The next tearing down of statues

[80watts]

So historical people statues are being banned/torn down. Mostly because of some involvement that has anything to do with racism. In Canada its John A MacDonald and his association with Canadian Residential Schools. In the US, Statues of Robert E. Lee, a slave owner and defender of the southern slave states.
The MacDonald statues were put up because he was Canada's First Prime Minister, but are being taken down by his involvement with the Residential Schools (used to assimulate the aboringnal people), or more likely that he is now considered a racist.
To any black person in America, anyone putting up a conferderate flag is a racist, because they fought in the American Civil War to maintain the southern states' States Rights, which economy was supported by slaves and their labour.
So for all accounts people are mad (today) that these two people back 100 years ago or more , are now defined by the word racist today. The world was a different place back then. the World is constantly changing and we all should learn from the past.

Are these people any different from the modern ISIS threat, who demolished the ancient city of Nimrod and temples in Palmyra in Syria. Or the Taliban who destroyed the faces of budda on a face cliff in Bamiyan in Afghanistan.

By tearing down these statues of MacDonald and Lee, the people are denying history, saying it never happened (Or they are trying to rewrite it in their own image). Instead they should rededicate the statue with a more modern version of history, telling the whole story.

Both sides of the story, the 5Ws.

On the TV show the Waltons. When Hilter had his bonfire in Germany and burned English and foreign books. The people (Baptists and God fearing people) in John-boys county, got mad and gathered forcefully from german folks (in the county, in America) their German books... John-boy stopped then by grabbing a book (which was in German) and read from it. He got a German resident to tranlate. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". They were burning the bible, which was translated into German.... These God fearing people were burning the words of their own God..... how ironic....

But the stupidity that is happening now is caused by social media...

 

[Gardener]

History belongs in museums to be studied and remembered. Not in public squares to be venerated.
Most confederate statues were erected during the Jim Crow era as a way to reinforce segregation policies. Nothing to celebrate there.
Last time I checked the Confederates lost the war, why do they have statues anyways? Makes no sense. I’ll be happy when they are all gone. Literally makes no difference in my life. Good riddance.

 

[marsvolta]

History belongs in museums to be studied and remembered. Not in public squares to be venerated.
Most confederate statues were erected during the Jim Crow era as a way to reinforce segregation policies. Nothing to celebrate there.
Last time I checked the Confederates lost the war, why do they have statues anyways? Makes no sense. I’ll be happy when they are all gone. Literally makes no difference in my life. Good riddance.

here, here! these statues are not important pieces of architecture or art like the "ancient city of Nimrod and temples in Palmyra in Syria". just about every little shithole town has some mail order statue of somebody. if they are important pieces then put them in a museum. replace them with a tree.

 

[80watts]

When did "Jim Crow" happen in Canada?
You all should read up on the debate on the American Civil War. The south says they went to war because of states rights, and the north went to war because of illegal slavery. The states rights are like Quebecers saying Quebec comes first and Canada second (yes this is an issue in Canada and in Quebec). In reality the north went to war in response to the south's breaking away and its military agression. Free slave states vs Slave State. Its like the US today creating a low oil price, that has sent most of the world's economy on the downswing. Economic warefare. So the south saw no other option but to defend their economy and way of life.

Causes:https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/brief-overview-american-civil-war

If it was fought over the slavery of black people, why did so many white people die?

Slavery is no different then a boss that makes you work overtime and dosen't pay you for it. Slavery is evil. So is racism, although alot of racism is uneducated people perpetuating ideas that are outdated and you can argue these ideas are not logical.

But its actually worse than that, humans want the power over other humans. Its that simple. Human's want to be dominate over other humans; whether that is in war, business or your personal life.

Electra, punishing a person for 1 evil they did in their lifetime, despite whatever good they did, they deserve to be punished. Sounds alot like Christian dogma of original sin, because you are born in sin, you will die and go to hell. But they give you an out card; but by believing in Jesus Christ your Saviour ,you will have eternal life...
People are a mixture of good and evil. The individual gets to choose which comes out.

