A message from uncle sam!
- Thread starter eljudo
- Start date
Good one Eljudo. But from the current situation in Iran I think President Bush and all Americans have learned a very valuable lesson from Iraq.
You have not seen any threats of invasion over the alleged nuclear program Iran has going.
In my opinion we (we being the United States) need to sit back and watch what the rest of the world does. Iran has a stated goal of eliminating Israel. With nukes and the ability to deliver them, Iran could accomplish their goal in very short order.
So now is the time to prove your theories of how to deal with the likes of Iran. Continue passing your UN resolutions. Continue claiming that it is all Bush's fault that Iran is developing nukes.
Eljudo, the clock is now ticking. Israel will attack Iran if Iran is left unchecked.
So now is the time to set up, stop your complaining and criticizing and do something.
Whatcha gonna do????????
You have not seen any threats of invasion over the alleged nuclear program Iran has going.
In my opinion we (we being the United States) need to sit back and watch what the rest of the world does. Iran has a stated goal of eliminating Israel. With nukes and the ability to deliver them, Iran could accomplish their goal in very short order.
So now is the time to prove your theories of how to deal with the likes of Iran. Continue passing your UN resolutions. Continue claiming that it is all Bush's fault that Iran is developing nukes.
Eljudo, the clock is now ticking. Israel will attack Iran if Iran is left unchecked.
So now is the time to set up, stop your complaining and criticizing and do something.
Whatcha gonna do????????
luckydog71 said:
Well to being with,
All my theories about the invasion in iraq for the wrong reasons has come true. Regarding Iran, I have never said anything about not invading them or anything. I am not for or against an invasion with iran.
Once thing, you may wanna hammer into your gray matter is that Israel is the only nation with KNOWN WMDS in the area.
Secondly,
being disarmed to the core, like iraq, doesnt seem to help anthing.. It only seems to faciliate the invasion of a sovereign nation by foreign forces. Thousands of lives later, iraq is worse off today than ever before. now go play with some bones.
Thirdly,
By invading a sovereign nation, without the UN consent, the US showed the world that they better be armed to the teeth or face a possible US aggression for and by US interests in the area.
Eljudo, I read your response twice.
I do understand what you would not do. I understand your criticism of Bush who acted incorrectly in your view.
I understand you have a problem with Israel having nukes.
But I do not understand what you would do!!!!!
I guess the best you can hope for is Bush does something stupid like invade Iran with the support of Britain and Israel. Then you and liberal Americans would continue with their tirade. Just for once I would like to see a liberal with an idea. Is that an oxymoron?
From reports it seems China and Russia are supplying Iran, so they will not support any UN resolutions. France will revert to your stance Eljudo quote "I am not for or against an invasion with Iran"
Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
I do understand what you would not do. I understand your criticism of Bush who acted incorrectly in your view.
I understand you have a problem with Israel having nukes.
But I do not understand what you would do!!!!!
I guess the best you can hope for is Bush does something stupid like invade Iran with the support of Britain and Israel. Then you and liberal Americans would continue with their tirade. Just for once I would like to see a liberal with an idea. Is that an oxymoron?
From reports it seems China and Russia are supplying Iran, so they will not support any UN resolutions. France will revert to your stance Eljudo quote "I am not for or against an invasion with Iran"
Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
luckydog71 said:
The answer is quite complicated and honestly I am far too lazy to type it up. As I have mentioned numerous times before, I am not willing to spoon feed my ideas to anyone , just to force them to have a similar view of the international arena/world/politics.
The answer that you seek is extremelly long, but to summarize some key points... and if you do really care to find out or to understand my stance... feel free to do some reading on your part. Investigate it.
The whole mess over in the middle east is based on:
1. Religion
2. Racist Doctrima
3. International interest to control the crude oil industry/production/ financial interest
4. Europe's Guilt of the masacre of the Jews during WW2.
The party paying for all the broken dishes, are the palestinians.
Religion and politics play the same wave form. Both lead the masses to the slaughterhouse. Those that cannot think for themselves are lead the same way a shepherd leads his sheeps. If you want peace on the middle east, then invade israel. break the land, hand over what belongs to the palestinians, give some land to Israel. And of course.... take the WMDS from everyone else.. not just one country or countries. Let the people governm themselves without international influence. Let them decide whats good for them. After all, is their country, their culture.
