Canada and First nations people going to War??

[maxxx24]

Again jj-what are you talking about??!! You have no clue and you clearly demonstrate that in all of your posts. You paint everything with the same brush labeling all reserves the same-they all DO NOT operate the same way. Never heard of a "tribal school"-maybe they are out there in BC. And again, as far as I understand, all provinces controll the ciriculum, as I stated before. Especially here in AB, barely any schools, especially the ones on reserve, have any cultural programs that you must see as contributing to raising corrupt leaders and socially underdeveloped minds.

The residential schools fucked a whole generation or two for parenting and other social skill development that could not be teached as the were taken from their homes, abused a variety of ways everyday, and told just how shitty it was to be an Indian (by the church of course and all govt. approved! It was good for them, would make them assimilate faster). Then they went home, feeling like shit about themselves, not knowing who the were, or how to even properly interact. That is a huge part of why some problems exist. No one can dispute that as it happens in homes accross the country-sexual abuse, physical abuse, etc. the effects have been proven time and time again. We all carry down the techniques of how we were raised, good and bad. But no, FN people are just lazy, corrupt and rich-especially the leaders.

You act like someone who knows what they are talking about, maybe you can grasp this point, but probably not, as Im sure the corrupt billionaire Chiefs are keeping them that way. The Liberal govt really isnt any better at dealing with FN's, but they were much better at having a dialogue, would meet, and would listen. The Conservatives dont. I guess too busy handing out Sens jerseys in Afganistan.

 

[maxxx24]

... I trust you'll corroborate that statement... and that your corroborating statement will also extend to advise that there was adequate monitoring equipment at the time - equipment that has since been replaced with sophisticated monitoring capability. I trust that same corroborating statement will similarly extend to encompass the full complement of some 500 reserves identified to have an inadequate/safe water supply and to (also) be lacking in proper equipment and operational monitoring.

He wont because he cant. He talks in circles and all pointing to corrupt leaders and the billions they receive. Like I mentioned jj-audits can be done on reserves at any time. Good or bad, you never give back up to anything you state as "fact" when its majority your personal opinion.

 

[napcodog]

Questions for the lawyers on here.....

If my mom and dad sold our home when I was say 10.

And

Now it is worth a whole lot more...East side of Vancouver.

Can I now sue or hold for ransom the new owners for more money????

THAN WHY THE HECK CAN THE FIRST NATIONS OR WHAT EVER NAME THEY WANT TO GO BY THIS MONTH!

Sorry...rant over.

 

[maxxx24]

Questions for the lawyers on here.....

If my mom and dad sold our home when I was say 10.

And

Now it is worth a whole lot more...East side of Vancouver.

Can I now sue or hold for ransom the new owners for more money????

THAN WHY THE HECK CAN THE FIRST NATIONS OR WHAT EVER NAME THEY WANT TO GO BY THIS MONTH!

Sorry...rant over.

Im not a lawyer, but I have some experience in both areas, so maybe youll disreguard my post: cant compare the two at all.

For fun, lets try though: mom and dad were told to sell the home or they would be forced into isolation and starved, even more than they currently were as they were the last old family in the area who were trying their best to hold off the new developers from comming in and building that new mega-mall. In return not only would they get a little bit of money (they didnt know any better, the house and what it meant was important, besides they had not idea of the actuall value, so what would they care) but also were promised they would have your family taken care of for generations to come. Thinking of you and your kids, mom and dad relent. "Just sign this paper-oh you cant read or write English-thats OK we have someone here to help you with that, trust us". But hey, the agent has the best intentions, he wants you to become a real estate agent just like him! Or die, which ever is OK by him as long as he gets that house, legally, fair and square according to the paper they just signed.

Now if your mom and dad wanted to sell and knew what there house was worth and had a good lawyer helping them out-no they couldnt sue or hold anyone for ransom.

 

[jjinvan]

Again jj-what are you talking about??!! You have no clue and you clearly demonstrate that in all of your posts. You paint everything with the same brush labeling all reserves the same-they all DO NOT operate the same way. Never heard of a "tribal school"-maybe they are out there in BC. And again, as far as I understand, all provinces controll the ciriculum, as I stated before. Especially here in AB, barely any schools, especially the ones on reserve, have any cultural programs that you must see as contributing to raising corrupt leaders and socially underdeveloped minds.