So Electra you should compare the residential schools to the altarboys, and hockey coaches who abused the kids in their care (the problem is they blamed the institution instead of the individual cause the individuals were dead). The high rate of suicide among the young is because they see their elders, parents in a circling cesspool, and they see no future for themselves. The underlying motto for most first nations "white men caused our problems" ; which is false. They choose to drink alcohol and take drugs. White men didn't force them.

Now the tearing down of statues first started up on defacing, then mobs tearing them down, untill they decided to have city councils take them down.

Again if you don't learn from history , you are doomed to repeat it. Thats a famous quote. Its true. And it shouldn't be left in museums, thats where the kids go for field trips. History should be out in the open, open for everyone to see and all sides depicted.

Again social media strikes again with misinformation and shit to confuse people. John A. MacDonald vs. George Washington (who actually owned slaves), so why isn't poor Georgie boy being crucified.....

People are acting like ostriches, putting their head into the sand, so they won't have to deal with shit....

 

[Shanghai]

Speaking locally, its the same deal with the call for the removal of the Gastown Gassy Jack statue where he married a 12-year old native, she escaped his lecherous drunk-ass clutches and lived until age 90.

There aren't a bunch of masked individuals tearing down Gassy Jack - yet. We can just wait until the next hockey game the Canucks lose the next Vancouver-hosted playoffs, then the riff-raff will use that as an excuse to topple the statue to validate their rioting by piggy-backing onto the noble cause of native subjigation.

One has to backtrack and investigate who commissioned the statue and find out if the full history of the individual was known at the time, and did the community know, or care then.

Follow the logic of toasting historical reminders. If it becomes ok to intentionally "forget" something because of a change in thinking, don't doubt for one second this exact same line of thinking cannot be weaponized and used, as in the example of residential schools - as in, destroy all the buildings and symbols in order to prevent them from serving as a reminder, thinking that simply allowing them to continue to exist is like it is letting bygones be bygones. The powers that be are gambling that precisely that is what will happen as time passes and the past is forgotten.

In the case of the Gassy Jack statue, wouldn't it be more relevant to add a statue of his 12-year old wife who escaped his tyranny and lived until she was 90? If it is truth in symbolism that people want, that would be one idea. Or just plant a nice tree there instead. Maybe not as photogenic for the tourists perhaps.

There are other weird art sculptures that go up at the behest of anonymous city counsellors that need to spend a community art budget and pay some art dude big bucks to advertise their wares, no one is tearing these abominations down (I'm thinking of those stupid concrete tree at Cambie and Marine, and more concrete trees that line other streets - I prefer real trees and people that water and trim them.)

I would be more concerned with the breakdown of infrastructure where cops do nothing to stop these ad hoc tear downs. The destroyers could be out-of-state/area masked hoodlums expecting to get free licence by saying they are attacking racism and native oppression. One can't assume that given a vote, the general public would be fine to give these people the go-ahead to do what they want.

Change happens all the time. There should be safeguards to prevent the powers that from creating rules to protect "their" status quo, so that change cannot occur without their explicit say-so. In effect, innoculating them from the public will.

 

[Andrew69913]

When did "Jim Crow" happen in Canada?
You all should read up on the debate on the American Civil War. The south says they went to war because of states rights, and the north went to war because of illegal slavery. The states rights are like Quebecers saying Quebec comes first and Canada second (yes this is an issue in Canada and in Quebec). In reality the north went to war in response to the south's breaking away and its military agression. Free slave states vs Slave State. Its like the US today creating a low oil price, that has sent most of the world's economy on the downswing. Economic warefare. So the south saw no other option but to defend their economy and way of life.

Causes:https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/brief-overview-american-civil-war

If it was fought over the slavery of black people, why did so many white people die?

Slavery is no different then a boss that makes you work overtime and dosen't pay you for it. Slavery is evil. So is racism, although alot of racism is uneducated people perpetuating ideas that are outdated and you can argue these ideas are not logical.

But its actually worse than that, humans want the power over other humans. Its that simple. Human's want to be dominate over other humans; whether that is in war, business or your personal life.

Electra, punishing a person for 1 evil they did in their lifetime, despite whatever good they did, they deserve to be punished. Sounds alot like Christian dogma of original sin, because you are born in sin, you will die and go to hell. But they give you an out card; but by believing in Jesus Christ your Saviour ,you will have eternal life...
People are a mixture of good and evil. The individual gets to choose which comes out.

