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An Inconvenient Truth

Randy Whorewald

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It's obvious that I have a better understanding of it then you do;

Additionally, given that I have to read scientific literature on a fairly regular basis,
Congratulations Aznboi, the foregoing should be sufficient to confer upon you a lefty science degree. lol.

Have you ever considered that the people disagreeing with the global warming issue may also be quite qualified? Perhaps you should have a look at the attached listing and check out a few crdentials. Some of these people may possibly know even more about the subject than you!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scient...tream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

The problem with the global warming debate - as far as time frame - is
it's a lot like measuring weight loss in seconds rather than weeks. You
can observe that you've lost weight in the last ten minutes, and you
can even COMPARE total weight to some time far in the past - but trying
to declare a trend based on a short interval such as a few minutes is
meaningless.

With global climate, you need time periods significantly larger than
most people are using to declare a 'trend' that has any significance.
That the planet is warming over the last few years may be verifiable,
but proving it's significant is again, similar to proclaiming you've
lost weight since 30 minutes ago. It doesn't mean anything over the
time frame referenced.
 

Randy Whorewald

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Now there's a scientific approach if I ever saw one!! :confused:

I'm afraid the debate is far from dead, future governments will rise or fall on this issue.
 

Randy Whorewald

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you're asking a lot of him to actually read real info on a subject before he posts. i mean, i try to post a few cartoons, figgering comic books are his real forte, but he don't read them, either

he doesn't have to; anything that looks like it might remotely question the ideas of Global Warming is gold, to him.

It's his life-long vocation to stop the evil environmentalists from fostering a socialist dictatorship

that's what him & the other ideologues flogging this horse care about -- just about every real climatology scientists, most politicians & gov'ts, most of business (except the most neanderthal co's in Big Energy) -- have left the field to the few partisan ideologues to keep on fighting the war against rationality, science, and facts

But please, village idjit -- please tell us how your "experts" from the oil industry, unable to publish in real science journals, generally shown to lie about the data, -- how they're smarter than the American Association for the Advancement of Science & the National Academy of Sciences

*snicker*

& then tell us how


we could all use a LOL

.
C-Licker, if I want any shit from you I would squeeze your head!! That has to be the 54th time you've mentioned the American Association for the Advancement of Science & the National Academy of Sciences. Get over them, there are lots of other scientists just as qualified.
 

citylover

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(The following post is written knowing full well it is a waste of time and an exercise in futility, because some people are just like the Bizarro Joe Friday, "Don't bother me w/ the facts, ma'm")

C-Licker, if I want any shit from you I would squeeze your head!!
But please, village idjit -- please tell us how your "experts" from the oil industry, unable to publish in real science journals, generally shown to lie about the data, -- how they're smarter than the American Association for the Advancement of Science & the National Academy of Sciences
I didn't think you could, but I thought I'd give you a chance

It's clear from your vomitous drivel that continues to come out of your hole (3 posts in a row just on this page alone) that you have plenty of shit. I'm just concerned that you seem intent on spewing it out on everyone & everything who may possibly disagree w/ your partisan, ideological views.

You wouldn't be pissed at the references to the AAAS & the Academy if you had a clue what these organizations are, whom they represent, and what processes they go thru. You have no clue what peer review means or why the studies that make up science go thru this process.

Nearly every organized body of scientists around the world believes that Global Warming is real, it is driven by human behavior, and it's necessary to do something about it. The AAAS & the Academy simply reflect that mainstream view in their work.

I bring them up because you've repeatedly claim "no scientist believes in Global Warming" & other drivel. You bring up a "skeptic" which, in each & every case, is shown to either not publish anything on the subject in peer reviewed journals, published old studies found to be wrong, or who falsely claim real scientists say the opposite of what they've said. You never answer these things, you just continually refer to the liars & the Big Oil scientists as the "skeptics" who support your view, even after they're shown to be liars or falsifiers. The Channel 4 doc is a prime example.

You've also repeatedly shown that your "questions" about global warming have nothing to do w/ science, but rather that you, personally, oppose them because you have some bizarre idea that environmentalists are going to foster socialism on the entire world.

The refs to AAAS & the Academy are entirely relevant to this, as you cannot counter these bodies of science w/ a handful of skeptics that have not published on the issue or have been shown to be dishonest in their presentations in the popular press.

The refs to Big Oil trying to muddy the issue for purely personal gains is also relevant, you can't seem to make any argument that their PR firms haven't made before. Their only purpose is to confuse the issue, not work on a solution.