What is the cause of hatred ? Thats the root of the issue that needs to be studied... not with bombs, invasion, depleted uranium shells, Stealth fighters or smart bombs. Violence only cultivates more hatred.. no one likes to be invated and told what to do .. and how to do it... Hitler tapped on this hatred to come to power, and lead the third reich.
Of course, you luckydog, probably believe that the Quran tells them to decapitate the infidels.. that they hate your way of life, your old glory, or american flag. Its an easy explanation to current world instability. The goverment feeds from the ignorance of the masses, the unwilliness to understand current world issues.. in order to assasinate innocents and wage war around the world.. mostly based on financial interest in the area... after all.. if big brother does all the thinking for you.. why bother?
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E…..I am just an ordinary and typical American. I look at the world through the window provided to me by the popular media. I choose to watch FOX and I also switch frequently to MSNBC and CNBC. I never watch CNN (I have removed them from my favorites so they do not even come up while I surf). The old guard CBS/NBC/ABC is just that yesterday’s news.
So that gives you a perspective of my interest in researching details. Criticize me if you wish, but I have no interest in digging deeply into the issue.
So here is my view:
The Middle East has been a breeding ground for hatred against the US.
This did not start with Bush; this has been a hatred that has spanned many presidencies and prior to the tilt of congress to the right.
So why do they hate us? I can honestly say, I have no fucking idea.
Because US supports Israel? If that is it what do they propose we do with the Israel’s?
Because we are after their oil? Don’t think so. If they really wanted to harm the US, just turn off the tap.
Because we are the aggressors? When Iraq invaded Kuwait we only defended our ally. We stopped short of invading Iraq. Shortly after they attacked the WTC form the first time.
I am continually puzzled by the constant barrage of “it is all Bush’s fault”. Like this problem occurred in January 2001 when Bush took office. Sorry man, don’t buy it.
Now let me give you a little insight into why I think the way I do.
The 2 previous presidents (Bush 1 / Clinton) were very ineffective. They made decisions based on polls and for the most part their decisions were wrong. I believe Bush 1 and Clinton were enablers for 9/11. This huge foreign affairs mess was past to Bush 2 to clean up and they hit him hard when he was in office for only 8 months.
The mis-calculation on their part was Bush 2 was no Bush 1 or Clinton. He decided unilaterally that he needed to implement a plan. He has been consistent, in spite of public opinion. You can criticize him if you wish, but you can not deny he is a man of his word and he follows his convections. I wish more people were like him. You can disagree with him, but he is predictable.
Now let me characterize your position.
This is a very complex situation. Far beyond my ability to comprehend. It would take hours maybe days of research to even get to a point that I would have an opinion.
Eljudo, that is a cop out. I am not stupid. I may be lazy. I may rely on bad sources for the information I use to make decisions.
Here is your problem…. I consider myself more knowledgeable than 75% of those who will vote in 2007 (ahahahha it is a joke, I know it is 2008). I along with 120 million or so citizens of the USA will decide who will be the commander in Chief of the US military. So if the best you can do to characterize your position is it is too complicated for me to understand, then please do not be surprised by the person who is victorious in the 08 presidential race.
This post is way too long. Sorry
So that gives you a perspective of my interest in researching details. Criticize me if you wish, but I have no interest in digging deeply into the issue.
So here is my view:
The Middle East has been a breeding ground for hatred against the US.
This did not start with Bush; this has been a hatred that has spanned many presidencies and prior to the tilt of congress to the right.
So why do they hate us? I can honestly say, I have no fucking idea.
Because US supports Israel? If that is it what do they propose we do with the Israel’s?
Because we are after their oil? Don’t think so. If they really wanted to harm the US, just turn off the tap.
Because we are the aggressors? When Iraq invaded Kuwait we only defended our ally. We stopped short of invading Iraq. Shortly after they attacked the WTC form the first time.
I am continually puzzled by the constant barrage of “it is all Bush’s fault”. Like this problem occurred in January 2001 when Bush took office. Sorry man, don’t buy it.
Now let me give you a little insight into why I think the way I do.
The 2 previous presidents (Bush 1 / Clinton) were very ineffective. They made decisions based on polls and for the most part their decisions were wrong. I believe Bush 1 and Clinton were enablers for 9/11. This huge foreign affairs mess was past to Bush 2 to clean up and they hit him hard when he was in office for only 8 months.
The mis-calculation on their part was Bush 2 was no Bush 1 or Clinton. He decided unilaterally that he needed to implement a plan. He has been consistent, in spite of public opinion. You can criticize him if you wish, but you can not deny he is a man of his word and he follows his convections. I wish more people were like him. You can disagree with him, but he is predictable.