Actually the Alberta government just recently approved legislation to hand control of primary schooling over to the bands from the provincial government, like we already have in BC. I imagine you'll start seeing those tribal schools being built soon if they haven't already started.

All provinces DO NOT control the curriculum, as I already said, here in BC the bands were given a bunch of money to build big tribal schools on the reserves for primary school. There are 4 such schools within about 10 miles of my house, I drive by two of them almost every single day, I can assure you that they do in fact exist.

If you want to try to debate me on child development and problems FN kids are having in the transition between primary and secondary school in BC you can go ahead but you're the one who is going to wind up looking foolish.

And yes, residential schools were a disaster for a lot of reasons. I never said that was the answer either.

But, in my opinion, handing over control of the primary schools and wads of cash has been a complete DISASTER in BC. The solution is NOT to repeat the same stupid mistake with high school and other services, as the Kelowna Accord was supposed to do.

Yep, the liberals talked a lot with the FN. So... why did the problems get measurably worse in the over 30 years of liberal governments we've had since the 60s?

The liberals talked a lot about Kyoto, and cutting carbon emissions, too. Gee, I wonder how much the emissions went down after Dion signed Kyoto while the liberals were in power... what percentage... anyone? anyone?

 

[jjinvan]

What a dweeb you are - the evacuation was a government decision... nothing to do with FN requests/demands.

What are boil water advisories a symptom of... oh right... contaminated water - so what's your point?

The government of the day wrongly chose the site of the reserve - on a flood plain... and guess what - the reserve is subject to flooding - go figure. Haven't heard of any Richmond floods lately?

Are you actually so dense that you don't realize that Richmond is on a flood plain? Wow, that's pretty impressively stupid of you, you've outdone yourself.

Do you have any clue how many Canadian cities and residential developments are on flood plains? Don't get me wrong, I think it's a stupid place to build but I don't think it's an issue confined to the FN reserves.

Wow, it's going to take a whole lot of tax money to move all those cities and residential developments that were badly chosen by various governments over the years.

Better raise taxes again.

And I never said that the evacuation was the FN's idea.

 

[chuck]

Questions for the lawyers on here.....
If my mom and dad sold our home when I was say 10.
And
Now it is worth a whole lot more...East side of Vancouver.
Can I now sue or hold for ransom the new owners for more money????
THAN WHY THE HECK CAN THE FIRST NATIONS OR WHAT EVER NAME THEY WANT TO GO BY THIS MONTH!
Sorry...rant over.

I am not a lawyer, but you are talking something totally different.

When the First Nations gave up control of North America, they got treaties which were later reneged on by Government and negotiations to resolve these are continuing today on this issue. Now, lets bring the issue you brought up back to your context, which would be your parents sold your house and the new owner took possession but did not pay for the house. What would have your parents done in this case? They would probably have taken the new owner to court and most likely win the case in a speedier process than the First Nations are doing with the Government.

The treaties are one of the reasons for the woes that plaque the First Nations today. The treaties basically took away in the past the rights and privileges afforded to the average Canadian as the First Nations were considered wards of the government. As wards of the government, they were not allowed to vote, not allowed bank loans and those who were veterans of the world wars, were not allowed to collect a war pension as per other veterans who fought in the same fields and died for their country. There are many other rights and privileges that I can name but wish to shorten this reply.

Resolutions on the treaties are slow but are progressing. To actually make any headway, the archaic Indian Act would have to be rewritten and brought into modern times in order to have any chance of seeking resolution.

 

[jjinvan]

From everything I've read and heard about the subject, to say that the FN people don't have the same rights as everyone else is a bit misleading.

The reason I say that it is misleading is because, again from everything I've seen and heard about the subject, anyone with FN status who was born in Canada can give up that status and move off the reserve and have exactly the same rights as any other Canadian citizen, no more, no less.

I know several people who grew up on reserves and had status and then left the reserve and did quite well for themselves.

Does anyone know of any LEGAL barriers to this? Is there actually any law stopping them from doing so?

