79 teen prostitutes taken off the streets in nationwide crackdown, FBI says

lenny

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These days, it's not uncommon for an urban high school in a metropolitan area to have girls prostituting. They spend it on shit like LV handbags.

Nor is it uncommon for undergrad girls in colleges to have sugar daddies. It's not seen as necessarily shameful, but an alternate way to afford tuition and some of the finer things in life, like LV handbags.
If that is correct, it seems the West is finally catching up to where Asia, certainly Thailand, was decades ago.


Well apparently so are 16 year old girls with vices, but its fear of criminality that prevents anyone from saying that with any seriousness. We all know why so many guys raise their eyebrows on this headline don't we?
Criminality? Age of consent is 16, up from the 14 of a few years ago. In Spain 13, in many US states 16. In Central America as low as 15. In Canada a 18 YO may do it with a 14 year old. In Thailand 15 is ify, and its 18 with sex workers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Asia#Thailand
 

jesuschrist

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If that is correct, it seems the West is finally catching up to where Asia, certainly Thailand, was decades ago.
The West is not catching up with Asia, that is completely untrue. For one, the culture of Thailand, especially with regard to sex, is extremely different from the rest of Asia. In Asia, you do not have school kids getting into prostitution, except Thailand. In Asia, you do not have college age girls posting on websites advertising themselves as sugar-babies, except Thailand. Asia, except Thailand, is remarkably conservative and any girl caught doing any of those things is severely ostracized and rejected, even by their own families. If they were to do it, it would have to be driven completely underground and very deeply underground at that. What you said is untrue.



Criminality? Age of consent is 16, up from the 14 of a few years ago. In Spain 13, in many US states 16. In Central America as low as 15. In Canada a 18 YO may do it with a 14 year old. In Thailand 15 is ify, and its 18 with sex workers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Asia#Thailand
I don't see why you bring this up at all. I suppose you're saying that if you wanted to have sex with a 13 year old, you ought to visit Spain. I think for a normal man, taking a trip to a foreign country just to seek sex with a young person is something they wouldn't dare do. My point about criminality is only that we were talking about the United States (and I presumed North America), and its culture of how young girls end up actively participating in prostitution. I wasn't talking about Asia and I wasn't talking about Spain, but I guess you were talking about who and where you can get sex with very young females, and get away with it. If that was your intent, I wouldn't bring it up because it's simply not wise to do so.
 

lenny

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May 20, 2004
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I don't see why you bring this up at all [...]My point about criminality is only that we were talking about the United States (and I presumed North America), and its culture of how young girls end up actively participating in prostitution.

My point about criminality is in response to your comment on it re the age of 16. Namely that at 16 in Canada and many US states it is not a crime to bang a 16 year old. AFAIK it is the same if the teen is a sex worker. The other countries figures were just thrown in as an interesting aside.

Re your comment on Asian culture, i'll see what i can dig up.
 

lenny

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May 20, 2004
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The West is not catching up with Asia, that is completely untrue. For one, the culture of Thailand, especially with regard to sex, is extremely different from the rest of Asia. In Asia, you do not have school kids getting into prostitution, except Thailand. In Asia, you do not have college age girls posting on websites advertising themselves as sugar-babies, except Thailand. Asia, except Thailand, is remarkably conservative and any girl caught doing any of those things is severely ostracized and rejected, even by their own families. If they were to do it, it would have to be driven completely underground and very deeply underground at that. What you said is untrue.
I think some of the following quotes, though dated pre 2000, relate to the topic at hand.

From a book I am currently reading, "Sex Slaves: the trafficking of women in Asia" by Louise Brown:

"If prostitution was simply about poverty we could have expected a contraction of the sex industry in countries with fast-developing economies. But during the 1980's and 1990's the sex industry in countries like Thailand, the Phillipines, Malaysia and Indonesia expanded as the standard of living of large sections of the population improved" (page 30).

"In Thailand daughters are cast into the role of caretakers of the family. As in the rest of South-East Asia girls are expected to pay back their "breast milk money". In areas where prostitution of girls is well established, families may expect pretty daughters to enter prostitution. In areas of Taiwan their is a tolerant attitude to women supporting their parents through prostitution. Exactly the same holds true for prostitute-recruiting grounds in Napal, Indonesia, the Phillipines, Thailand, India and southern China" (p.34).

