Afghans say many Americans were involved in massacre in which US army accuses one

[Miss*Bijou]

Afghan parliamentary team says many Americans were involved in massacre in which army accuses one

From: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/afgha...ed-in-massacre-in-which-army-accuses-one.html



The US soldier allegedly responsible for the massacre of 16 civilians in Afghanistan has been identified as Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales.

Bales, 38, was deployed to Afghanistan in December with the 3rd Stryker Brigade, based out of Joint Base Lewis-McChord, south of Tacoma, Wash., the officials said.

Bales, a native of Ohio, has been based at Lewis-McChord his entire career. He and his family reportedly lived not too far from the base and have family roots in western Washington. Bales’ wife is said to be an executive at a Seattle-area company.

Brown said the suspect’s family will remain on base for the foreseeable future for their own protection. Bales was reportedly en route to the United States on Friday.

He has two children.

Directly after the incident, Reuters reported multiple witnesses claimed multiple soldiers were present at the scenes and carried out the crime. The acclaimed Pajhwok Afghan News (initially funded by USAID, its co-founder Farida Nekzad, won the 2008 International Women's Media Foundation Courage in Journalism Award) is reporting, Up to 20 US troops executed Panjwai massacre:

KANDAHAR CITY (PAN): A parliamentary probe team on Thursday said up to 20 American troops were involved in Sunday’s killing of 16 civilians in southern Kandahar province.

The probing delegation includes [several members of the National Assembly of Afghanistan] lawmakers Hamidzai Lali, Abdul Rahim Ayubi, Shakiba Hashimi, Syed Mohammad Akhund and Bismillah Afghanmal, all representing Kandahar province at the Wolesi Jirga and Abdul Latif Padram, a lawmaker from northern Badakhshan province, Mirbat Mangal, Khost province, Muhammad Sarwar Usmani, Farah province.

The team spent two days in the province, interviewing the bereaved families, tribal elders, survivors and collecting evidences at the site in Panjwai district.

Hamizai Lali told Pajhwok Afghan News their investigation showed there were 15 to 20 American soldiers, who executed the brutal killings.

“We closely examined the site of the incident, talked to the families who lost their beloved ones, the injured people and tribal elders,” he said.

He added the attack lasted one hour involving two groups of American soldiers in the middle of the night on Sunday.

This report should surprise no one following bulletins from Afghanistan over the last few days. Locals have insisted all along there were multiple soldiers involved, and the anger has spread since the attack. Militants launched an attack on a government delegation visiting Panjwai on Tuesday when two of President Hamid Karzai's brothers and several top security officials were visiting. Effigies of Obama were burned, one Afghan soldier was killed as well as three militants. On the same day in the city of Jalalabad 600 students took to the streets condemning the Kandahar slaughter and chanting "Death to America! Death to Obama!"

The Taliban has announced they have called off 'peace talks'. They have suspended all dialogue with Americans. Thursday President Karzai told the US it must pull back its troops from village areas and allow Afghan forces to take the lead in security. Yesterday the BBC reported that Karzai accused the US of not fully co-operating with a probe into the killings.

BBC:

A member of the delegation, Abdul Rahim Ayubi, told AP the governor was trying to explain to locals that the shooting was an isolated incident.

"But the people were just shouting and they were very angry. They didn't listen to the governor. They accused him of defending the Americans instead of defending the Kandahari people," Mr Ayubi said.

Anti-US sentiment is already high in Afghanistan after soldiers burned some copies of the Koran at a Nato base in Kabul last month, sparking deadly riots across the country.

The Taliban has renewed threats of revenge attacks, saying it would behead "sadistic" American soldiers.

It sounds like the people of Afghanistan are fed up and not backing down.

Lali asked the Afghan government, the United Nations and the international community to ensure the perpetrators were punished in Afghanistan.

He expressed his anger that the US soldier, the prime suspect in the shooting, had been flown out of Afghanistan to Kuwait.

He said the people they met had warned if the responsible troops were not punished, they would launch a movement against Afghans who had agreed to foreign troops’ presence in Afghanistan under the first Bonn conference in 2001.

The lawmaker said the Wolesi Jirga would not sit silent until the killers were prosecuted in Afghanistan. "If the international community does not play its role in punishing the perpetrators, the Wolesi Jirga would declare foreign troops as occupying forces, like the Russians," Lali warned.

Nothing about the Afghan parliamentary probe in the US media. No surprise here.