In other words, do they actually NOT have every single right that any other citizen has, if they are willing to accept exactly the SAME rights as everyone else, and not more?

Don't bother calling me names or answering this question with some 'it is society's fault' drivel. Is there a legal barrier to them having exactly the same rights as everyone else, or isn't there?

 

[Bartdude]

Because legal barriers are the only ones that count.

You are a goddamn fucking idiot.

Period.

 

[maxxx24]

From everything I've read and heard about the subject, to say that the FN people don't have the same rights as everyone else is a bit misleading.

The reason I say that it is misleading is because, again from everything I've seen and heard about the subject, anyone with FN status who was born in Canada can give up that status and move off the reserve and have exactly the same rights as any other Canadian citizen, no more, no less.

I know several people who grew up on reserves and had status and then left the reserve and did quite well for themselves.

Does anyone know of any LEGAL barriers to this? Is there actually any law stopping them from doing so?

In other words, do they actually NOT have every single right that any other citizen has, if they are willing to accept exactly the SAME rights as everyone else, and not more?

Don't bother calling me names or answering this question with some 'it is society's fault' drivel. Is there a legal barrier to them having exactly the same rights as everyone else, or isn't there?

Bill C-31 in 1985 basically put FNs as equal citizens with the rest of Canada, but the Indian Act still prevails over the Charter wrt FNs and the authority the govt(Act) has over them. No, you cannot give up your status, and this is not the '60's-Indians can now leave the reserve without the Indian agents permission(which was a legal barrier). Another major leagal barrier untill C-31 was enfranchisement-you could then vote in a federal election, get a little land, and have full "citizenship" but in turn gave up status. You should know jj, this is basic stuff.

 

[IttyBittyTitty]

Uh, feel free not to "trust my opinion." I was under the impression that it was common sense not to assume that one member of a group necessarily speaks for all members of that group.

And I was under the impression that it was common sense to NOT assume that whenever someone refers to a group (be it a racial group or something as trivial as the fan base of the local hockey team) that they are indeed referring to every single person that qualifies in that group. See, people shouldn't have to go through the redundant step of clarifying that they are NOT generalizing every single person that belongs to one race when they refer to that group. Common sense says that the person isn't actually referring to every single Indian on the planet.

So before you go whining about people not using common sense, mayhap you should practice what you preach and use some common sense yourself.

Thanks for playing.

 

[IttyBittyTitty]

The problem is that there is a big separation between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' in the native community. The Squamish Nation is one of the richest, if not the richest band in Canada. Yet, if you go through their reserve (lived next to it all my life), you will see some very well to do people/properties and some near the poverty line.

There is a big issue with band leadership. If you are in the good books with the leadership, then you are first in line for payouts, else, you aren't. There was a Native women making the talk show circuits a few years back pointing out all these issues. Of course, you get a free house, but that doesn't have any value in the eyes of the banks. So your assets are pretty minimal on reserve land.

On top of all that, there are many bands that do not have the property/mineral rights to really make any money. There are some very very poor bands out there, especially in the northern parts of many provinces. Why do you think early Canadians put them on those reserve lands? No one wanted those pieces of land.

Anyways, after all that, I do believe that it is the Native man or woman's responsibility to change their own system instead of blaming the outside system.

I have known a couple of Native guys who moved off the reserve, got an education and got a good job. Other Natives call them "whitey lover", etc...There is no respect for Natives that have the balls to choose their own future. Of course, this is similar to issues in American public schools where there is peer pressure from African American juniors against other AA's not to succeed in school because they are considered "whiteys boy". (sorry, can't find the link, though I believe it was an AP article a few weeks ago)

I believe the term you are looking for is 'potato.' It means brown on the outside, white on the inside.

And before the PC weenies flip their lid and label me a racist, that's an actual term used amongst Native people.

 

[jjinvan]

Bill C-31 in 1985 basically put FNs as equal citizens with the rest of Canada, but the Indian Act still prevails over the Charter wrt FNs and the authority the govt(Act) has over them. No, you cannot give up your status, and this is not the '60's-Indians can now leave the reserve without the Indian agents permission(which was a legal barrier). Another major leagal barrier untill C-31 was enfranchisement-you could then vote in a federal election, get a little land, and have full "citizenship" but in turn gave up status. You should know jj, this is basic stuff.