So Electra you should compare the residential schools to the altarboys, and hockey coaches who abused the kids in their care (the problem is they blamed the institution instead of the individual cause the individuals were dead). The high rate of suicide among the young is because they see their elders, parents in a circling cesspool, and they see no future for themselves. The underlying motto for most first nations "white men caused our problems" ; which is false. They choose to drink alcohol and take drugs. White men didn't force them.

Now the tearing down of statues first started up on defacing, then mobs tearing them down, untill they decided to have city councils take them down.

Again if you don't learn from history , you are doomed to repeat it. Thats a famous quote. Its true. And it shouldn't be left in museums, thats where the kids go for field trips. History should be out in the open, open for everyone to see and all sides depicted.

Again social media strikes again with misinformation and shit to confuse people. John A. MacDonald vs. George Washington (who actually owned slaves), so why isn't poor Georgie boy being crucified.....

People are acting like ostriches, putting their head into the sand, so they won't have to deal with shit....

Power, synonymous with money, is ALWAYS the motivating factor. Never is, never was, and never will be about color. It's poor vs. rich, the end. The society you live in should be judged on how it treats its poor, most vulnerable, most troubled people, not by how many Air Force 1's you own. Sad

 

[Andrew69913]

Power, synonymous with money, is ALWAYS the motivating factor. Never is, never was, and never will be about color. It's poor vs. rich, the end. The society you live in should be judged on how it treats its poor, most vulnerable, most troubled people, not by how many Air Force 1's you own. Sad

LEST WE FORGET!!

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore."


.......apparently, we have forgotten.

 

[Gardener]

I will say again, statues belong in museums. I’ll cheer when all of them disappear.

 

[too timid]

i'm in favour of erecting statues and demolishing them. Nothing lasts forever nor should it.
The creation, display and/or demolition are a display or barometer for some of societies values. The actions of displaying such items can start dialogue and highlight/educate people (possibly/probably in a different era) to what atrocities may have taken place with the demolition part being similar to burning something in effigy, symbolic punishment for someone or something once celebrated. They maybe able to make you look at it but nobody can make you respect or honour it and it may present an opportunity to communicate what is and isnt currently acceptable and on the otherside it can be cathartic to destroy a physical target. Education is everything but often built on hindsight and fuck ups

 

[Andrew69913]

i'm in favour of erecting statues and demolishing them. Nothing lasts forever nor should it.
The creation, display and/or demolition are a display or barometer for some of societies values. The actions of displaying such items can start dialogue and highlight/educate people (possibly/probably in a different era) to what atrocities may have taken place with the demolition part being similar to burning something in effigy, symbolic punishment for someone or something once celebrated. They maybe able to make you look at it but nobody can make you respect or honour it and it may present an opportunity to communicate what is and isnt currently acceptable and on the otherside it can be cathartic to destroy a physical target. Education is everything but often built on hindsight and fuck ups

So...art reflects life? Who knew? lol I don't care if Picasso himself painted that picture of Hitler, we should burn it!

 

[Lets Review]

Ravens have been tricking humans for centuries, why are totems featuring them still standing?

 

[PierreCoeur]

When was the last time anyone in this forum went up to a statue in a park to find out who it depicts?

For that matter how many times do you think these redneck defenders of statuary actually took a vacation to go see a statue of Robert E Lee?

The fight south of the border is not about the historical significance of some bronze sculpture. It's about the defence of a belief that white christians are losing their majority position in the America that their Great Grandparents enjoyed. An America that was Great before mass immigration altered a way of life of white and Christian dominance.

They fear what America has become and that other white christians are celebrating diversity of race, religion and sexuality. They call those Christian left wing extremists.

That is why Make America Great Again resonates with them and why tearing down statues of old dead racists upsets them. This is all about hatred and fear and not about some insignificant statues are being removed.

I could care less if someone destroys a statue of Sir John A MacDonald. On the other hand I could care less if someone puts a statue of him up someplace.

I think there is an awful lot more we should be doing to right the wrongs our ancestors did to blacks, indigenous, immigrants, homosexuals and others than fight about silly statues. Add our environment to that list

It is time to stop the hate, right the wrongs and forgive the past.