The nutso right wingers like you are isolated even from mainstream business & financial circles, whom, outside of the most reactionary part of Big Energy, don't have any problem w/ doing something about the issue.

Hell, even the Shrub's reactionary allies around the world, like Canada's Conservative gov't, reject these views. The main gov'ts that don't are Russia, which is simply one corrupt oil state, China, which is desperately trying to industrialize & develop at any cost, and other undeveloped nations that recognized the issue might hamper industrialization & development in their own countries. & some of them still supported Kyoto, a meager 1st step at trying to deal w/ the issue, because they're not quite as stupid as you.

You just can't make any argument other than an ad hominem one, driven by your partisan, reactionary ideology & personal hatred of Al Gore & hollywood.

& you continually flood this site w/ your drivel, hoping to just wear down anyone who actually has a brain, and uses it, to give up & go away. That's the only way you can win any argument having to do w/ science, you can only censor those who oppose you, the way the Big Oil lobbyists have done working thru the Shrubs White House.

 
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sdw

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It would seem that we will vote on the issue soon

I have just tuned into the Quebec Election Results.

Wow.

This is going to change things. The PQ has lost it's appeal to the Quebec Voter. This should translate to the Bloc being also less popular.

I was actually hoping that the PQ would do well because it would mean that Harper would move to include some of the amendments to the Clean Air Act. Harper knows that, unlike the budget, the opposition partys would love to run on the issue of Global Warming/Environment. If the PQ had won in Quebec, Harper would have done some consensus building in order to avoid a non-confidence vote on the issue.

Now, Harper can see a clear opportunity to remove the Bloc as a political force. Letting the opposition force an election gives him a real chance to change the political map in Canada. Harper, of course, knows that most of the seats that are taken away from the Bloc won't be coming to him. However, changing the political map back into a 2 National Party map is better for him than the current 3 National Party and 1 Regional Party map.

There should be some interesting maneuvering in the next week or so. It should be interesting to see if the Bloc votes their talk and votes against an unamended Clean Air Act or if they vote to support Harper and avoid a National Election at this time.
 

aznboi9

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May 3, 2005
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Have you ever considered that the people disagreeing with the global warming issue may also be quite qualified? Perhaps you should have a look at the attached listing and check out a few crdentials. Some of these people may possibly know even more about the subject than you!
Have you considered that some of the people listed on there may be down right loony? There are a couple in there who claim that CFC's had no affect on the ozone layer! Perhaps YOU should look at the attached listing as do some reading on them. There are some with good credentials; but there are also a lot that seem to be either retired, haven't published any research in some time, have questionable links to oil and gas, are just plain nuts or are proponents of the solar radiation theory that you've already claimed was the answer to everything but was shown to have weaknesses in as well.

BTW, I never claimed to be an expert; I'm not a climatologist. I just claimed to have a better understanding of it than YOU. I have an idea. If your so convinced that you have all the answers, why don't you actually contact a climatologists with you “mountain” of irrefutable research and ideas and ask them for their opinion?

Congratulations Aznboi, the foregoing should be sufficient to confer upon you a lefty science degree. lol.
That's mature. Maybe I should say “Typical righty, can't make an argument so has to resort to name calling”.

The problem with the global warming debate - as far as time frame - is
it's a lot like measuring weight loss in seconds rather than weeks. You
can observe that you've lost weight in the last ten minutes, and you
can even COMPARE total weight to some time far in the past - but trying
to declare a trend based on a short interval such as a few minutes is
meaningless.
The problem with the global warming debate is that people have to rely on incorrect arguments for them to easily dispute. It all depends on the extent of the change as well as extent of the deviation from previous trends.

BTW, if you're just going to resort to coping and pasting other people's arguments, the decent thing to do would be to at least give said author credit for the copied work.
 

OTBn

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I have just tuned into the Quebec Election Results.

Wow.

This is going to change things. The PQ has lost it's appeal to the Quebec Voter. This should translate to the Bloc being also less popular.
always difficult to correlate provincial-to-federal voting, particularly in Quebec --- although, I trust, it may force the Bloc to reconcile it's continued support for Harper.
 

OTBn

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great post citylover... always good to include a Tom Tomorrow toon for Randy's sake - pictures is good fer Randy.
 

Randy Whorewald

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What you can do to fight global warming:

1) Swap out your incandescent lights for energy efficient Flourescent.
2) Combine your trips so that you don't need to drive as much.
3) Buy cars that get as good gas milage as you can afford.
4) Turn off things you aren't using.
5) Recycle.
6) Caulk and weatherstrip your house.
7) Use public transit.
8) Keep your car tires properly inflated.
9) Buy products that have the Energy Star.
10) Install a programmable thermostat.



