Israeli/Gaza: am I missing something here?

[BJhunter]

since I'm doing an effective job here starting threads on bashing anti-Canucklehead, I'm not sure if I'm walking on cracked egg shells here, plus I do want to learn more on this topic, why is the world against Israel, with all these protests?

Here's what I gather about the most recent battle, heading into Day 8:

Gaza is launching rocket attacks on Israel, without any 'new' daily provocation from Israel. Yes, I understand they're upset over land, way of life due to Israeli checkpoints, etc.

So Israel is fighting back, going after the Hamas leaders. Civilian deaths are not cool, part of the collateral damage, but hey, it's not the first time in this conflict, or in the rest of the world. And those rocket attacks are aimed at Jewish residential sites. At least the Israelis are bombing specific targets. Even mosques w/ Hamas leaders inside.

Is Israel supposed to roll over, and let these rockets land in their territory willingly? What else to these worldwide protestors want Israel to do? doesn't any country have a right to defend themselves?

Again, i want to stress that I'm not taking sides, just taking the side if someone attacks my country.

 

[smackyo]

there is so much to this conflict its impossible to find a place to start. but i will say for starters that israel wasn't even a country til after world war II, so where did they get that land from to establish the country of israel? thats right palestine.

after the formation of israel the palestinians largely placed into refugee camps and didn't even have status as a citizen of any country meaning they couldn't get passports or anything like that.

further more there are many rabbi's that are against the existence of israel as a country. the only reason it exists at all is because of a group of secular, zionist jews who wanted to establish it for monetary gain.

as for now, it is what it is. the country exists and thats that. i do not condone rocket attacks into israeli land and i think hamas is pretty fucked up. i do see israel doing some things and trying to make moves towards peace but lets remember that is what we are shown.

israel has continually broke international law in regards to the palestinian conflict. they have played a lot of dirty tricks in diverting water resources from occupied territory to serve for irrigation of isreali lands, the security wall is basically a land grab and lets not even get into the illegal under international law, jewish settlements in occupied palestinian territory.

i think its only natural that the people that are now forced to live in squalid condtions in small occupied territory that used to be their country would resist in some form.

some may look at this as an attack on jews and its not. i have met a few jewish people in my time that i consider good people and even friends and i've spoke with them about this at length. we have both agreed and disagreed about some things.

one things is for sure, its a shit storm of a mess with no easy answers.

with all that being said, i don't think it would be a bad thing for hamas to not exist. their leaders seem to be very backward thinking.

 

[Thatotherguy]

OK, the basic problem is that the Israelis are in the wrong, and are acting like terrorists... and the same is true of the Palestinians. Smackyo actually gives a pretty good very basic overview of the situation.

 

[festealth]

If I may quote Golda Meir....
"[The Arabs] will stop fighting us when they love their children more than they hate [Jews]."
Such a simple concept that many Extreme Palestinians/Arabs are unable to grasp.

There are many players who are at fault here.
Other Muslim nations shouldn't always be talking about how they want/will wipe Israel off the map. Whether you consider the Jews should be given lands that belonged to others.... let the past be a past. Anyone could make claims for that region if you dig far back enough. Babylonians/Assyrians were there before the Palestinians, so were the Romans, Greeks, Phoencians.... how far back should we go to recognize claims?
After the Muslims were expelled, neighbouring nations could be easily accepted the refugees and there wouldn't be sub-standard camps littered along the borders, but doing so would mean those people no longer be able to claim what was theirs prior to the conflict. Instead, of a few hundred thousands that were driven from their homes, the numbers are now into the millions, more suffering for those people.
That Arab-Israeli War of '48, the 6-Day War in 1967, and in 1973, the Yom Kippur War, certainly didn't help anyone, except the resolve of Israel. If it was back in the olden-days, prior to the formation of the UN, the winner takes all and the losers... bend over and hope you have enough lube

The Israelis aren't in the clear either. They have been breaking a lot of international laws. As what Smackyo mentioned above, the diverting of water, the seizing of additional lands, etc. Also attacking/raiding/bombing Gaza/Westbank whenever their leaders get an itch or wants to use force to solve an issue.

When the Palestinians realize that it's better to build infrastructures and factories instead of rockets and training soldiers, that is when the conflict will end. When parents scrape and save money to send their kids to schools/colleges instead of a funeral for their sons and daughters when they become a martyr, the cycle of suffering will cease. When those people finally stop following Hamas and start supporting the Fatah movement, there will be peace in this terribliy long conflict.

 

[Horse99]

a biblical prophesy coming true?

afterall, isn't all this killing in the name of god?

 

[BJhunter]

From what I understand, the Americans have funded and provided weapons and artillery to Israel for decades.

Is there any wonder why so many Muslims have a hate-on for America?