Now let me characterize your position.
This is a very complex situation. Far beyond my ability to comprehend. It would take hours maybe days of research to even get to a point that I would have an opinion.
Eljudo, that is a cop out. I am not stupid. I may be lazy. I may rely on bad sources for the information I use to make decisions.
Here is your problem…. I consider myself more knowledgeable than 75% of those who will vote in 2007 (ahahahha it is a joke, I know it is 2008). I along with 120 million or so citizens of the USA will decide who will be the commander in Chief of the US military. So if the best you can do to characterize your position is it is too complicated for me to understand, then please do not be surprised by the person who is victorious in the 08 presidential race.
This post is way too long. Sorry
just so you know, I have read your reply.
At this point, I have nothing else to add to what has already been said earlier.
so for now, i will just go to the bathroom and release some cruel, foul logs .. i may have more to tell later.
At this point, I have nothing else to add to what has already been said earlier.
so for now, i will just go to the bathroom and release some cruel, foul logs .. i may have more to tell later.
Perhaps you will tell us which bathroom you are heading to so we can avoid the aftermath. Talk about WMDs!!
Stew
Stew
Thanks for reading my response.eljudo said:just so you know, I have read your reply.
At this point, I have nothing else to add to what has already been said earlier.
so for now, i will just go to the bathroom and release some cruel, foul logs .. i may have more to tell later.
A huge dump may be just what we all need to clear the air. CLEAR THE AIR!!! DID I SAY THAT???
luckydog71 said:
Perhaps because of the things done in America's name by large multinational corporations based out of the USA who owe no allegiance to any but their bottom line. In America citizens are protected by a strong government as they are in most of the "western world". In the the third world which includes most of the middle east, Multinationals have raped and pillaged without restraint (figuratively speaking). Multinationals based in other western nations have done the same, there are just less of them. The end result for most citizens of the third world is a bad experience with America. This is easily used by those who wish to obtain power by any means.
So why do these same people all want to come to America? you ask. Well, when your there, you are beyond the reach of the multinationals which really control most of the world and more of America than you might think.
When it comes to freedom and democracy, all America has done lately is talk the talk!
Richoshadows, that is one of the best explanations I have heard. It certainly provides a possible explanation to a number of holes left by other theories that typically revolve around religion or politics.rickoshadows said:
RS – you have given me something to think about. Thanks LD
why not wade in?
OK - 2 cents. I agree with the shadow man about the MN's....to a point. Unfortunately, the ME has been rife with hatred of one sort for all of recent and not so recent history....crusades, Masada, pick a point in time and someone was killing someone over there.
So what to do? Iran will try and develop nukes and I doubt Israel will let them do this. All those F15 E's have to be used for something.
I truly think the U.S. is going to sit this one out. They were wrong about WMDs in Iraq - other than maybe gas weapons. Even though they are correct about Iran, they don't have the troops to pull it off or the will to get into another war. So, the UN will piss and moan and Iran will try for nukes. The Russians have already said they will abstain and not block any motions in the security council.
The pacifists in Germany and France are so smart, let them figure this one out.....on a good note, I don't think the French have ever surrendered to Iran....so, when they do, it will be something new!
OK - 2 cents. I agree with the shadow man about the MN's....to a point. Unfortunately, the ME has been rife with hatred of one sort for all of recent and not so recent history....crusades, Masada, pick a point in time and someone was killing someone over there.
So what to do? Iran will try and develop nukes and I doubt Israel will let them do this. All those F15 E's have to be used for something.
I truly think the U.S. is going to sit this one out. They were wrong about WMDs in Iraq - other than maybe gas weapons. Even though they are correct about Iran, they don't have the troops to pull it off or the will to get into another war. So, the UN will piss and moan and Iran will try for nukes. The Russians have already said they will abstain and not block any motions in the security council.
The pacifists in Germany and France are so smart, let them figure this one out.....on a good note, I don't think the French have ever surrendered to Iran....so, when they do, it will be something new!
Ilovethemall said:OK - 2 cents. I agree with the shadow man about the MN's....to a point. Unfortunately, the ME has been rife with hatred of one sort for all of recent and not so recent history....crusades, Masada, pick a point in time and someone was killing someone over there.
So what to do? Iran will try and develop nukes and I doubt Israel will let them do this. All those F15 E's have to be used for something.