"A woman is thought to have been born as a woman because of bad karma. In order to overcome this disadvantage a woman has to make more religious merit than men. According to the Theraveda Buddhist tradition of Thailand and Burma, a son may make merit by becoming a monk for a few months. But for a daughter there is no similar option. Instead she is encouraged to make merit by caring for her parents. If she does this well, and earns money for her family, she can, conceivably, be reborn as a man in her next life. This desire to help their families has been identified as a powerful factor pushing young women into prostitution in Thailand" (p.40).

"In provinces of northern Thailand like Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai, the whole community accepts sex work. And this includes officials and religious organizations because, ultimately, they all benefit financially from the trade (p.53).

"A crucial turning point comes when the daughters of former prostitutes are sent to the city for sex work. It takes a generation. Perhaps two. And then prostitution becomes a profession and a standard career 'choice' for girls from poor communities who almost invariably have limited education and minimal skills. This process has only occurred in pockets throughout Asia but the phenomenon is spreading and a greater and greater number of girls are being reared for prostitution" (p. 53-54).

"A (Thai) study in 1990 (found) 60% of families sending daughters to the brothels were not forced to do so because of acute poverty. Instead they were motivated by the desire to own consumer goods like televisions and videos. All the young ethnic Thai girls who 'Go South' are not dragged screaming to the brothels. Only rarely are they held in captivity" (p. 54-55).

"Parents are not solely to blame. The perpetrators of (prostitution) in places like Thailand are not just individuals but are entire social, political, (sexual) and economic systems" (p. 55).

"Thailand has a well-deserved reputation as the world's brothel. It has an enormous domestic market in which the majority of Thai men are enthusiastic consumers" (p. 81).

"Thai male sexual culture actively promotes male promiscuity and the purchase of sex" (p. 132).
 

jesuschrist

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I think some of the following quotes, though dated pre 2000, relate to the topic at hand.

From a book I am currently reading, "Sex Slaves: the trafficking of women in Asia" by Louise Brown:

"If prostitution was simply about poverty we could have expected a contraction of the sex industry in countries with fast-developing economies. But during the 1980's and 1990's the sex industry in countries like Thailand, the Phillipines, Malaysia and Indonesia expanded as the standard of living of large sections of the population improved" (page 30).

"In Thailand daughters are cast into the role of caretakers of the family. As in the rest of South-East Asia girls are expected to pay back their "breast milk money". In areas where prostitution of girls is well established, families may expect pretty daughters to enter prostitution. In areas of Taiwan their is a tolerant attitude to women supporting their parents through prostitution. Exactly the same holds true for prostitute-recruiting grounds in Napal, Indonesia, the Phillipines, Thailand, India and southern China" (p.34).

"A woman is thought to have been born as a woman because of bad karma. In order to overcome this disadvantage a woman has to make more religious merit than men. According to the Theraveda Buddhist tradition of Thailand and Burma, a son may make merit by becoming a monk for a few months. But for a daughter there is no similar option. Instead she is encouraged to make merit by caring for her parents. If she does this well, and earns money for her family, she can, conceivably, be reborn as a man in her next life. This desire to help their families has been identified as a powerful factor pushing young women into prostitution in Thailand" (p.40).

"In provinces of northern Thailand like Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai, the whole community accepts sex work. And this includes officials and religious organizations because, ultimately, they all benefit financially from the trade (p.53).

"A crucial turning point comes when the daughters of former prostitutes are sent to the city for sex work. It takes a generation. Perhaps two. And then prostitution becomes a profession and a standard career 'choice' for girls from poor communities who almost invariably have limited education and minimal skills. This process has only occurred in pockets throughout Asia but the phenomenon is spreading and a greater and greater number of girls are being reared for prostitution" (p. 53-54).

"A (Thai) study in 1990 (found) 60% of families sending daughters to the brothels were not forced to do so because of acute poverty. Instead they were motivated by the desire to own consumer goods like televisions and videos. All the young ethnic Thai girls who 'Go South' are not dragged screaming to the brothels. Only rarely are they held in captivity" (p. 54-55).

