for south america tomorrow on her "taste the cocks of the world tour" i'll let her know you said goodbye.
Hey, someone mentioned that not everyone can be calm, cool and collected when in a dangerous situation with a fiream/weapon etc... aren't cops trained to be just that? and if they aren't, why not?
I can understand that you might not get an exact ricochet from a bullet, but if you fire right at the guys feet, chances are you're going to get him and not someone else... and no matter what, chances are ...there would not be a lethal wound in any case.
Someone else mentioned the media... sure they are sensationalizing it. Bully for them... but it's what is needed to bring attention to an issue that would otherwise be swept under the table. Making noise is what the media does... I only fault them when they try to make the news, instead of reporting the news.
Just see CNN's reports when news on iraq/iran/afgh./paris hilton or lindsay lohen gets low... they just start making shit up, supposing this and that and then going off on what would happen if any of that were true etc
I can understand that you might not get an exact ricochet from a bullet, but if you fire right at the guys feet, chances are you're going to get him and not someone else... and no matter what, chances are ...there would not be a lethal wound in any case.
Someone else mentioned the media... sure they are sensationalizing it. Bully for them... but it's what is needed to bring attention to an issue that would otherwise be swept under the table. Making noise is what the media does... I only fault them when they try to make the news, instead of reporting the news.
Just see CNN's reports when news on iraq/iran/afgh./paris hilton or lindsay lohen gets low... they just start making shit up, supposing this and that and then going off on what would happen if any of that were true etc
Cops are trained to remain calm in difficult situations but they're only human (amen!). Some of the situations they are in are extremely difficult and every situation is different. You can't expect them to be trained how to deal with all situations. They practice scenerios and every time they are different like in real life, but mistakes can happen.
As for your comment about aiming to wound, it doesn't happen, unless the cop's heart beat is at like 40 and the suspect isn't a moving target, which they usually are. Add to that, that the adrenaline pumps in and they get "tunnel vision," where their vision and hearing is impaired because so much effort and resources are required to concentrate on the suspect at hand and to avoid getting injured or killed. It's a survival instinct. So they're trained to aim at the largest mass of the symbolic assailant, its torso.
And come on man, don't be so naive, I thought you were more intelligent than that. You've seen one too many American cop shows. Get it right, police NEVER aim at something that may end up as ricochet. They don't aim at someone's feet so that it can bounce off, they don't shoot at tires of moving vehicles. This only happens in the movies. Do you know how fast a bullet is travelling when it ricochets?! About 200 km/h...pretty darn fast. If that bullet hits someone, including the officer it can cause serious injuries or death. Concentrating your already depleted resources with the adrenaline to aim at someone's feet, so that you only injure him, when he's already a clear and present danger would be stupid.
My point as before, people who place themselves in situations necessitating a police response should expect anything. Just don't be a jerk and you'll be fine.
And thanks to you CJ Tylers, you've just proved another point, that the general public is too naive and misinformed about police procedures and weapons to be able to criticise their actions, therefore the only people who should investigate police procedure is other police.
Panther
Um..I don't watch american cop shows.
My father was a prison gaurd...Okallah, in NW. You know, They were trained to fire shots to disable prisoners, as well as fire with deadly effect.
Cops deal with people they don't know the measure of. Well, prison gaurds do know the measure of the people they are dealing with... none of them are nice, and all of them have potentially lethal attitudes. Sure, Okallah had alot of druggies, but it had other people too...people who you didn't want on your side of the bars.
So, if your basic irregulars like prison gaurds can be trained to do ricochet shots... why can't highly trained cops? Last I checked, if a ricochet struck another inmate, it would still mean a lawsuit for the prison... just as undesireable as striking a citizen.
Maybe it would be easier to ricochet with a buckshot rifle, who knows... but there are less lethal training methods. To be sure, it is EASIER to fire at a center of mass, and if you are attempting to kill someone, that's what should happen.
With the ricochet, you are firing at the mans feet. By the time it strikes him, there is a considerable loss in momentum... and the angle of ricochet will be very close (it would take some bizarre instance to not be) to the angle of firing incidence...which would put it squarely in the legs... not the upper body.
Now, as to what that would do... I imagine being shot in the legs would present most people with ALOT of pain... and I think they would have trouble with any further movement, or be limited to crawling.
I'm not saying that lethal means (Tasers, guns) shouldn't be used, just used correctly.
Example: Last night, the man was (and hopefully this was the case, and not a mistake such as a cell phone) waving around a handgun. A 15 year force vetran responded correctly with lethal force.