So, in other words, they DO have every single one of the rights that any other citizen has.

I was reasonably sure that this was the case, but I didn't know it for a fact.

If you want to talk about 'other barriers', then I guess one could say that they are pretty much on an even footing with all the other 'visible minorities'.

But, the question is, would they be happy with JUST all the same rights as every other citizen? I doubt it.

 

[LaCreme]

So, in other words, they DO have every single one of the rights that any other citizen has.

I was reasonably sure that this was the case, but I didn't know it for a fact.

If you want to talk about 'other barriers', then I guess one could say that they are pretty much on an even footing with all the other 'visible minorities'.

But, the question is, would they be happy with JUST all the same rights as every other citizen? I doubt it.

yeah maybe but the fed do everything to make it happen.. and it will do the dissimulation to make them regular citizen.. because is lest problem to Handel i had met a indian female who was looking for male indian to not lose her right.
as i say "fight for your right" in Quebec the regular police don't even go to the reserve.

 

[maxxx24]

Actually the Alberta government just recently approved legislation to hand control of primary schooling over to the bands from the provincial government, like we already have in BC. I imagine you'll start seeing those tribal schools being built soon if they haven't already started.

All provinces DO NOT control the curriculum, as I already said, here in BC the bands were given a bunch of money to build big tribal schools on the reserves for primary school. There are 4 such schools within about 10 miles of my house, I drive by two of them almost every single day, I can assure you that they do in fact exist.

If you want to try to debate me on child development and problems FN kids are having in the transition between primary and secondary school in BC you can go ahead but you're the one who is going to wind up looking foolish.

And yes, residential schools were a disaster for a lot of reasons. I never said that was the answer either.

But, in my opinion, handing over control of the primary schools and wads of cash has been a complete DISASTER in BC. The solution is NOT to repeat the same stupid mistake with high school and other services, as the Kelowna Accord was supposed to do.

Yep, the liberals talked a lot with the FN. So... why did the problems get measurably worse in the over 30 years of liberal governments we've had since the 60s?

The liberals talked a lot about Kyoto, and cutting carbon emissions, too. Gee, I wonder how much the emissions went down after Dion signed Kyoto while the liberals were in power... what percentage... anyone? anyone?

Again, bulls---. ALL provinces control their repective core curriculum (for FNs as well) and as educated as you say you are, how the hell do you not know that? (I am in no way meaning to undermine you if you did go to school and work hard to achieve a degree etc. but come on.) And no, the Ab gov has not recently signed such legislation. Most, if not all provinces have some sort of policy in place with goals to help FNs catch up to the rest of the province-again that aint new either- in most cases.

But in BC if you are reffering to Bill C-34-The First Nations Jurisdiction over Education Act, then you are partially correct. DIAND is responsible for all FN education services-not programming (ie. curriculum). The bill allows for new partnerships with BC FNs , the prov, and feds to set up educational authorities and have more control over the educational services, budgets, hiring staff, and culture specific areas(some curriculum as long as it is transferable between schools in the prov, and more stuff)-basically a board to govern the day to day operations and greater hands on responsibility and accountability.

Here in AB, I know of a few bands that have been doing that for years: an education authority, transfer agreements, tuition agreements etc. for K-12-all beeen in place for a while. Maybe on oyur end they got some cash to build new schools-privately? allocated by the prov? feds? But if you know ppl at the school and they told you that they opted into C-34 and had a new service delivery system in place, an authority or some new programming in addition to the provicial standards, Id say you know your stuff, but you didnt. And again, you and all the money bands receive it is a new system, how has it been a disater already? The band is responsible for any deficits-are they all in deficit? Mismanaged funds? What? In your opinion, what evidence have you seen specifically relating to what you call a DISASTER.

All I said about the Liberals is that they were more open to discussion and not much better than the Conservatives wrt to FNs-so yeah, things really didnt change. And I dont recall challenging you anywhere about the social stigmas the kids go through-ie. social development, FAS, etc. I see it all the time.

For Kyoto, I never really have supported that, so no comment LOL

 

[maxxx24]

So, in other words, they DO have every single one of the rights that any other citizen has.