The US has asked for all the terrorism it's experienced by assisting the bullies and picking sides. It was never any of their business, but they chose to interfere and create the kind of hostility and hate that creates suicide bombers and world class terrorists.

We reap what we sow...

xoxo
Nina

Not sure if it's that simple. If the US doesn't provide weapons, don't you think Israel can buy their weapons somewhere else? Last time I heard, Russia, China, Taiwan, Britain & France all make military equipment.

Plus Israel has the $$$ to buy them.

Actually, USA had minded their own business up til WW2, when Japan attacked Pearl Harbour. They had always wanted to avoid any conflict which didn't involve them. Google "Isolationism Policy".

You sound like those fanatics who blame everything on Israel. Like the other pooner said, how far can we go back as to whose land it belongs to? Didn't we steal this land from the Native Indians? You don't see them sending suicide bombers, etc.

 

[classycarly]

From what I understand, the Americans have funded and provided weapons and artillery to Israel for decades.

Is there any wonder why so many Muslims have a hate-on for America?

They have. Very handsomely funded too...., but they have also funded\armed\trained the Palestinians. They seem to be playing both sides of the fence. (for some nefarious reason most likely). Make more money selling arms, have both sides armed and just eventually wipe each other out, then go claim the oil and land, who knows, but I'm pretty sure it's an evil reason.

 

[sevenofnine]

you guys are a bit harsh on israel

yeah, i know i know,
not everyone was for the creation of a jewish state,
even albert einstein, was asked to be the first head of state, i believe but politely declined,
as far as i know he never visited israel

and there is enough blame to go around on both sides,

consider one interesting fact though
in the state of israel palestiniani's can run for government,
i beleive there is even arab judges, in israel, as well as several arabs, in the kinest

when in every other country in the middle east, jews are driven out or have been driven out, and the christians are now being driven out

what would you rather be a jew living in say syria or egypt or lebananon
or a arab living in tel avi

answer that question then lets talk



i remember chatting on line one night with a girl who said she was from tel avi

the hatred she had for arabs, i could feel it,
there will never be peace until they bury there hatred for one another,

 

[Brenten]

'Isolationism' comes to an end with WWII. After that the Communist menace' raises its ugly head, and America adopts a policy supporting allies in regions where Communist governments exist.

For example Taiwan/China, South Vietnam/North Vietnam and in the middle east Israel when Syria, and other states In the ME, Russia supports Eqypt, which includes arms sales, then the US also including arms sales. The US backs Israel, Iran (under the Shah) later adds Egypt then supports Iraq when Iran deposes the Shah. With the USSR's decline the focus changes from one of political influence to fighting terrorism. Lybia, Syria have long been seen as financiers of terrorism against Western or Western leaning countries; so support for pro american states has always been given.

To the US, Israel is the Good Guy in the ME. As such turns a blind eye or less attention to events such as those occurring recently. Throw into this mix the obvious interests the US has for the regions economic potentials and not too much of a bum smacking will be heard from the US. Add to this domestic lobbying farvoring Israel. The US will never bluntly tell Israel that they've overstepped the mark. Nor will Israel view any of its actions as not being warranted and legitimate. The Palestinian's are fractionalized, cohesive action is difficult or impossible.

The region is arguabley the most blood soaked in earth. Economic, religious, sectarian, political and tribal animosities have kept it on the boil forever. Add Western interests and economic motives and its a wonder its not more violent. A cynic might say that the only reason such attention is being paid to the events is the time of year.

My longest post ever, hopefully some of it makes sense. Sorry about the spelling mistakes but I'm drunk.

 

[smackyo]

you guys are a bit harsh on israel

yeah, i know i know,
not everyone was for the creation of a jewish state,
even albert einstein, was asked to be the first head of state, i believe but politely declined,
as far as i know he never visited israel

and there is enough blame to go around on both sides,

consider one interesting fact though
in the state of israel palestiniani's can run for government,
i beleive there is even arab judges, in israel, as well as several arabs, in the kinest

when in every other country in the middle east, jews are driven out or have been driven out, and the christians are now being driven out

what would you rather be a jew living in say syria or egypt or lebananon
or a arab living in tel avi

answer that question then lets talk



i remember chatting on line one night with a girl who said she was from tel avi

the hatred she had for arabs, i could feel it,
there will never be peace until they bury there hatred for one another,

iran actually has the highest population of jews out of all arab countries. they are a protected ethnic group in iran. if you fuck with jews or vandalize jewish places of worship you are given a harsh punishment.

it is also well documented that jews not only survived under muslim rule but thrived. it was not until the creation of israel that jews were driven out of some muslim countries. what is now saudi arabia back in time had a huge population of jews.

something else i find interesting is when someone like iran's president says that they will wipe israel off the map, the media takes it and presents it to us like its literal. this could not be further from the truth. i also don't support irans president cause i think he is a bit of mental case but what he means is the nullification of the jewish state, not blowing it up with nuclear arms.