I truly think the U.S. is going to sit this one out. They were wrong about WMDs in Iraq - other than maybe gas weapons. Even though they are correct about Iran, they don't have the troops to pull it off or the will to get into another war. So, the UN will piss and moan and Iran will try for nukes. The Russians have already said they will abstain and not block any motions in the security council.
The pacifists in Germany and France are so smart, let them figure this one out.....on a good note, I don't think the French have ever surrendered to Iran....so, when they do, it will be something new!
To being with, the dump i took yesterday, after careful examinations.. so throughful which prob would make a scientist blush.. I saw a several undigested beans stuck onto the side of the log. That brought me an Eureka moment.
What was said above got some good points. The US is already fighting too many wars at once. The US will not be able to securely hold IRAQ and attack IRAN at once. that would suicidal for the troops. yes, all hell will break loose.
I still remenber when iraq was first invaded. The news sold the idea to the americans that they would be welcome as liberators with open arms etc.. they never thought that the welcoming wagon would include suicide bombers, and the such.
If you think iraq is difficult to occupy wait until " IF " the invasion of iran begins.
Highly doubt the iranians will sit by and let the israelis bomb the shit of out them. Thats prob the main reason in them seeking the nukes.
The lesson that was tought in Iraq to the rest of the world, including North korea and Iran.. is.
The US is awesome at SHOCK and AWE. TOP gun at blowing shit up, at the same time with all the latest tech such as drones, smart bombs, etc.
The US can move its armada rapidly around the globe.
The US can walk over the UN , kick the UN ambassord ass, and make everyone else lick the US president ass while joining the coaliation of the unwilling.
The US can kick your ass, very fast.. if you are a third world country.
the above was the good points.... the bad points against the US... which has been shown around the world.
the us will disarm you first , via sanctions... such in IRAQ.. so it can come in , kick your ass, and take away your promise land....with as few casualities as possible.
even with the best, most advanced technology minded army in the world.. it has a hard time fighting guerilla warfare such as sucide bombers or less technical advanced , non formal warfare methods of fighting such as AL Queda. it simply gets BOGGED DOWN.. like a sand pit..
The US is not willing to fight a prolonged war.. The same thing that happened at vietnam is re occurring in iraq.. the same shit if not worse will happen in IRAN.
I am confused Eljudo.
Are you saying Iran should be allowed to continue with their nuclear program?
I assume not. So who will stop them and how?
Are you saying Iran should be allowed to continue with their nuclear program?
I assume not. So who will stop them and how?
At this rate no one. Iran is too large and too fanatical to even risk it. The result would be an embarrising defeat for any coalition force. The Russians learned that hard lesson in Afghanistan and we will be no different. You cannot win a war against a determined and ruthless advasary on his own ground. You guys have learned nothing from Vietnam and now Iraq. Here's a saying "Those who forget the past are condemed to repeat it." I suggest that we ought to learn and not repeat past errors.
luckydog71 said:
In a perfect world scenario, neither Israel nor Iran, or any other country should own such a weapon. However, the best we can hope in the " real world"
1. remove the real WMDs from Israel or any other middle eastern state.
2. a military balance in the region needs to take effect.
3. the palestinian question should be resolved once and for all.
4. US troops out of iraq, saudi arabia, kuwait.
5. let them deal with their issues.
The root of the issue should be selected, and destroyed. Thats the only way you are going to kill the thorn in the middle east.
With the invasion of IRAQ, the US made the world a lot worse. It has tought the lesson of not believing in the UN, the US , or any other international watchdog agency. The US government wiped its ass with the UN before invading IRAQ. If there was any country with any sign of instability in the middle east, it should have been IRAN... not IRAQ. As many readers are aware, Saddam's nuclear reactors were destroyed by the Israelis during an air strike.. Saddam was never crazy enough to start playing with Wmds after that.... worse off, not after the first gulf war.
Could there be a way to persuade IRAN not to build Wmds? thats a good question, I am afraid I am not able to answer.
Can the UN stop IRAN? If the UN had the backbone, and the power to stop any nation from invading a soverign country, perphaps it could persuade IRAN not to build any WMDS... however, as the iraq fiasco has proven... no one can stop the US when it feels its time to spark up the economy by kicking some serious ass via shock and awe.
if you were IRAN right now.. and you were being told promises after promises, to disarm, and become a gentle dove.... would you do it? would you disarm, and follow UN resolutions....right after what has been done to IRAQ? I doubt it.