I was reasonably sure that this was the case, but I didn't know it for a fact.

If you want to talk about 'other barriers', then I guess one could say that they are pretty much on an even footing with all the other 'visible minorities'.

But, the question is, would they be happy with JUST all the same rights as every other citizen? I doubt it.

Like I said-basically. In my understanding, The Indian Act is over and above the Charter. And no, one could not say they are pretty much on even footing as other visible minorities-the minorities dont have a second, seperate set of rules to live by, treaties, land issues, and a 100 year plus history directly with the British/Canadian govt. Totally, completely different. How the hell did you infer that? I dont think many ppl really understand what kind of stuff is in the Act-it is quite the read. FNs would be extremely happy to be treated as equals-doesnt happen though. Yet you doubt it, even though you said you all ready believed they had equal rights, but then questioned it again at the end? Must be those corrupt rich guys again-I think they got to you too

 

[jjinvan]

What? In your opinion, what evidence have you seen specifically relating to what you call a DISASTER.

First you say that I'm wrong and the province does it all, even in BC, then you show that you know that it isn't the case...

The tribal schools out here are NOT terribly new.

And, to answer your question above, the answer is quite simple.

How do you judge the success or failure of a primary school education?

Hmm.. perhaps you see how the kids do when they end up in secondary school? How many of them eventually graduate? How many of them go on to post-secondary educations? Maybe compare between two different types of primary school education? Or is that just a dumb way to do it?

That is the indicator by which I say it has been a disaster.

As far as why goes, I don't pretend to have a degree in education, or to be qualified to analyse the curriculums in the tribal schools as compared to the regular schools etc etc...

But, I do have quite a bit of training in assessing the intellectual, social and academic development of children and in the effects of diseases, injuries and environment on them.

The FN kids who go to regular school (not band run tribal schools) do considerably better in secondary school.

No, I am not talking about the kids who went to residential schools. I'm talking about the kids who went to the same schools as the non FN kids.

Oh and by the way, you might want to read this:

http://weblogs.elearning.ubc.ca/ross/archives/028719.html

An historic agreement among B.C. First Nations, the provincial and federal governments will allow First Nations to control their own education. First Nations will be allowed to set up their own school boards, certify teachers, and determine the curriculum to be taught from kindergarten through Grade 12 for tens of thousands of B.C. aboriginal children.

So, BC is actually following the Kelowna Accord idea of making things worse instead of better, and extending the control all the way to Grade 12 (it was already there for primary school, as I said earlier).

There's plenty of links to sources in that article, in case your next thought is to question the source of the article. It was just the easiest way to link it all together.

And, if I recall, the same deal was more recently reached in Alberta, it may still be in negotiation though, I'm not 100% sure that it has been finalized there as it has in BC.

Next time you want to say I'm wrong and a moron who has no clue what he's talking about, you might just want to check and make sure that it isn't YOU who has no clue what he's talking about.

I don't expect an apology.

 

[LaCreme]

Because legal barriers are the only ones that count.

You are a goddamn fucking idiot.

Period.

i think is not nice to say that to JJinvan because i said so!
how many time have you been posting here in that thread?.. before to insult anyone make sure you know what is going on.

 

[jjinvan]

Like I said-basically. In my understanding, The Indian Act is over and above the Charter.

Nope.

The Indian Act does not invoke the notwithstanding clause.

The question is, are there other things in the constitution with regards to FN peoples, and the answer is yes. I'd have to go read through it for specifics as it has been a while since I've read it but I do remember that there is quite a bit in there.

The constitution (of which the charter is a part) over-rides any laws that don't specifically use the mechanism in the constitution to be exempt from being over-ridden (ie: notwithstanding clause).

Otherwise, what's the point of the constitution?

 

[jjinvan]

Because legal barriers are the only ones that count.

You are a goddamn fucking idiot.

Period.

When you are talking about 'rights', yes, legal rights are the only ones that count.

When people make the claim that they want to have the same rights as other people do, the ONLY way to determine what rights people have, is by looking at the laws (and constitution, which grants legal rights as well).

If it's not in the laws and it's not in the constitution, then it's not a right.

are you too daft to realize that?