Is there any escape from polarising politics anymore?

[clu]

Seems like everything is left vs. right these days. I know the US is an epicentre for this, but it seems to be bleeding across the border and around the world.

And even if you might choose to ignore the things that rile other people, that in itself is a "sin" and you'll be criticised for letting the right or left have their way.

In the last US election people who were genuinely disillusioned by the mainstream and voted for a third party are now, even two years later, demonised for "throwing away their vote" and "letting this happen". You're with us or you're against us. End of story. No other answers are permitted.

It feels like the whole of western civilisation has gone to ideological war and you have to pick one of two prepackaged sides, wholesale and unreservedly. There's no room for nuance anymore. Snap judgments and sound bites from raging taking heads abound.

The polarisation doesn't show any sign of abating, just a perpetual tug-of-war/see-saw as people dissatisfied with the Powers That Be get more worked up and irate until the balance tips and the two sides swap roles.

Even those in power are no longer interested in reconciliation with those who didn't vote for them once the campaigning is over. I mean literally Donald Trump has been holding campaign rallies two years after he won, so they're never moving beyond partisan rallying mode anymore.

How does balance and cooperation for the common good get restored?

How does this end?

 

[Addison Cortez]

End the economy and start acting like community again

 

[JimDandy]

Seems like everything is left vs. right these days. I know the US is an epicentre for this, but it seems to be bleeding across the border and around the world.

And even if you might choose to ignore the things that rile other people, that in itself is a "sin" and you'll be criticised for letting the right or left have their way.

In the last US election people who were genuinely disillusioned by the mainstream and voted for a third party are now, even two years later, demonised for "throwing away their vote" and "letting this happen". You're with us or you're against us. End of story. No other answers are permitted.

It feels like the whole of western civilisation has gone to ideological war and you have to pick one of two prepackaged sides, wholesale and unreservedly. There's no room for nuance anymore. Snap judgments and sound bites from raging taking heads abound.

The polarisation doesn't show any sign of abating, just a perpetual tug-of-war/see-saw as people dissatisfied with the Powers That Be get more worked up and irate until the balance tips and the two sides swap roles.

Even those in power are no longer interested in reconciliation with those who didn't vote for them once the campaigning is over. I mean literally Donald Trump has been holding campaign rallies two years after he won, so they're never moving beyond partisan rallying mode anymore.

How does balance and cooperation for the common good get restored?

How does this end?

I believe that what you are describing has been discussed at length in several recently published books. They refer to it as "political tribalism". Here is one of those books:

Political Tribes - Group Instinct and the Fate of Nations

Coincidentally, the author, Amy Chua, became famous as the "Tiger Mom" a few years back. It seems she knows more than how to raise children

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2018/mar/01/amy-chua-tiger-mom-writer-book-political-tribes

And here is another recently published book on the same topic:

The Red and the Blue: The 1990s and the Birth of Political Tribalism

JD

 

[westwoody]

Ronald Reagan interrupting with his "I paid for this microphone" lie was a turning point.

Dick Cheney made a press tour where he repeated the same lies night after night on different shows, despite being proven wrong.

Ann Coulter repeating lies after being proven wrong.

People are not held to any standard. Lies are called "alternative facts". Impossible promises are made and when called on them, politicians change the subject. Whataboutism is rampant too. Criticise a Trump policy and someone says whataboutheremails. And the lock her up crap is particularly nauseating.
Ford chanting that about Wynn, while his own brother was a lowlife crackhead.

Teaching debating in school would be a good start. We had debates with very strict rules. Recognise trolling vs proper alternate viewpoints. Dismiss pointless or emotional nonsense. Understand primary sources vs some guy yelling on YouTube.

Long ago debates between wildly different sides were possible, and they could be civil.
Now debates are entertainment and dramatic. Viewers want to be entertained, not informed. If people are yelling at each other that's even better.
Complex problems require complex solutions and serious thought. Impossible with a five second attention span.
Why read a five hundred page book about the Constitution? That's way too much work. People are too lazy to do that. Yelling is easier.

 

[Cock Throppled]

I'm wildly left thinking in some of my views, and conservative (small C) in others.

I don't fit into anyone's chosen category when they want to appeal for my vote. (almost said I don't fit into anyone's box, but that's not true).