"Parents are not solely to blame. The perpetrators of (prostitution) in places like Thailand are not just individuals but are entire social, political, (sexual) and economic systems" (p. 55).

"Thailand has a well-deserved reputation as the world's brothel. It has an enormous domestic market in which the majority of Thai men are enthusiastic consumers" (p. 81).

"Thai male sexual culture actively promotes male promiscuity and the purchase of sex" (p. 132).
Well that just echoes what I said: it's true for Thailand. It's not true for the rest of Asia, and you painted the rest of Asia like it was Thailand. Thailand is the exception when it comes to sex culture in Asia. Even places like the Philippines and Malaysia and Indonesia, as the article mentions, daughters are not sent to go work as prostitutes to support their families, unlike Thailand. Phillipines is heavily Catholic, and Malaysia and Indonesia are heavily Muslim - young girls working as prostitutes is not encouraged or even tolerated. As for China, S.Korea, Vietnam, Japan, etc., the attitudes towards sex is similar. Only Thailand stands apart. So what you said is NOT true, the West is not catching up with Asia - because Asia was never there, only Thailand is out there. And the West is not even catching up to what is happening in Thailand, not even remotely close.

I don't know why you like to distort the truth so much when it comes to these things.
 

Tugela

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Well that just echoes what I said: it's true for Thailand. It's not true for the rest of Asia, and you painted the rest of Asia like it was Thailand. Thailand is the exception when it comes to sex culture in Asia. Even places like the Philippines and Malaysia and Indonesia, as the article mentions, daughters are not sent to go work as prostitutes to support their families, unlike Thailand. Phillipines is heavily Catholic, and Malaysia and Indonesia are heavily Muslim - young girls working as prostitutes is not encouraged or even tolerated. As for China, S.Korea, Vietnam, Japan, etc., the attitudes towards sex is similar. Only Thailand stands apart. So what you said is NOT true, the West is not catching up with Asia - because Asia was never there, only Thailand is out there. And the West is not even catching up to what is happening in Thailand, not even remotely close.

I don't know why you like to distort the truth so much when it comes to these things.
Officially and by custom it isnt tolerated, but behind closed doors its rampant.

That is usually that case in poorly developed countries, because they don't have the same concept of childhood that developed countries have.
 

Tugela

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OMG people are having SEX... Say this isn't so. Must be time for a crackdown. I have no problem with LE targeting underage solicitation and pimps who are making a living off them.

But don't make it seem like it's some major battle that they need to win! If only they could put as much emphasis on Teen age violence, teen age drug dealing and teen aged gangs..

I just hope this doesn't paint the whole industry with the same brush... You know the one.. it's been dipped and discussed many times over and over.
The secret agenda IS the industry, children are just the weapon they are using.

The truth is that most of the kids who do get involved are from highly dysfunctional backgrounds and are on track for a life in the shadows anyway. Prostitution is just one of many dubious things they have been and will be involved with. There is a lot of emphasis on getting them off the streets and rescueing them, but allmost nothing is said about doing something before they get there or dealing with them afterwards. What do people think happens to these kids after they have been "rescued"? where do people think they come from? That is what really annoys me the most about these media campaigns.
 

lenny

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Well that just echoes what I said: it's true for Thailand. It's not true for the rest of Asia, and you painted the rest of Asia like it was Thailand. Thailand is the exception when it comes to sex culture in Asia. Even places like the Philippines and Malaysia and Indonesia, as the article mentions, daughters are not sent to go work as prostitutes to support their families, unlike Thailand. Phillipines is heavily Catholic, and Malaysia and Indonesia are heavily Muslim - young girls working as prostitutes is not encouraged or even tolerated. As for China, S.Korea, Vietnam, Japan, etc., the attitudes towards sex is similar. Only Thailand stands apart. So what you said is NOT true, the West is not catching up with Asia - because Asia was never there, only Thailand is out there. And the West is not even catching up to what is happening in Thailand, not even remotely close.

I don't know why you like to distort the truth so much when it comes to these things.
Since Thailand is part of Asia, my original statement about Asia is true, regardless
of what occurs in the rest of Asia. Since for something to occur in Asia it does
not need to occur in every country, province or city of Asia.