11) GET AL GORE TO STOP FLYING AROUND IN THAT PRIVATE JET ALL OVER THE WORLD SPEWING HIS HYPOCRISY ABOUT THIS ISSUE AND REDUCE HIS ENERGY CONSUMPTION BY OWNING ONE SMALLER HOME RATHER THAN 4 HUGE HOMES THAT EACH CONSUMEs 30 TIMES THE ENERGY AS YOU AND I.


great post citylover... always good to include a Tom Tomorrow toon for Randy's sake - pictures is good fer Randy.
OTBn here is a picture that reminds me of your behaviour on this thread / board! Of course there is a big difference between Hitler & Stalin but their methods were quite similar.

 
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Randy Whorewald

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If your so convinced that you have all the answers, why don't you actually contact a climatologists with you “mountain” of irrefutable research and ideas and ask them for their opinion?
You just may be starting to get my point in all this AZB, NO-ONE has all the answers because the situation on this planet is always changing. Today's scientific conclusions can become outdated garbage within a decade. That is precisely my point which some of those of lesser intellect here fail to grasp.

BTW - here are some interesting items on the subject. (no I didn't write them myself but the respective sources are identified)

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index....Store_id=56dd129d-e40a-4bad-abd9-68c808e8809e

For a bit of satire read this:

No matter how much liberals try to dress up their nutty superstitions about global warming as "science," which only six-fingered lunatics could doubt, scratch a global warming "scientist" and you get a religious fanatic.

These days, new religions are barely up and running before they seize upon the worst aspects of the God-based religions.

First, there's the hypocrisy and corruption. At the 1992 Democratic Convention in New York, Al Gore said: "The central organizing principle of governments everywhere must be the environment." The environment would not, however, be the central organizing principle of Gore's own life.

The only place Al Gore conserves energy these days is on the treadmill. I don't want to suggest that Al's getting big, but the last time I saw him on TV I thought, "That reminds me -- we have to do something about saving the polar bears."

Never mind his carbon footprint -- have you seen the size of Al Gore's regular footprint lately? It's almost as deep as Janet Reno's.

But I digress. As has been widely reported, Gore's Tennessee mansion consumes 20 times the energy of the average home in that state. But it's OK, according to the priests of global warming. Gore has purchased "carbon offsets."

It took the Catholic Church hundreds of years to develop corrupt practices such as papal indulgences. The global warming religion has barely been around for 20 years, and yet its devotees are allowed to pollute by the simple expedient of paying for papal indulgences called "carbon offsets."

Americans spend an extra $2.2 billion on gas a year because they're overweight, requiring more fuel in cars to carry the extra pounds. So even with all those papal indulgences, Gore may have a small carbon footprint, but he has a huge carbon butt-print.

Further proving that liberalism is a religion, its practitioners respond with the zeal of Torquemada to any dissent from the faith in global warming.

A few years ago, Danish statistician Bjorn Lomborg wrote a book titled "The Skeptical Environmentalist," disputing the hysteria surrounding global warming and other environmentalist scares. Lomborg is a Greenpeace anti-war protester -- or, as he is described on liberal websites, he is a "young, gay vegetarian Dane with tight T-shirts." His book was cited favorably in The New York Times.

But for questioning the "science" behind global warming, Lomborg was brought up on charges of "scientific misconduct" by Denmark's Inquisition Court, called the "Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation." I take it Denmark's Ministry of Truth was booked solid that day.

The moment anyone diverges from official church doctrine on global warming, he is threatened with destruction. Heretics would be burnt at the stake if liberals could figure out how to do it in a "carbon neutral" way.

Climatologist Dr. Timothy Ball is featured in the new documentary debunking global warming, titled "The Great Global Warming Swindle." For this heresy, Ball has received hate mail with such messages as, "If you continue to speak out, you won't live to see further global warming."

I'm against political writers whining about their hate mail because it makes them sound like Paul Krugman. But that's political writers arguing about ideology.

Global warming is supposed to be "science." It's hard to imagine Niels Bohr responding to Albert Einstein's letter questioning quantum mechanics with a statement like: "If you continue to speak out, you won't live to see further quantum mechanics."

Come to think of it, one can't imagine the pope writing a letter to Jerry Falwell saying, "If you continue to speak out, you won't live to see further infallibility."

If this is how global warming devotees defend their scientific theory, it may be a few tweaks short of a scientific theory. Scientific facts are not subject to liberal bullying -- which, by the way, is precisely why liberals hate science.