The main reason I'm a contrarian towards a lot of political rhetoric is becuase of the incredible hypocrisy.

One side says one thing, but does another, then the other side does the same.

People who decry bullying think it's fine to harrass people at dinner, or steal a hat.

People who cite the rule of law, will assault a demonstrator.

People who want social justice for all, will readily deny it for those who don't agree with them.

People who want free speech will try to shout down anyonesaying something they don't agree with.

I fuckin' hate both sides most of the time.

 

[badbadboy]

Seems like everything is left vs. right these days. I know the US is an epicentre for this, but it seems to be bleeding across the border and around the world.

And even if you might choose to ignore the things that rile other people, that in itself is a "sin" and you'll be criticised for letting the right or left have their way.

In the last US election people who were genuinely disillusioned by the mainstream and voted for a third party are now, even two years later, demonised for "throwing away their vote" and "letting this happen". You're with us or you're against us. End of story. No other answers are permitted.

It feels like the whole of western civilisation has gone to ideological war and you have to pick one of two prepackaged sides, wholesale and unreservedly. There's no room for nuance anymore. Snap judgments and sound bites from raging taking heads abound.

The polarisation doesn't show any sign of abating, just a perpetual tug-of-war/see-saw as people dissatisfied with the Powers That Be get more worked up and irate until the balance tips and the two sides swap roles.

Even those in power are no longer interested in reconciliation with those who didn't vote for them once the campaigning is over. I mean literally Donald Trump has been holding campaign rallies two years after he won, so they're never moving beyond partisan rallying mode anymore.

How does balance and cooperation for the common good get restored?

How does this end?

As we are witnessing around the world democratic governments are having a massive shift politically. Potentially all elections in US, Europe and possibly next in Canada are being corrupted by foreign regimes. The problem is these intrusions are being ignored by #45 and their supporters are showing support for these hostile regimes and causing havoc with relations with Nato, G8 and their traditional allies.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-charges-russian-gru-officers-international-hacking-and-related-influence-and


Both sides of the debate are entrenched with their own media versions of the truth when espousing their views. Seems going to an impartial source like factcheck.org is the last place they view. I find it incredible that some read bot infested sources like reddit, youtube and social media are their go to places for their "alternate facts".

The political right ignores the daily lies spewed by #45. There have been so many gross over exaggerations and outright lies since taking office that eventually these idiots believe them to be true.

http://projects.thestar.com/donald-trump-fact-check/

Political decorum during debates are now history. Shouting down your opponent and generating five second soundbites have won over a civil, logical debate between sides.

 

[nightswhisper]

As we are witnessing around the world democratic governments are having a massive shift politically. Potentially all elections in US, Europe and possibly next in Canada are being corrupted by foreign regimes. The problem is these intrusions are being ignored by #45 and their supporters are showing support for these hostile regimes and causing havoc with relations with Nato, G8 and their traditional allies.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-charges-russian-gru-officers-international-hacking-and-related-influence-and


Both sides of the debate are entrenched with their own media versions of the truth when espousing their views. Seems going to an impartial source like factcheck.org is the last place they view. I find it incredible that some read bot infested sources like reddit, youtube and social media are their go to places for their "alternate facts".

The political right ignores the daily lies spewed by #45. There have been so many gross over exaggerations and outright lies since taking office that eventually these idiots believe them to be true.

http://projects.thestar.com/donald-trump-fact-check/

Political decorum during debates are now history. Shouting down your opponent and generating five second soundbites have won over a civil, logical debate between sides.

You say that as if the political left does not eschew identity politics, race wars, militant progressivism or politicized science.

Your type of sentiment is exactly the type of behaviour OP is talking about. No amount of fact checking or quoting secondary sources will help if you can't draw conclusions yourself.

 

[Amerix]

The left wants to control everyone's wallet, and the right wants to control everyone's bodies. Both sides want to milk as much money as they can from the few people left who go to work every day to pay for their billionaire puppet masters to buy more yachts and private jets and invade a few more countries.

There just isn't a lot left to agree on.

 

[badbadboy]

You say that as if the political left does not eschew identity politics, race wars, militant progressivism or politicized science.

Your type of sentiment is exactly the type of behaviour OP is talking about. No amount of fact checking or quoting secondary sources will help if you can't draw conclusions yourself.

NO I didn't. I used the current Alt Facts as an example only.