As for the "article", it was a book i quoted from, as stated, and i can't for the life
of me figure out how you think it is saying the opposite of what it says.

I'd suggest you reread it & what i said about "catching up", since you seem to have
misread that as well. Is English your first language?
 
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lenny

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The West is not catching up with Asia, that is completely untrue. For one, the culture of Thailand, especially with regard to sex, is extremely different from the rest of Asia. In Asia, you do not have school kids getting into prostitution, except Thailand. In Asia, you do not have college age girls posting on websites advertising themselves as sugar-babies, except Thailand.
I don't know what info leads you to these conclusions. I've seen ads for "sugar babes" on Vancouver's Craigslist years ago. But in years of reading forums re sex in Thailand, i've never heard of any such ads in Thailand. You do know that solicitation is illegal there, at least when it is done "openly and shamelessly or causes a nuisance to the public"? The police in Siam don't have Canadian type stings to catch johns having private talks with street walking working girls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Thailand#Legal_situation_and_history
 

jesuschrist

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I keep saying and you keep ignoring that what goes on in Thailand is not representative of Asia in the least, and certainly speaking of one country and saying it is the whole continent shows a total lack of common sense.

I think you need to travel and spend extensive time in parts of Asia (and not as a sex tourist) before you can speak knowingly about this issue.
 

lenny

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Maybe another approach will work with you:

Where are these Thai "college age girls posting on websites advertising themselves as sugar-babies"? You claim this does not occur in any other Asian country.

You speak of travel in Asia as the source of your knowledge on this subject. Is that how you got the idea of Thai "school kids getting into prostitution" & school kids in all other Asian countries not doing so?
 

jesuschrist

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Maybe another approach will work with you:

Where are these Thai "college age girls posting on websites advertising themselves as sugar-babies"? You claim this does not occur in any other Asian country.

You speak of travel in Asia as the source of your knowledge on this subject. Is that how you got the idea of Thai "school kids getting into prostitution" & school kids in all other Asian countries not doing so?
Those questions speak volumes about what little you know about the matter, and yet another example of wishful thinking on your part.
 

Pillowtalk

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Those questions speak volumes about what little you know about the matter, and yet another example of wishful thinking on your part.

He doesn't read what he copies and quotes, I imagine, or sometimes he doesn't understand what he is posting, or deliberately tries to introduce it with misleading or deliberately misinformed 'conclusions".

For example, he considered (without checking, in spite of being on an escort review forum filled with data) that since the age of consent in Canada is 16, therefore it is legal to see 16 year old sex workers.

The legal age for sex workers is 18, it is against the law to purchase the services of a 16 or 17 (or younger) sp. There is a reason the minimum age for escort advertising is 18, and the laws regarding prostitution very explicitly say the legal age is 18. All this information copy, pasted, linked and quoted, but such a simple thing 'unknown'.

I don't mind if someone really doesn't know, but to imply they do know and then spout off a bunch of nonsense seems quite malicious and intentionally deceptive.
 

lenny

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The following does concur with your statement Pillowtalk:

"The Criminal Code of Canada makes the following unlawful:

"paying for sex with anyone under the age of 18 (Section 212[4]) "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Canada

Thanks for the info. I can always count on you to keep me in line ;

BTW as for the USA states with age of consent at 16, i have no idea where they stand
with the legal age of prostitution. While i previously wrote AFAIK it's 16 on that subject,
my thought process while intoxicated was more like FAIK, or better, i simply don't know.


------------------

To err is human.
 

lenny

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Those questions speak volumes about what little you know about the matter, and yet another example of wishful thinking on your part.
You're the one who made the claims associated with these questions. But now that i'm asking you to back them up, you are exposed as a guy with an unloaded gun. You are coming up empty, shooting blanks.

You think i have to travel to Asia to learn whether or not they have "college age girls posting on websites advertising themselves as sugar-babies"? Seriously?
 

jesuschrist

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You think i have to travel to Asia to learn whether or not they have "college age girls posting on websites advertising themselves as sugar-babies"? Seriously?
If your general reasoning is that you need to find one country on a continent that has certain traits, and that makes it true for the whole continent, and similarly if you can find a few examples on websites somewhere and that makes it true for the whole culture, the you win - because nobody can reason with total irrationality.
 