I think seagulls have the right idea for statues in parks. Me I don't give a shit.

 

[Gardener]

When was the last time anyone in this forum went up to a statue in a park to find out who it depicts?

For that matter how many times do you think these redneck defenders of statuary actually took a vacation to go see a statue of Robert E Lee?

The fight south of the border is not about the historical significance of some bronze sculpture. It's about the defence of a belief that white christians are losing their majority position in the America that their Great Grandparents enjoyed. An America that was Great before mass immigration altered a way of life of white and Christian dominance.

They fear what America has become and that other white christians are celebrating diversity of race, religion and sexuality. They call those Christian left wing extremists.

That is why Make America Great Again resonates with them and why tearing down statues of old dead racists upsets them. This is all about hatred and fear and not about some insignificant statues are being removed.

I could care less if someone destroys a statue of Sir John A MacDonald. On the other hand I could care less if someone puts a statue of him up someplace.

I think there is an awful lot more we should be doing to right the wrongs our ancestors did to blacks, indigenous, immigrants, homosexuals and others than fight about silly statues. Add our environment to that list

It is time to stop the hate, right the wrongs and forgive the past.

I think seagulls have the right idea for statues in parks. Me I don't give a shit.

I agree. The whole statue thing is just another culture war issue that the crazy right puts forth as a way to energize their bigoted base. Much like the so called “war on Christmas”.

Ultimately the right has no clear vision for improving society other than trying to inflame it. I have always been a Centre/right voter in Canada, but to see how the right has crumbled into a fringe populist movement is just pathetic.

 

[PierreCoeur]

I agree. The whole statue thing is just another culture war issue that the crazy right puts forth as a way to energize their bigoted base. Much like the so called “war on Christmas”.

Ultimately the right has no clear vision for improving society other than trying to inflame it. I have always been a Centre/right voter in Canada, but to see how the right has crumbled into a fringe populist movement is just pathetic.

That's right. It is the extremists on both sides that have ruined things in society.

My son married an Iranian Girl and at Christmas her Islamic Faith Parents wish me a Merry Christmas and I always reply Happy Hannukah because there is no Islamic holiday at Christmas. We laugh and I either go to her Islamic Parents home for Christmas Dinner or invite them to my place.

 

[80watts]

Fence sitters I'm told are just as bad....
Art through history has been a way to say things that can't be spoken, lest the powers that be silence you!
Defacing a statue is vandalism.
"I think there is an awful lot more we should be doing to right the wrongs our ancestors did to blacks, indigenous, immigrants, homosexuals and others than fight about silly statues. Add our environment to that list" PierreCoeur
PC, really you want to right the wrongs of your ancestors? total bullshit. Your ancestors are dead and so are the people they apparently harmed (judging by todays standards or otherword your ancestors would be turning over in their graves by their standards). As for the environmnet, its fucked, fucked and fucked. So kiss your ass goodbye. Its only a matter of time now.

So they want statues torn down? Why? Perception maybe. Cause you can't go around killing white people, but you can tarnish the people that are dead and can't defend themselves. John A MacDonald's whole life was not about the Residential Schools it was about Confederation and creating Canada (by blaming him for Residential School, his creating Canada comes into question), and Robert E. Lee proved to be a great General (even the north asked him to fight on their side) with less men and equipment and supplies he fought off the industrilized north states longer then the north thougth possible. Today Erin Rommel (German WW2 General) is admired by the west. " German field marshal who became the most popular general at home and gained the open respect of his enemies with his spectacular victories as commander of the Afrika Korps in World War II. " Britannia.com.
It was their skills as generals that most military people hold them up as examples to others. So why is Lee statue being torn down, because he owned slaves. So did George Washington, and Thomas Jefferson. As presidents of the USA, they could of eliminated slaverly. But didn't. George and Thomas's plantations needed slaves to run the economy. With industrialization, the need for slaves for labour was nullified. The south fought for its states rights and it way of life and its economy (which ran on slave labour on the big plantations). So it came to the American Civil War in 1861.