If the man had been unarmed, or waving a cell phone, then it wouldn't have been the correct response. Firing a taser at a naked man who just stepped out of his shower was not a proper response. Firing a taser at an agitated, dehydrated, hungry, unarmed (not carrying a lethal weapon) man is unjustified.
Police are supposed to be trained to work through a situation using the best means to end the conflict possible. Not the fastest means... they are supposed to disarm a situation before it escalates... and baring weapons is a sure fire way of escalating a situation.
It's not that one thing or the other that happened... it's the disturbing trend that is occurring that is the real source of concern. Improper use of deadly weapons, poor training, "easiest way first" mentality. Heck, you could even go back to the beatings that the VPD gave those scumbag drug dealers (not that I don't think they deserved it, but it wasn't something the cops should've been doing)... even before it.
Police brutality has been increasing, though perhaps not at the exponential rate the media portrays it... but it certainly is increasing and needs to be checked. An independant inquiry is veyr much needed.
My father was a prison gaurd...Okallah, in NW. You know, They were trained to fire shots to disable prisoners, as well as fire with deadly effect.
Cops deal with people they don't know the measure of. Well, prison gaurds do know the measure of the people they are dealing with... none of them are nice, and all of them have potentially lethal attitudes. Sure, Okallah had alot of druggies, but it had other people too...people who you didn't want on your side of the bars.
So, if your basic irregulars like prison gaurds can be trained to do ricochet shots... why can't highly trained cops? Last I checked, if a ricochet struck another inmate, it would still mean a lawsuit for the prison... just as undesireable as striking a citizen.
Maybe it would be easier to ricochet with a buckshot rifle, who knows... but there are less lethal training methods. To be sure, it is EASIER to fire at a center of mass, and if you are attempting to kill someone, that's what should happen.
With the ricochet, you are firing at the mans feet. By the time it strikes him, there is a considerable loss in momentum... and the angle of ricochet will be very close (it would take some bizarre instance to not be) to the angle of firing incidence...which would put it squarely in the legs... not the upper body.
Now, as to what that would do... I imagine being shot in the legs would present most people with ALOT of pain... and I think they would have trouble with any further movement, or be limited to crawling.
I'm not saying that lethal means (Tasers, guns) shouldn't be used, just used correctly.
Example: Last night, the man was (and hopefully this was the case, and not a mistake such as a cell phone) waving around a handgun. A 15 year force vetran responded correctly with lethal force.
If the man had been unarmed, or waving a cell phone, then it wouldn't have been the correct response. Firing a taser at a naked man who just stepped out of his shower was not a proper response. Firing a taser at an agitated, dehydrated, hungry, unarmed (not carrying a lethal weapon) man is unjustified.
Police are supposed to be trained to work through a situation using the best means to end the conflict possible. Not the fastest means... they are supposed to disarm a situation before it escalates... and baring weapons is a sure fire way of escalating a situation.
It's not that one thing or the other that happened... it's the disturbing trend that is occurring that is the real source of concern. Improper use of deadly weapons, poor training, "easiest way first" mentality. Heck, you could even go back to the beatings that the VPD gave those scumbag drug dealers (not that I don't think they deserved it, but it wasn't something the cops should've been doing)... even before it.
Police brutality has been increasing, though perhaps not at the exponential rate the media portrays it... but it certainly is increasing and needs to be checked. An independant inquiry is veyr much needed.
It's a lot easier to aim at a target with a rifle than with a hand pistol. Plus they fire from much further away, not the same range that they would have had with Dziekanski. And most of the time, prison guards would fire a warning shot (I am sure they still allow that) because they're almost all inmates and don't have the same rights that ordinary citizens have. Warning shots are forbidden for police, for the simple reason that they have no idea of the trajectory of the bullet if it's fired randomly, than when it's fired at a target. The risk of killing or injuring a citizen is just too great to allow warning shots.
In Dziekanski's case they didn't use a firearm, they used a taser because of the probability of him getting out of control, so they needed to have him under control before making physical contact with him. They deployed their taser because he made a sudden movement and presented the police with what appeared to be a weapon. The sudden movement, after having been told to turn around, and with an unidentifiable object in his hand was justification enough to deploy the taser. He made a STUPID move. It wasn't enough justification to use their sidearms, but in certain situations of hightened tension it would have been, if the suspect had repeatedly been told to put down what was in his hand and didn't comply.
And I agree with Olmac about flogging a dead horse.
Panther
yeah the police told him what do but the only problem with that is that HE COULDN'T UNDERSTAND ENGLISH, like the other people there tried to tell the police which they didn't seem to want to listen to.