Dave in Phoenix

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BTW as for the USA states with age of consent at 16, i have no idea where they stand
with the legal age of prostitution.
Other than in certain rural counties of Nevada prostitution is of course totally illegal regardless of age.

The FBI sting in Operation Cross Country VI and millions are spent to go after in private consenting adults using "children and trafficking" as the excuse. It gets folks really excited to help "children" escape the "horrors" of prostitution.

In Phoenix we had 100 consenting adults in one case convicted of felonies, 39 wonderful women facing trial on felonies all for in private consenting adults in our repressive sexual culture (unless selling ads with sex, movies etc).

The FBI doesn't seem to be publishing the zilions of adults from the latest 59 city sting. I know 3 adult outcall escorts arrested in Phoenix lask weekend. They found 2 under aged and 1 pimp out of zillions of adults arrested in Phoenix.

Total for 3-day previous Cross Country V was 954 arrested - 661 adult prostitution arrests, 125 "John/Other", 99 supposed "pimps" and 69 (ah yes) Juveniles aged 12-17 (most were in Seattle)
 

lenny

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Other than in certain rural counties of Nevada prostitution is of course totally illegal regardless of age.
Thanks for the reminder, Dave. After reading your excellent posts & amazing website many times
i don't know how i could have forgotten that. Alzheimers or some form of memory loss, i guess.

It doesn't sound like things are getting any better for hobbyists in the USA.
 

Tugela

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He doesn't read what he copies and quotes, I imagine, or sometimes he doesn't understand what he is posting, or deliberately tries to introduce it with misleading or deliberately misinformed 'conclusions".

For example, he considered (without checking, in spite of being on an escort review forum filled with data) that since the age of consent in Canada is 16, therefore it is legal to see 16 year old sex workers.

The legal age for sex workers is 18, it is against the law to purchase the services of a 16 or 17 (or younger) sp. There is a reason the minimum age for escort advertising is 18, and the laws regarding prostitution very explicitly say the legal age is 18. All this information copy, pasted, linked and quoted, but such a simple thing 'unknown'.

I don't mind if someone really doesn't know, but to imply they do know and then spout off a bunch of nonsense seems quite malicious and intentionally deceptive.
The legal age to enter into contract is 19 (in BC anyway). Under that you need the parents/guardians to consent, since the age of majority is 19. Since someone under 19 can't consent to contract themselves out for prostitution (without permission), if you pay someone who is 18 you still committing sexual assault, even if they consent and are above the age of consent. The normal age of consent (with no restriction on age) is 16, it used to be 14. The exception was when the offender was in a position of power or the relationship was expolitative (ie payment was made), then the age is 18.

In theory someone who is 18 can legally prostitute themselves, but only with their parents consent. That is pretty in likely 99.9% of the time, so in practice the age is 19 in BC.
 

vancity_cowboy

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The legal age to enter into contract is 19 (in BC anyway). Under that you need the parents/guardians to consent, since the age of majority is 19. Since someone under 19 can't consent to contract themselves out for prostitution (without permission), if you pay someone who is 18 you still committing sexual assault, even if they consent and are above the age of consent. The normal age of consent (with no restriction on age) is 16, it used to be 14. The exception was when the offender was in a position of power or the relationship was expolitative (ie payment was made), then the age is 18.

In theory someone who is 18 can legally prostitute themselves, but only with their parents consent. That is pretty in likely 99.9% of the time, so in practice the age is 19 in BC.
nope pardner, yer mixing up different areas of the law

the Criminal Code of Canada, under Section 212 sez:

(4) Every person who, in any place, obtains for consideration, or communicates with anyone for the purpose of obtaining for consideration, the sexual services of a person who is under the age of eighteen years is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of six months.
(note the offense is on the part of the john)

the age is 18. if you want to argue contract law, knock yer brains out, we're talkin' criminal law here

regardless, criminal activities such as procurement are federal jurisdiction; contract law is provincial jurisdiction. federal jurisdiction supercedes provincial jurisdiction, so provincial contract law does not apply to any activity falling under federal jurisdiction such as procurement
just sayin' :)
 
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