In the states they had emancipation (1862) of the slaves, in 1865 the 13 amendment was passed, In 1965 the Bill of Rights.
IN Canada you have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (1982).
These bills guarentee the rights of blacks, indigenous peoples, homosexual and others (at least in Canada for Citizens).
And people wonder why William Shakespear wanted to kill all the lawyers....
Any Canadian government agency has got to have the politically correct attitude and they enforce it.

The problem today is the backlash from the social media, from leftist propaganda. Partial videos giving one side of the story. Cant say anything about a black criminal that get shot. Its fucken ridiculous how fast people try and shoot you down.

You can never right the wrongs done to the dead. You can only improve in the present for the future of the living.

I think I will put a nice big red swatizka on the back of my jacket and tell everybody I'm buddist.... If you don't understand this statement, I know why you don't understand history and think history is unimportant.

 

[Gardener]

Fence sitters I'm told are just as bad....
Art through history has been a way to say things that can't be spoken, lest the powers that be silence you!
Defacing a statue is vandalism.
"I think there is an awful lot more we should be doing to right the wrongs our ancestors did to blacks, indigenous, immigrants, homosexuals and others than fight about silly statues. Add our environment to that list" PierreCoeur
PC, really you want to right the wrongs of your ancestors? total bullshit. Your ancestors are dead and so are the people they apparently harmed (judging by todays standards or otherword your ancestors would be turning over in their graves by their standards). As for the environmnet, its fucked, fucked and fucked. So kiss your ass goodbye. Its only a matter of time now.

So they want statues torn down? Why? Perception maybe. Cause you can't go around killing white people, but you can tarnish the people that are dead and can't defend themselves. John A MacDonald's whole life was not about the Residential Schools it was about Confederation and creating Canada (by blaming him for Residential School, his creating Canada comes into question), and Robert E. Lee proved to be a great General (even the north asked him to fight on their side) with less men and equipment and supplies he fought off the industrilized north states longer then the north thougth possible. Today Erin Rommel (German WW2 General) is admired by the west. " German field marshal who became the most popular general at home and gained the open respect of his enemies with his spectacular victories as commander of the Afrika Korps in World War II. " Britannia.com.
It was their skills as generals that most military people hold them up as examples to others. So why is Lee statue being torn down, because he owned slaves. So did George Washington, and Thomas Jefferson. As presidents of the USA, they could of eliminated slaverly. But didn't. George and Thomas's plantations needed slaves to run the economy. With industrialization, the need for slaves for labour was nullified. The south fought for its states rights and it way of life and its economy (which ran on slave labour on the big plantations). So it came to the American Civil War in 1861.

In the states they had emancipation (1862) of the slaves, in 1865 the 13 amendment was passed, In 1965 the Bill of Rights.
IN Canada you have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (1982).
These bills guarentee the rights of blacks, indigenous peoples, homosexual and others (at least in Canada for Citizens).
And people wonder why William Shakespear wanted to kill all the lawyers....
Any Canadian government agency has got to have the politically correct attitude and they enforce it.

The problem today is the backlash from the social media, from leftist propaganda. Partial videos giving one side of the story. Cant say anything about a black criminal that get shot. Its fucken ridiculous how fast people try and shoot you down.

You can never right the wrongs done to the dead. You can only improve in the present for the future of the living.

I think I will put a nice big red swatizka on the back of my jacket and tell everybody I'm buddist.... If you don't understand this statement, I know why you don't understand history and think history is unimportant.

History belongs in museums!!!

Have fun culture warring. I’m going for a long bike ride in the sun. You should try it sometime, it’s good for the soul.

 

[happycanuck99]

You can never right the wrongs done to the dead. You can only improve in the present for the future of the living.

I'm not going to suggest I agree with everything else you say (yeah, perhaps I'm a fence-sitter ), but I REALLY LIKE that line!!! We might have to be a little careful applying it, because there would be some subtleties about whether or not we can right the wrongs done to the dead, but the underlying thought is bang-on! Let's work on improving the present and the future.

I think I will put a nice big red swatizka on the back of my jacket and tell everybody I'm buddist.... If you don't understand this statement, I know why you don't understand history and think history is unimportant.

Umm, ok, but would you mind having it left-facing and calling it a "sauwastika"?

 

[happycanuck99]

History belongs in museums!!!

And to those determined (or was that doomed ) to repeat it.