From: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/afgha...ed-in-massacre-in-which-army-accuses-one.html




Initial report from Reuters:

...

There were conflicting reports of how many shooters were involved, with U.S. officials asserting that a lone soldier was responsible, in contrast to witnesses' accounts that several U.S. soldiers were present.

...

Neighbors and relatives of the dead said they had seen a group of U.S. soldiers arrive at their village in Kandahar's Panjwayi district at about 2 a.m., enter homes and open fire.

An Afghan man who said his children were killed in the shooting spree accused soldiers of later burning the bodies.

...

Neighbors said they had awoken to crackling gunfire from American soldiers, who they described as laughing and drunk.

"They were all drunk and shooting all over the place," said neighbor Agha Lala, who visited one of the homes where killings took place.

"Their (the victims') bodies were riddled with bullets."

...

More: http://goo.gl/31yvr


Might have been more than just alcohol they were on...

 

[Ray]

On the initial news report, it was mentioned that 'a group of drunken solders' went on a rampage.
Interesting that it's only one now.

But here is an even more interesting angle on this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...not-the-reason-for-this-massacre-7575737.html

 

[ReluctantPooner]

Yeah I find it hard to believe it was just one wayward soldier, although it's not out of the realm of possibility. A group of drunk/high soldiers pissed off about a buddy getting killed or maybe just "bored" is a more likely story.

 

[Miss*Bijou]

Another Reuter's report:

Agha, 20, said American soldiers who had opened fire in the early hours entered the family home and waited in silence for what seemed an eternity. He lay on the floor, pretending to be dead.

“The Americans stayed in our house for a while. I was very scared,” he told Reuters.

“My mother was shot in her eye and her face. She was unrecognisable. My brother was shot in the head and chest and my sister was killed, too.”

Agha’s account of multiple American soldiers shooting villagers could not be immediately verified.

Yeah I find it hard to believe it was just one wayward soldier, although it's not out of the realm of possibility. A group of drunk/high soldiers pissed off about a buddy getting killed or maybe just "bored" is a more likely story.

You should have a look at the link Ray posted.

Thanks Ray, I love reading/hearing whatever Robert Fisk has to say and I hadn't read that one. He just comes right out with it and always from an angle that includes the "other" perspective our own media never reports on and which we never acknowledge even though it makes a HUGE difference.

It would make sense for the US to want to make this into one lone deranged soldier. If the uproar is bad enough over only one soldier, I can't imagine the chaos if they admitted it was a group of up to 20 soldiers that was involved.

Totally random: Why choose him and not any other soldier involved as the fall guy?

 

[uncleg]

If it had been a "group" of soldiers, there would have been a damn sight more then 16 dead...................

 

[Miss*Bijou]

If it had been a "group" of soldiers, there would have been a damn sight more then 16 dead...................

These occurred in 2 different villages, allegedly by 2 groups of US soldiers. There are many more wounded on top of the 16 that were killed. If it lasted less than an hour and some of that time was spent trying to or successfully burning some of the victim's bodies, It doesn't mean that more soldiers would have meant more deaths. They were drunk and laughing, not trying to break records of how many could be killed. If that had been the case, they would have kept going longer than an hour. Why would a lone gunman murder a few from one village, then walk to another village and kill a few more before walking himself back to his base? What would be the reasoning behind walking to a different village to kill more random people?

“We closely examined the site of the incident, talked to the families who lost their beloved ones, the injured people and tribal elders,” he said.

He added the attack lasted one hour involving two groups of American soldiers in the middle of the night on Sunday.

“The villages are one and a half kilometre from the American military base. We are convinced that one soldier cannot kill so many people in two villages within one hour at the same time, and the 16 civilians, most of them children and women, have been killed by the two groups.”

http://www.pajhwok.com/en/2012/03/15/20-us-troops-executed-panjwai-massacre-probe

..said to have broken into three homes in three different locations in Panjwai district - the villages of Alkozai and Najeeban and another settlement known locally as "Ibrahim Khan Houses".

...

Initial reports said that Sgt Bales simply walked to the villages, which were located about 500 (546 yds) from the military base in Panjwai district.

But local journalists say that the villages of Najeeban and Alkozai are about 5-7km (3-4 miles) apart. This immediately raises questions about accounts which said he completed his deadly circuit on foot.

An Afghan guard at the Nato base told the BBC that Sgt Bales left the base twice. He returned at 00:30 local time (20:00 GMT) after the first trip out and was out between 02:00 and 04:00 for the second trip.