The Left has their own version of current events which I am not in line with either.

For simple expediency I used the most obvious examples in support of my statement.

Fact checking is important and to say people can draw their own conclusions is the key part of the problem. Go research on factcheck.org whenever you need to check accuracy of quotes etc.

Try posting some links in support of your own statements for a change. Otherwise its just some guy on the internet like Reddit with an opinion.

 

[nightswhisper]

NO I didn't. I used the current Alt Facts as an example only.

The Left has their own version of current events which I am not in line with either.

For simple expediency I used the most obvious examples in support of my statement.

Fact checking is important and to say people can draw their own conclusions is the key part of the problem. Go research on factcheck.org whenever you need to check accuracy of quotes etc.

Try posting some links in support of your own statements for a change. Otherwise its just some guy on the internet like Reddit with an opinion.

Posting secondary sources doesn't make you any more correct. A right winger posting right wing sources doesn't convince anyone that he's right - it just begets more hostility.

One should be smart or worldly enough to know sites like Factcheck, like all other non partisan sites at best analyze statements at face value with no regard for extenuating circumstances.

Go read and watch some Noam Chomsky, Malthus, or Bertrand Russell instead.

 

[badbadboy]

Posting secondary sources doesn't make you any more correct. A right winger posting right wing sources doesn't convince anyone that he's right - it just begets more hostility.

One should be smart or worldly enough to know sites like Factcheck, like all other non partisan sites at best analyze statements at face value with no regard for extenuating circumstances.

Go read and watch some Noam Chomsky, Malthus, or Bertrand Russell instead.

Facts speak volumes no matter the extenuating situations at that moment in history. Facts are facts no matter how the story is told.

Try reading this now closed thread to see how off the wall you are.

Making incorrect statements with zero back up were so easy to debate with real facts. You just made stuff up as you went along in that thread.

https://perb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?257294-Trump-s-off-the-record-comment-derails-NAFTA-negotiation&p=1911594&viewfull=1#post1911594

 

[nightswhisper]

Seems like everything is left vs. right these days. I know the US is an epicentre for this, but it seems to be bleeding across the border and around the world.

And even if you might choose to ignore the things that rile other people, that in itself is a "sin" and you'll be criticised for letting the right or left have their way.

In the last US election people who were genuinely disillusioned by the mainstream and voted for a third party are now, even two years later, demonised for "throwing away their vote" and "letting this happen". You're with us or you're against us. End of story. No other answers are permitted.

It feels like the whole of western civilisation has gone to ideological war and you have to pick one of two prepackaged sides, wholesale and unreservedly. There's no room for nuance anymore. Snap judgments and sound bites from raging taking heads abound.

The polarisation doesn't show any sign of abating, just a perpetual tug-of-war/see-saw as people dissatisfied with the Powers That Be get more worked up and irate until the balance tips and the two sides swap roles.

Even those in power are no longer interested in reconciliation with those who didn't vote for them once the campaigning is over. I mean literally Donald Trump has been holding campaign rallies two years after he won, so they're never moving beyond partisan rallying mode anymore.

How does balance and cooperation for the common good get restored?

How does this end?

People polarise politics because the average voter assumes what is said to be true rather than what is implied to be true. People do not seek out tacit information or knowledge. A politician promising to make a certain change doesn't mean he'll actually do it - he promises changes to get elected. There's a very large gap between being elected and delivering his promises.

The average career politician or businessman takes 20 - 40 years to get to where they want. For them, stability and maintaining their gains is everything. Whatever they promise is irrelevant, because if they fear their career might be endangered, they will jump ship on all previous promises.

There are tacit things that will never be spoken for in any given career: Police won't sting criminal gangs unless innocent civilians are killed. Car salesman will never tell you they are selling unnecessary warranty. Career politicians will never tell you they will lie to get elected.

But the fact is, it's because so many things are implied or never spoken for that the masses will take sides and vote, and this is a great thing to have in a democratic state. If everyone knew the truth, no one would ever vote again. People enjoy being lied to and deceived - ignorance is bliss.

Democracy in America (and by some extension, Canada) is a failing institution - It has become an oligarchic plutocracy where few powerful entities control vast amounts of resources and information. Democracy was never supposed to be about mass franchise - it was meant to be exclusively for property owners.