jerusalem is home to the islamic worlds either 2nd or 3rd holiest sight (i can't remember which). the majdid al harem or dome of the rock is where it is believed that mohamed ascended to heaven. why would the muslims want to desecrate one of their holy sights? this site sits a top the western wall which is the jews holiest sight. it is what remains of the temple of solomon. when the romans burnt it to the ground, the western wall is all that remained.

lots of history here and many different angles to look at and consider. however just because the romans occupied it for a time, i think its kind of ridiculous to say that they might have claim to the land like one pooner mentioned. that would mean that rome could lay claim to britain, all of north africa, spain, portugal, switzerland, greece, turkey and so on.

jews and muslims are from that area, its their historical epicenter, thats why they have claim and the italians (romans) do not.

to the pooner that brought up this point, i'm not trying to show you up, just debate and maybe present a side that you didn't consider.

 

[festealth]

jews and muslims are from that area, its their historical epicenter, thats why they have claim and the italians (romans) do not.

to the pooner that brought up this point, i'm not trying to show you up, just debate and maybe present a side that you didn't consider.

To correct you... I'm not a pooner, just a troll on this forum, lol

It's true that the Romans/Greeks/etc didn't originate from the region, but the concept of "I'm here first, so your guys better hit the road" is tiring. Anyone can make any claim depending on how you want to distort the picture.

Even the Jews weren't the first people in present-day Israel, nor were the Palestinians.

Sometimes the concept of peace is self-defeating. They ought to just let the parties slug it out and whoever is the winner gets the spoils. If you lose, tough luck, pack your bags. None of that ceasefire to let some small faction become into a festering wound. It's like a tumor, you don't just cut half it out and say you're cured, lol.

I never quite understand the "we must own the holy-site" concept. It's not like they're barring people from visiting the site. Christians don't own Nazareth/Bethlehem, and you don't see them (except the odd wacko group) complaining about it.

 

[nd1]

Again, i want to stress that I'm not taking sides, just taking the side if someone attacks my country.

The history of hostilities in the region is so long that one doesn't even know where to begin. That having been said, where one begins to trace the current crisis often is indicative of which side one takes. For example, if one goes back far enough, one might make the case that the Palestinians are the ones being attacked, robbed of their country, occupied and discriminated against in their own land. Neverthelss, a more immediate and perhaps less partisan impression I've got of how it has come about is as follows:

For years, the public face of the Palestinians was Arafat; but, as is the case in similar situations of conflicts, he did not represent every Palestinians. There has for a long time an EVEN MORE aggressive faction within the Palestinians led by the Hamas, which is both political and militarist. When Arafat was around, Hamas somewhat toed the line; after his death, his Fatah successor within the Palestinian government was met with open clashes by them both politically and militarily. In fact, in the last democratic election in 2006, the Hamas politicians won the majority, a result that Israel and the (supposedly "democracy-promoting") West refused to accept and recognize, and, after a sort of civil war, the Palestianian Territory was split into two parts: the West Bank (of River Jordan) that the PA still controls and Gaza which it does not. Labelling them as terrorists, the West has refused to work with the Hamas, withdrawing promised and badly-needed aids and support to the Hamas-controlled Gaza, while continuing to help the PA-controlled West Bank. And Israel put a blockade on Gaza, causing a humanitarian crisis of widespread starvation, fuel shortages and lack of medical care to brew. About the ONLY source of food and fuel has been smuggling tunnels dug underneath the border with Eygpt, which is also official closed by the Eygptian government. Weapons are believed to have also come through those very same tunnels.

Whereas Arafat and Fatah, in exchange for Israel's granting of Palestinian self-rule, have relinguished their goal of extinguishing the Israeli state, Hamas never did. In that pursuit and, as the allegation goes, also to do the bidding for their Syrian and Iranian supporters, Hamas fired random rockets at Israel. By and large, these poorly-aimed rockets have been more a nuissance than a cause of major injuries to the Israelis. Israel has a very good air-defence system and the rockets are just not going deep enough to reach the main populated areas. Some attempts at a truce -- ceasing the rocket launches in exchange for border-crossing -- were attempted in vain. Many believe that the Israelis are taking military action at this very juncture to preempt the inauguration of the new American president, which might not be as supportive, or at least as tacitly-approving, of Israel's aggression as the current one.

 

[bigguy]

No easy answer BUT . . .

the fact that Hamas units/gangs set up mobile rocket launchers, fire away at Israeli CIVILIAN TARGETS and then disappear BACK INTO THE PALESTINIAN CIVILIAN POPULATION, really gets up my nose big time. This timeless ploy to generate (hoped-for sympathy generating for their cause) TV clips of dead or wounded Palestinian civilians sickens me. The ploy that Hamas will sacrifice their fellow civilian lives for bloodied publicity/propoganda is disgusting.