...

Witness accounts from people in the villages paint a chilling picture with curious and sometimes contradictory features.

In one village Sgt Bales reportedly went from house to house, trying the handles of several doors and entering the homes and killing those whose doors were unlocked.

...

A woman in one of the targeted villages told the BBC she first heard helicopters at 02:00 and then gunfire. Others said helicopters and gunfire could be heard from midnight.

It is unclear if extra troops had been sent out after the attacks to apprehend the gunman.

Some villagers say that helicopters were flying overhead as the killings took place. Many locals appear to believe that they were in fact supporting the operation rather than trying to stop the gunman.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17334643

I don't know....

 

[uncleg]

These occured in 2 different villages, allegedly by 2 groups of US soldiers. There are many more wounded on top of the 16 that were killed. If it lasted less than an hour and some of that time was spent trying to or successfully burning some of the victim's bodies, It doesn't mean that more soldiers would have meant more deaths. They aren't alleged to have split up and acted individually. They were drunk and laughing, not trying to break records of how many could be killed. If that had been the case, they would have kept going longer than an hour. Why would a lone gunman murder a few from one village, then walk to another village and kill a few more before walking himself back to his base? What would be the reasoning behind walking to a different village to kill more random people?

I could give you a few reasons for doing that without PTSD, drugs or any other influence, let alone after drinking, or having a few screws loose.

 

[Miss*Bijou]

I could give you a few reasons for doing that without PTSD, drugs or any other influence, let alone after drinking, or having a few screws loose.

If he left at 2am and returned at 4am.

Just to cover the distance (5-7km) between villages by walking (1km = 12-20min) would have taken him between 60min - 140min each way. He still would have had to walk back and walk to/from the base and the first village. PTSD, loose screws, drugs or not - that leaves no time to try different houses until he found an unlocked door, repeat in another village, kill 16 people, injure many others, burn some of the bodies and then calmly walk by to the base within 2 hours.

That still doesn't explain the many reports of drunk soldiers laughing either.

I don't know what did happen but personally I'm not ruling it out.

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

If he left at 2am and returned at 4am.

Just to cover the distance (5-7km) between villages by walking (1km = 12-20min) would have taken him between 60min - 140min each way. He still would have had to walk back and walk to/from the base and the first village. PTSD, loose screws, drugs or not - that leaves no time to try different houses until he found an unlocked door, repeat in another village, kill 16 people, injure many others, burn some of the bodies and then calmly walk by to the base within 2 hours.

That still doesn't explain the many reports of drunk soldiers laughing either.

I don't know what did happen but personally I'm not ruling it out.

Whether it's one or ten soldiers doesn't really change the facts much. 16 innocent people are dead and the trust between Afghan's and American's is shattered beyond repair. The one soldier accussed of this, has children, had three tours in Iraq and was by all accounts a decent guy. So that's at least 17 lives ruined and counting. Take into account family members who have to deal with this and it's probably closer to 80-90 people who's lives will never be the same. Add the scares associated with witnesses something like this, or having the experience it in your community and we quickly get into the thousands.

All that aside it is important to find out factually what took place because we are not a society that allows murders to walk away scott free.

But one would have hoped that the Afgan government would have taken the murder of American soldiers just as seriously when they were attacked over the Quran incident. Interesting that there's no outrage around that.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Just to cover the distance (5-7km) between villages by walking (1km = 12-20min) would have taken him between 60min - 140min each way.

with respect, i will dispute this slightly. when i was the age and physical condition of that soldier, at an easy walk i could achieve 4 miles in an hour, which equals 1 mile in 15 minutes, which converts to 1 kilometre in 9.4 minutes - say rounded up to 10. at an easy trot, which trained foot soldiers can maintain all day and night with proper hydration, he should have been able to cover 1 kilometre in 5 minutes

this is not to detract from the argument that there was more than one soldier involved, but to inject an element of personal observation and experience into the discussion

cheers

 

[Ray]

The one soldier accussed of this, has children, had three tours in Iraq and was by all accounts a decent guy

One thing I do find interesting as well is that there is no shortage of 'humanizing' reporting of this particular solder, his family, his personal situation, and rationalizing for his actions.

Someone from the 'other side' will get no such narrative.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

One thing I do find interesting as well is that there is no shortage of 'humanizing' reporting of this particular solder, his family, his personal situation, and rationalizing for his actions.