 

[nightswhisper]

Facts speak volumes no matter the extenuating situations at that moment in history. Facts are facts no matter how the story is told.

Not all facts can be proven with objective matters, and almost all facts require interpretation. At any given history in time, a set of facts will have different interpretations or jurisprudence.

Fact: Earth was flat.

Fact: Jews were an inferior race.

Fact: We were products of intelligent design.

Fact: Dinosaurs had scales.

Facts are neither true, false, nor concrete. They are subject to change give relative conditions and point of view.

Try reading this now closed thread to see how off the wall you are.

Making incorrect statements with zero back up were so easy to debate with real facts. You just made stuff up as you went along in that thread.

https://perb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?257294-Trump-s-off-the-record-comment-derails-NAFTA-negotiation&p=1911594&viewfull=1#post1911594

What makes you think quoted secondary sources don't have an agenda, especially news sites backed by advertising revenue and owned by private corporations? What makes you think Wikipedia is an accurate presentation of facts which may or may not be quoting other flawed secondary sources? Least of all, most people don't / can't read dry science papers, or are interested in going to a STATSCAN office and making a FOI/ATI request on trade, or speaking to a GAC employee on the current state of international affairs, or spending thousands and attending film industry events and festivals to speak with professionals. Primary sources are an intellectual luxury these days.

In what world does sitting on a forum and refuting your wall of quotes with my wall of quotes seem like a productive use of time? I have no desire to convince strangers out of their views, especially if they only desire argumentative victory. Proving someone wrong on an escort review board isn't a personal accomplishment that will allow me to make more money or fuck more women.

Having a space to express your opinions and statements is great and entertaining until you're just subscribing to the same plague of our generation that OP has mentioned - Polarised politics.

 

[rlock]

Short answer: No, not if things stay the way it is now.

Longer answer: "Left" and "right" are a lie that's only real because acting that way makes it self-fulfilling - a convenient mindset for politcal actors and media outlets to dumb-down and simplify the public's choices. Complexity bothers the media, and political free choice bothers the mainstream politicians. News flash: BTW anglo and anglo-influenced countries tend to be this way, with only one axis of issues and two political camps. In other places, it's more complex, and usually the voting system is different, so it doesn't force them towards either Box A or Box B. Who the fuck says these issues even go together in the ways that the "Left" and "Right" arrange them? Most normal people don't think that way. They have decided their own beliefs about each issue, and don't follow some Team Red or Team Blue playbook. But some people are the sort who never think for themselves - if their "side" says to believe something, or be offended about something, or attack something, they do. These are the kind of people who are ultra-partisans and trolls, talking about shit they really know nothing about. They don't really want to know if something is right or wrong - they just follow the team playbook and open their mouths and spew sewage like a broken pipe. The partisan goons always think they can have it all their own way, and fuck everyone else. They (or rather their masters), are greedy for power, and want to hold power alone, no matter the cost. The internet just amplifies it, giving every dumb fuck with a loony theory a chance to act like a big shot, in a place where facts don't matter as much as attention.

Polarization is a problem? Lack of real political choice, or all the choices sound unpalatable? Sick of wasting your vote, or holding your nose to vote strategically for someone you don't really want? Tired of always seeing a minority faction force their agenda on a majority who never wanted it? Get rid of First Past The Post.
BC residents have a chance to strike FPTP dead, and it would be the best thing for us, really. Not an instant magical cure for legions of partisan goons, but at least if FPTP was replaced by proportional representation, people would be able to choose a party they actually want instead of voting just to stop one that they despise. And after the election, the government would have to answer to an actual majority of voters, instead of just imposing policies that make their own goons happy, and everyone else miserable. Would make them think twice about how they act and what they do, since they can't just play to their own base anymore.

 

[clu]

rlock: got to agree with you on FPTP. Wish the Liberals had stuck to their promise (ha) but as soon as they got in they forgot that they got there with the help of opposing parties that threw their support behind them solely because of the promise of proportional representation. That's not going to happen again, but they think they got in solely on their own charms and can do it again.

I hope proportional representation wins in BC, but I fear what happens federally in 2019 after the Liberals let their win go to their heads and blew the one chance to make it right. They won't be getting endorsements from NDP and Green this time to boost their numbers.

 

[80watts]

Polarizing views. Well first they should separate their religion from their state.