A few years ago, The New York Times ran an article about the continuing furious debates among physicists about quantum mechanics, which differs from global warming in the sense that it is supported by physical evidence and it doesn't make you feel good inside to "do something" about quantum mechanics. It is, in short, science.

Though he helped develop the theory of quantum mechanics, Einstein immediately set to work attacking it. MIT cosmologist Max Tegmark called the constant testing and arguing about quantum mechanics "a 75-year war."

That's how a real scientific theory operates. That's even how a real religion operates. Only a false religion needs hate mail, threats, courts of inquisition and Hollywood movies to sustain it.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=yes&id=19927
 
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aznboi9

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You just may be starting to get my point in all this AZB, NO-ONE has all the answers because the situation on this planet is always changing. Today's scientific conclusions can become outdated garbage within a decade. That is precisely my point which some of those of lesser intellect here fail to grasp.
Uh, no actually, that was never you're point. You're argument was that because it wasn't "proven" then it wasn't science and, therefore, climate change theory is false; look at your previous posts in this thread. My argument was that evidence to date was in favour of anthropogenic influences affecting global temperature patterns. I argued that they could be wrong; but you have to go with what the best evidence tells you. I've also argued that you're so called "evidence" has been either consistently wrong, lacking credibility or just plain full of shit. See below.

BTW - here are some interesting items on the subject. (no I didn't write them myself but the respective sources are identified)
Oh wow, a so-called report that's nothing more than a collection of editorials and press releases followed by the same tired "Al Gore is a hypocrite; therefore, Global Warming isn't happening" schtick. And this from the "objective" pen of Ann Coulter of all people. My God, you know you're pathetic when you have to turn to Ann Coulter for your arguments.
 

rollerboy

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Global warming is supposed to be "science." It's hard to imagine Niels Bohr responding to Albert Einstein's letter questioning quantum mechanics with a statement like: "If you continue to speak out, you won't live to see further quantum mechanics."
Nice. Fucking brilliant riposte.


A few years ago, The New York Times ran an article about the continuing furious debates among physicists about quantum mechanics, which differs from global warming in the sense that it is supported by physical evidence and it doesn't make you feel good inside to "do something" about quantum mechanics. It is, in short, science.

Though he helped develop the theory of quantum mechanics, Einstein immediately set to work attacking it. MIT cosmologist Max Tegmark called the constant testing and arguing about quantum mechanics "a 75-year war."
This is why Quantum Mechanics is the most powerful scientific theory ever devised. The greatest minds of the the last century wracked their brains exploring every challenge, every alternative, every possibility they could conceive.

The body of evidence directly supporting QM is staggering, and yet physicists continue to probe its basic postulates. By comparison, AGW is based on statistical inference applied to uncertain temperature proxies, evidence of correlations between observed phenomena (not direct proof of causality), and computer models which cannot hope to capture all the dynamical variables which influence climate. The evidence supporting the Theory of AGW is incomparably weaker than the evidence girding QM, and yet physicists are far more curious and engaged exploring the limits of the latter.

No physicist becomes angry if you do not believe Quantum Mechanics. It's quite natural to be agasp. They can show you a breathtaking panorama of experiments which will turn intuition upside down. And still they will invite you to question its fundamental notions.

Meanwhile, Classical Mechanics is still a vibrant and active field, because it has much to tell us about reality, even if in some sense, it is "wrong." Of course, even the classical theories of mechanics and electromagnetism have far greater experimental confirmation than AGW.
 
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OTBn

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You just may be starting to get my point in all this
Your point... is that you have no point... you're arguing with yourself, contradicting yourself (as has been shown many times), you make shit up and reach for any google glimmer of hope to reconcile your lost credibility. But you're good comic relief so have at er...

... and you played the Hitler card too. :D
 

OTBn

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Yes... a fitting tribute to the sudden turnaround... see Randy - even Harper gets it :D

The Greening of Stephen Harper

Ignore the Arctic's melting caps
The warnings on the weather maps,
The ozone layer's gaping holes,
But Stephen, don't ignore the polls.
When worried voters all go green,
A nation's leader must be seen
To turn his platform on a dime
And shift convictions just in time
To save, if not the polar bear,
At least his party's market share.