Someone from the 'other side' will get no such narrative.

yep, a sure sign he's getting off scott free, probably with purple heart for the greivious mental damage suffered by him and either an honourable discharge or a speaking tour to drum up support for obama's campaign :nod:

 

[vancity_cowboy]

It will be interesting to hear the outcome of the PERB investigation. I've read on this board about Afghan housing, locked doors, distances travelled at night, and the killing potential of 1 soldier vs 20. This is all news to me. As much as I adore following links to someone else's opinion, I'm clouded by my own personal observations having spent close to a year and a half in this exact district of Kandahar Province.

so speak to us oh great guru, while thy lips are yet moist...

 

[Miss*Bijou]

Whether it's one or ten soldiers doesn't really change the facts much. 16 innocent people are dead and the trust between Afghan's and American's is shattered beyond repair. The one soldier accussed of this, has children, had three tours in Iraq and was by all accounts a decent guy. So that's at least 17 lives ruined and counting. Take into account family members who have to deal with this and it's probably closer to 80-90 people who's lives will never be the same. Add the scares associated with witnesses something like this, or having the experience it in your community and we quickly get into the thousands.

All that aside it is important to find out factually what took place because we are not a society that allows murders to walk away scott free.

But one would have hoped that the Afgan government would have taken the murder of American soldiers just as seriously when they were attacked over the Quran incident. Interesting that there's no outrage around that.

Of course it doesn't change the facts. But there is a big difference between one soldier who goes nuts and a group of up to 20 who participate. The chances of those 20 having just "gone nuts" is not as likely an explanation. When you have one guy, it's a freak incident. When you have 20, you have to start asking yourselves questions about what might be wrong.

Of course you're right that the family of those killed by the soldier will be affected by this incident but there are traumatizing event like this one (though the circumstances are different and do not involve a soldier going on a killing spree) regularly and millions of people whose lives have not been the same for years and who continue to suffer. There is an entire country of people for who the only thing different in this situation is that they saw the person doing the killing (as opposed to bombs anonymously doing the killing) and that he (they) was (were) a soldier that was part of an army claiming to be there to help. But the tragedy of 16 deaths isn't anything unusual, rare or some kind of freak accident - it's an everyday part of their lives. Their lives is all about death, suffering and loss upon loss.

I would think that the fact that most Afgans have at least one or many family members or friends who have been killed as part of collateral damage from attacks over the last few years but has never witnessed any outrage coming from us or anyone else, would probably think 2 soldiers being paid for and having made the decision to go into a battle and dying as a result deserves less outrage from them than hundreds of thousands Afghans children, women and men dying as they go about their lives while their home unfortunately becomes the battlefield.

I'm not saying one death is more tragic than another - but I am saying the losses are disproportionately from innocent Afghan civilians and soldiers do choose to go to war - children do not and they have nowhere else to go when even they can't even feel safe in their homes.

So of course it is important to find out what happened but we ARE a society that allows a great number of deaths to go unnoticed and unpunished. Just ask the Afghans and I very much doubt they would agree with your statement about our society.

One thing I do find interesting as well is that there is no shortage of 'humanizing' reporting of this particular solder, his family, his personal situation, and rationalizing for his actions.

Someone from the 'other side' will get no such narrative.

Yes, and I find the contrast between attitudes concerning this guy who murdered 16 people, mostly women and children and another soldier who is being detained not for killing or even injuring anyone but for being a whistleblower and leaking documents that made people look very bad. Fortunately Bradley Manning does have some supporters but for the most part he's treated as though he'd killed and cannibalized 100 babies. As for the guy who killed all these people, you can bet the coverage would be completely different if he'd done this in a middle class neighborhood to American children and women.

It will be interesting to hear the outcome of the PERB investigation. I've read on this board about Afghan housing, locked doors, distances travelled at night, and the killing potential of 1 soldier vs 20. This is all news to me. As much as I adore following links to someone else's opinion, I'm clouded by my own personal observations having spent close to a year and a half in this exact district of Kandahar Province.

Well why don't you share your input, instead of pouting in the corner

You're welcome not to follow links to someone else's opinion but most of those links are to news reports. Considering none of us are there now or able to talk to anyone who is, then news reports seems like a pretty sensible place to get info. You don't agree?

 

[Miss*Bijou]

I share the opinion of FunSugarDaddy in that for the Afghans that were killed, wounded, witnessed it or had a family member killed or wounded - the actual number of American Soldiers involved isn't more important than the fact that it happened at all.