I don't profess to have the REAL facts at my disposal so I have a more liberal bias to this endless conflict. That being said, I have generated a grudging respect over the years for Israel. During that period I also had to endure that disgusting piece of human flesh Yassah Arafat and his in-office bandits suck the Palestinian economy dry. Mighty offensive to me personally. (Of course there were countless other twots in positions of power who were doing likewise in numerous other countries, so Arafat was not alone.)

Israelis have their domestic issues of some of their own folks in power seeking illegal riches. Some get whacked by their government and rightly so. But to have the Palestinian poverty constantly thrust into the international spotlight for pure propoganda purposes while Fatty/Greasy Arafat and his equally disgusting harpy wife lived like Royalty has apparently steered my bias against the Palestinians. While this was going on, I believe Hamas was created to ACTUALLY PROVIDE aid to Palestinians. This was laudable in my book.

Then Arafat finally went bye bye and the power vacuum ensued. The Old Boy brigade seemed poised to continue business as usual with the straws to the economic milkshake being passed to new mouths. Hamas then surfaced as a POLITICAL entity, converting from a domestic civilian aid organization.

I'm getting tired with too much thinking. Getting very tired of all this conflict world wide. Thank God for the peace and humanistic (a great word that James Mischener exemplified) tendencies that Canada practises. Let Hamas fight all they want. Just don't hide behind civilian women's skirts.

bigguy

 

[curmudgeon]

What I see is a bigger, badder version of the Hatfields vs McCoys.

But instead of a 150-year blood feud between neighboring families, there's a thousand years of bad blood between two cultures that both claim physical and spiritual ownership over a big piece of real estate.

Both sides are too busy pointing fingers at each other, trying to find who's "fault" is it, and neither are really looking for a way to settle differences.

The want peace, but both sides want to dictate the terms of the peace. And since neither is willing to give more than token concession on the terms, the fight goes on.

As mentioned before, there will not be peace in the region until they decide they love their children and their future, more than they hate each other. They have to be prepared to discard their history and generations of past grievances and start looking for reasons to live as civil neighbors.

Frankly, I don't see it happening in our lifetimes.

 

[Fudd]

"further more there are many rabbi's that are against the existence of israel as a country"

What exactly do you mean? I thought rabbis would be in favour of having a jewish country?

 

[Fudd]

Whether you believe its the Israeli or Palistinians side, the final result is that the civilians on both sides are the ones suffering every day.

I just do not understand why they just can't work things out peacefully.

 

[bohdan]

How do you negotiate with God?

This is a quote from one of the Hamas leaders the Israelis killed this week:

"The only reason to have a hudna (cease fire) is to prepare yourself for the final battle. We don't need 50 years to prepare ourselves for the final battle with Israel." There is no chance, he said, that true Islam would ever allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. "Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."

And this:

"Allah changed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs, it is true, but he specifically said these apes and pigs did not have the ability to reproduce. So it is not literally true that Jews today are descended from pigs and apes, but it is true that some of the ancestors of Jews were transformed into pigs and apes, and it is true that Allah continually makes the Jews pay for their crimes in many different ways. They are a cursed people."

And finally when asked what were the crimes of Jews:

"You are murderers of the prophets and you have closed your ears to the Messenger of Allah," he said. "Jews tried to kill the Prophet, peace be unto him. All throughout history, you have stood in opposition to the word of God."

Well I for one long ago closed my ears to the "Messenger of Allah" as well as any other so called prophets (ie Jesus) so tell me how does a secular, democratic state such as Israel reason with Hamas, in my opinion force is the only option and we all owe a huge debt of gratitude to the Israelis.

 

[smackyo]

"further more there are many rabbi's that are against the existence of israel as a country"

What exactly do you mean? I thought rabbis would be in favour of having a jewish country?

many rabbis are but they tend to be zionists or far right leaning jews.

not only rabbis but there are many jews that see the establishment of the jewish state of israel as the reason why jews cannot live in peace. i'll provide a link for you that might shed some light. you can also google "zionism"

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm


also not too far back when irans president had his holocaust discussion forum, there were rabbis in attendance that actually shook his hand.

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[nd1]

"further more there are many rabbi's that are against the existence of israel as a country"

What exactly do you mean? I thought rabbis would be in favour of having a jewish country?

The ultra-orthodox belief is that the Messiah would arrive to establish a Jewish state. Since none has been recognized, some rabbis don't see the current Israel as that state but see its existence as a reason that the Messiah is not here sooner.

 

[Bartdude]

so tell me how does a secular, democratic state such as Israel reason with Hamas, in my opinion force is the only option and we all owe a huge debt of gratitude to the Israelis.

Get your eyes checked.

You've got a severe case of selective vision.