Your climate's changed, if not your views.
Where once it pleased you to abuse
All those who dumped on CO2
As socialism's wrecking crew,
Now, you pretend to see the light
And fight Stéphane Dion's good fight.
With born-again believer's zeal,
Just swear that global warming's real --
Adapt, unlike the polar bears,
And you'll survive the pollster's scares.
(John Allemang - Globe&Mail)
 

sdw

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Effects of rising sea levels

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,262007,00.html

"LONDON — More than two-thirds of the world's large cities are in areas vulnerable to global warming and rising sea levels, and millions of people are at risk of being swamped by flooding and intense storms, according to a new study released Wednesday.

In all, 634 million people live in the threatened coastal areas worldwide — defined as those lying at less than 33 feet above sea level — and the number is growing, said the study published in the journal Environment and Urbanization.

More than 180 countries have populations in low-elevation coastal zones, and about 70 percent of those have urban areas of more than 5 million people that are under threat. Among them: Tokyo; New York; Mumbai, India; Shanghai, China; Jakarta, Indonesia; and Dhaka, Bangladesh."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,261642,00.html?sPage=fnc.science/naturalscience

"WASHINGTON — Some climates may disappear from Earth entirely, not just from their current locations, while new climates could develop if the planet continues to warm, a study says.

Such changes would endanger some plants and animals while providing new opportunities for others, said John W. Williams, an assistant professor of geography at the University of Wisconsin, Madison.

Using global change forecasts prepared for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, researchers led by Williams used computer models to estimate how climates in various parts of the world would be affected."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,261380,00.html?sPage=fnc.science/naturalscience

"Greenland is not known for hurricanes, but the frigid land mass does host some of the strongest — and most mysterious — winds on the planet.

Now scientists say the bizarre winds could be linked to weather and climate phenomena far from the icy realm.

After two weeks of flying head-on into hurricane-force winds that whipped recently around the southern tip of Greenland, a group of scientists has a better idea of just how these winds relate to broader weather patterns, global ocean circulation and climate."

The reality is that we don't have to understand the precise reasons for the current warming trend. We are currently experiencing some of the effects and if we don't do what we can to mitigate the problem, we will suffer predictable severe adverse effects.

The days of hiding our heads in the sand are long over.
 

therealrex

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May 19, 2004
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,262007,00.htmlThe reality is that we don't have to understand the precise reasons for the current warming trend. We are currently experiencing some of the effects and if we don't do what we can to mitigate the problem, we will suffer predictable severe adverse effects.

The days of hiding our heads in the sand are long over.
How can we mitigate something we know so little about? For all the bullshit computer models produced I doubt if anyone understands even 1% of how the earth's climate works.
 

sdw

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How can we mitigate something we know so little about? For all the bullshit computer models produced I doubt if anyone understands even 1% of how the earth's climate works.
There are things that we can do immediately to mitigate the problem of Global Warming and that make sense economically.

What we have to recognize is that while people may want a water view, that doesn't make rivers and oceans the best place to build. Rivers are not a primary transportation network anymore and we already suffer the consequences of flooding without a rise in mean sea levels.

What we have to recognize is that we are currently conducting an open experiment on the effects of dumping heat and CO2 into our atmosphere without understanding or wanting to accept the consequences of our actions.

We already know that we can provide base energy needs for large urban centers through Wind and Hydro Electricity Generation.

We already know that we can provide the hot water and heating needs for a normal single family home with evacuated tube solar water heating and we can do this quite far north.

We already know how to build rail based transportation systems that can easily be electric powered. It's not necessary for everybody to drive in to work.

We already know how to get people out of their cars through the examples of London, Paris, Rome and other major centers. We use a combination of area road taxes and good transportation systems to make public transportation more economically desirable than a personal vehicle.

We already know how to build energy efficient homes and there are new technologies that make the pay back on investment very quick, after that a house's energy costs become very attractive.

We already know that we aren't going to be able to run an economy based on cheap petroleum for much longer. This has everything to do with global politics and the ability to develop replacement supplies. There's lots of oil, the problem we are going to have is gaining access to it and paying it's higher cost of exploitation.

We can easily reduce the amount of CO2 that we create by 5 - 10%, while this isn't the goal that the poster boys like Gore want, it isn't a scam like Carbon Credits.
 

Randy Whorewald

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....from the "objective" pen of Ann Coulter of all people. My God, you know you're pathetic when you have to turn to Ann Coulter for your arguments.

Umm - You might not have noticed I prefaced it with 'satire' . You should pay more attention boy!

 

Randy Whorewald

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Uh, no actually, that was never you're point. You're argument was that because it wasn't "proven"
My argument remains that it's still not proven. There are all kinds of arguments both for and against global warming actually happening. Both sides are replete with qualified scientists claims & counterclaims.

How about we make a wager - I say that next year will be colder than this year and you say not so?
 
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