Oh of course. I thought that's exactly what I was saying... Maybe I didn't express it properly.

Of course it doesn't change the facts. But there is a big difference between one soldier who goes nuts and a group of up to 20 who participate. The chances of those 20 having just "gone nuts" is not as likely an explanation. When you have one guy, it's a freak incident. When you have 20, you have to start asking yourselves questions about what might be wrong.

Of course you're right that the family of those killed by the soldier will be affected by this incident but there are traumatizing event like this one (though the circumstances are different and do not involve a soldier going on a killing spree) regularly and millions of people whose lives have not been the same for years and who continue to suffer. There is an entire country of people for who the only thing different in this situation is that they saw the person doing the killing (as opposed to bombs anonymously doing the killing) and that he (they) was (were) a soldier that was part of an army claiming to be there to help. But the tragedy of 16 deaths isn't anything unusual, rare or some kind of freak accident - it's an everyday part of their lives. Their lives is all about death, suffering and loss upon loss.

Of course it doesn't make a difference to them however it makes a significant difference to us; in how we decide to explain it or rationalize it. Blaming it on one individual who just went nuts lets everyone else off the hook. Admitting it was something very different makes it harder to ignore a much bigger problem. I say harder and not impossible because there have been numerous incidents already making clear that there is very much a problem to be addressed yet it still seems to go unacknowledged with repeated attempts to condemn the acts as a deranged individual, a rotten apple, an isolated, freak tragedy etc.

But the bigger problem is that there is, at the very core, an absolute disregard for the hundreds of thousands of deaths of Afghans that are shrugged off as regrettable but unavoidable collateral damage and sadly necessary. How do you condemn an individual massacre when countless similar massacres and deaths are seen as an acceptable though not desirable consequence of war - but since it's not "us" being killed, it's really not that remarkable and doesn't really provoke much of a reaction? How can we rationalize the difference in how there can be this outrage resulting from this while not any outrage in reaction to the hundreds of similar scenes? Is it less of a massacre when it's cause by someone dropping bombs than it is when it's someone facing their victim and pulling the trigger for every victim? Why do we treat it that way and what makes us believe we're right to?

I'm saying our moral compass is totally messed up. And we should be asking ourselves some serious questions, not continuing to absolve ourselves of any responsibility because it was "just a deranged individual".

 

[Miss*Bijou]

Bijou, you are continuing to lose me. Canadians are not Americans. Let me say this again - Canadians are not Americans.

When there was a suggestion that some Canadians had "integrated too closely with Americans", they were brought home. When a Canadian general had a firearms accident, he was charged and brought home. In neither incident did the Canadians involved kill an Afghan civilian.

With the Americans, dropping a 500 pound bomb on their allies is "suck it up Canada - accidents happen", blow up a Wedding Party it is "in the 'fog of war' accidents happen".

So, Bijou - when you rant about what is happening in Afghanistan - Remember, Canadians are not Americans.

When the Canadians were where the American Soldier(s) shot 9 children and 3 women in their sleep - Canadians built schools. They didn't kill anyone that wasn't awake and shooting at them, because - - - Canadians are not Americans.

I agree with you, Al. Mostly. Yes, this specific example involves Americans and not Canadians, I agree. But if you take that example and look at the big picture, we also share some of the blame for the mentality that leads to and allows this kind of disregard to a point where it's out of hand. If the "we" includes the so-called "west", Canadians are very much guilty of that it's-just-"them"attitude and overall apathy and that chauvinistic belief that "our" lives, especially civilians are worth a lot more than "theirs". Also, did you forget the torture scandal? That was us so it isn't completely foreign. I'm not talking just about the military, or just about the government - I'm talking about both of these and part of the general public. The way we talk, the language and attitudes that become acceptable. You don't see our government taking a stand or denouncing and certainly not distancing itself from Americans - quite the opposite. We may not be there but that's the direction we are heading. Our PM and his government are extremely and increasingly open about its xenophobic mentality.


Stephen Harper idolizes the US and very openly proclaims Canada to be Israel's "best friend" in the world and offers "our" unconditional support - despite an incredibly long list of human rights crimes, illegal occupation, guilt of multiple crimes under international law and the same record as the US of indiscriminate murders of civilians and targeted killings (extra judicial assassinations). Stephen Harper's government has very much shown they hold a "us vs them" view and taken on the simplistic outlook that denounces "the other" as terrorist while engaging in far more destructive assaults themselves. (You just have to read the Foreign minister, John Baird's, depressingly moronic view of the conflicts between Israel and it's neighbors: The frankly embarrassing "white hat" vs "black hat" story ***see quote at bottom)


While he might have toned down his comments by the time that lying, war mongering, criminal Netanyahu got here, he's hasn't been shy about his disdain for the Palestinians and has spoken harsh words that bordered war mongering about Iran, despite US intelligence position that Iran does not have nuclear power capabilities. We may not be direct participants but if Harper has his way, which he's working on, we won't even have our passive complicity to hide behind and our hands will be just as bloody. Not to mention that we all know that had Harper been in power, we would have gone to Iraq too.

I'm very sorry but not being guilty of personally committing crimes while supporting others who do, while not so much as voicing any objections to acts of other countries makes us complicit and definitely places some of the blame on our shoulders and our conscience. More than ever, this government is complicit in the deeds of others, of pushing policies that reek of xenophobia, imperialism and making public comments that sound less and less Canadian and more and more American (or Israeli, for that matter) and displays some kind of moral superiority and paternalistic, arrogance.

ie "We" (the all-knowing, righteous "West") have to go in and educate "them" (the primitive, undemocratic, violent, inferior, incompetent "other") because they need our help. We are going to "help" them but it will unfortunately result in unfortunate civilian casualties. We won't openly say it, of course, but it's obvious that foreign civilian lives aren't really much of a concern for us - in fact, let's not even bother counting them - What for?


So that's why I chose to use "we" and not "they". Because neither are quite fully accurate but "they" implies we don't have any guilt at all, which I don't think is a wise thing to allow ourselves to believe. Anyway, I don't even know if I'm explaining it clearly but essentially I don't think we're really disagreeing on the specific situation, I'm just also looking at a bigger picture, beyond this particular latest incident and trying to point out that this attitude doesn't just appear out of nowhere but that there's a whole mentality that leads to it. And that we have to look at the origin and question the direction we're going, the language and motivations of our leaders and we seriously have to reflect on our attitudes towards "the others" because it gets very dangerous to accept Harper's view of ourselves, our role, our importance and of the world...if that makes sense. lol

 

[uncleg]

Oh of course. I thought that's exactly what I was saying... Maybe I didn't express it properly.





Of course it doesn't make a difference to them however it makes a significant difference to us; in how we decide to explain it or rationalize it. Blaming it on one individual who just went nuts lets everyone else off the hook. Admitting it was something very different makes it harder to ignore a much bigger problem. I say harder and not impossible because there have been numerous incidents already making clear that there is very much a problem to be addressed yet it still seems to go unacknowledged with repeated attempts to condemn the acts as a deranged individual, a rotten apple, an isolated, freak tragedy etc.

But the bigger problem is that there is, at the very core, an absolute disregard for the hundreds of thousands of deaths of Afghans that are shrugged off as regrettable but unavoidable collateral damage and sadly necessary. How do you condemn an individual massacre when countless similar massacres and deaths are seen as an acceptable though not desirable consequence of war - but since it's not "us" being killed, it's really not that remarkable and doesn't really provoke much of a reaction? How can we rationalize the difference in how there can be this outrage resulting from this while not any outrage in reaction to the hundreds of similar scenes? Is it less of a massacre when it's cause by someone dropping bombs than it is when it's someone facing their victim and pulling the trigger for every victim? Why do we treat it that way and what makes us believe we're right to?

I'm saying our moral compass is totally messed up. And we should be asking ourselves some serious questions, not continuing to absolve ourselves of any responsibility because it was "just a deranged individual".

.............and you get hundreds of thousands of deaths of Afghans from......................? Best I can find is 37,000 or so civilian and insurgent, direct and indirect.

 

[kenchorney]

.............and you get hundreds of thousands of deaths of Afghans from......................? Best I can find is 37,000 or so civilian and insurgent, direct and indirect.

Come on G, don't let facts get in the way of a good old soapbox rant.

 

[Miss*Bijou]

Come on G, don't let facts get in the way of a good old soapbox rant.

WOW you really have a lot to contribute, don't you?

We can't all just stand around staring at our navels, can we?

 

[kenchorney]

WOW you really have a lot to contribute, don't you?

We can't all just stand around staring at our navels, can we?

LOL Sorry I don't have all day for google searches and the time to post pointless videos. Fact is G caught you in a big over exaggeration and called you on it. Guess your not quite as smart as you think you are.

I'll go back to my hockey game now and let you have the last 5000 words. LOL