Reversing Roe

[80watts]

This was a interesting documentary on Netflix.

Its about the US Supreme Court decision in 1973: Roe vs. Wade

Its about the right for a woman to have an abortion.

What I did notice in the documentary was:

1. Church and State aren't separate in the US,
2. Its about men telling women what they can and cannot do,
3. Its the only medical procedure that the US states are legislating (telling how doctors -when, what, where and why and how abortions are conducted)
4. Its about right of a women on what she does to her body.

What I learnt in the documentary was how far the religious community would go to get their say in politics, how politicians use abortions to get the vote from the religious communities. The PROLIFE people are making it harder for women to get an abortion, either by waiting times, you need to get an ultrasound and see the fetus on the screen (to me this is a scare tactic- see the heartbeat, you are now commiting murder, which I think is pychological warfare). The reduction in PlanParenthood bugets (which don't go to abortions at all, but to sex education and prevention of pregnancies) from state legislatures. To be a Republican canidate for any election, you have to lean towards PROLIFE.

When I was in high school, my church wanted me to sign a petition to support PROLIFE here in Canada. I signed it, mostly because that was the churches position on abortion. I looked back and see it was a brainwashing exercise to get political gain.

In Freakanomics the authour uses Roe vs Wade as the major contributing factor in absent/drop of crime in the mid 80s. Ever since the 50s the crime rate was climbing steady and it was predicted that by the mid 80s the crime would be at a all time high. But in the mid 80s the crime rate dropped? The authour goes on to how certain parts of society were trying to take the credit for the drop in the crime rate. There was extra policing, Neighbourhood Watch, Crime prevention lectures in school etc. Maybe it was 2 or 3 or a combination of these that contributed to the drop in the crime rate; but not one could individually account for the drop in the crime rate. The author came up with a very unique and totally shocking conclusion, very different but was alot more logical. The people that would commit those crimes were not there, cause they were never born. Roe vs. Wade where the woman had the right to get an abortion. (Alot had to do with poor teenagers that got abortions and went on to school and careers, instead of having a kid)

What really surprises me is the misconception of rights. Legal rights don't appear until the fetus is born. That person can't vote till they are 18 (depends on state). This fetus won't become a voter for many years to come....

So logically if the courts give rights to fetus over their mothers' rights, then that is in my opinion an act of slavery. The state has enslaved the mother to give birth to the fetus...

So when Roe vs. Wade is overturned in the US, 18 years from now it will be the start of very big crime wave, meanwhile forcing young women to have babies they are not prepared to deal with, or can't afford to have.

But what will really be Karma is for the Republican President to get a porn star pregnant and she can't get an abortion.... Kinda like that Republican senator who asked his lover to get an abortion... (he was married).... anything for a vote....

 

[westwoody]

Kavanaugh will vote against Roe. He played dumb on abortion questions.
Reproductive rights had a huge societal impact as you suggest.
They certainly improved the upward mobility of women.

 

[masterblaster]

This was a interesting documentary on Netflix.

Its about the US Supreme Court decision in 1973: Roe vs. Wade

Its about the right for a woman to have an abortion.

What I did notice in the documentary was:

1. Church and State aren't separate in the US,
2. Its about men telling women what they can and cannot do,
3. Its the only medical procedure that the US states are legislating (telling how doctors -when, what, where and why and how abortions are conducted)
4. Its about right of a women on what she does to her body.

What I learnt in the documentary was how far the religious community would go to get their say in politics, how politicians use abortions to get the vote from the religious communities. The PROLIFE people are making it harder for women to get an abortion, either by waiting times, you need to get an ultrasound and see the fetus on the screen (to me this is a scare tactic- see the heartbeat, you are now commiting murder, which I think is pychological warfare). The reduction in PlanParenthood bugets (which don't go to abortions at all, but to sex educated tion and prevention of pregnancies) from state legislatures. To be a Republican canidate for any election, you have to lean towards PROLIFE.

When I was in high school, my church wanted me to sign a petition to support PROLIFE here in Canada. I signed it, mostly because that was the churches position on abortion. I looked back and see it was a brainwashing exercise to get political gain.

In Freakanomics the authour uses Roe vs Wade as the major contributing factor in absent/drop of crime in the mid 80s. Ever since the 50s the crime rate was climbing steady and it was predicted that by the mid 80s the crime would be at a all time high. But in the mid 80s the crime rate dropped? The authour goes on to how certain parts of society were trying to take the credit for the drop in the crime rate. There was extra policing, Neighbourhood Watch, Crime prevention lectures in school etc. Maybe it was 2 or 3 or a combination of these that contributed to the drop in the crime rate; but not one could individually account for the drop in the crime rate. The author came up with a very unique and totally shocking conclusion, very different but was alot more logical. The people that would commit those crimes were not there, cause they were never born. Roe vs. Wade where the woman had the right to get an abortion. (Alot had to do with poor teenagers that got abortions and went on to school and careers, instead of having a be
What really surprises me is the misconception of rights. Legal rights don't appear until the fetus is born. That person can't vote till they are 18 (depends on state). This fetus won't become a voter for many years to come....

So logically if the courts give rights to fetus over their mothers' rights, then that is in my opinion an act of slavery. The state has enslaved the mother to give birth to the fetus...

So when Roe vs. Wade is overturned in the US, 18 years from now it will be the start of very big crime wave, meanwhile forcing young women to have babies they are not prepared to deal with, or can't afford to have.

But what will really be Karma is for the Republican President to get a porn star pregnant and she can't get an abortion.... Kinda like that Republican senator who asked his lover to get an abortion... (he was married).... anything for a vote....

I remember hearing somewhere about the theory that abortions caused a drop in the crime rate. It was disproven if memory serves me correctly.

 

[giver_snoot]

The religious types go crazy at the thought of sharia law, not thinking that they simply want a Christian version.

 

[jgg]

I remember hearing somewhere about the theory that abortions caused a drop in the crime rate. It was disproven if memory serves me correctly.

That may have been the result of legalizing abortion. No longer a crime so the rate goes down.

 

[Ms Erica Phoenix]

These people are not pro life. They are pro forced birth. They don't give a damn about the children that result from the pregnancy they protected so ardently. They don't care that carrying a pregnancy to term might mean a woman risks her own life. If they reverse Roe, and abortion becomes illegal across the US again, women WILL die, will be forced to carry nonviable pregnancies to term, & from botched illegal abortions. That ought not to happen in North America in the 21st Century.

 

[badbadboy]

Unless the Dems can get Kavanaugh booted or delayed til after the midterms, this is a done deal.

I can't grasp how awful this Administration, Congress and Senate have become. I haven't liked any Republican presidency but even Nixon or Bush Jr seem like a good presidents compared to #45.

 

[80watts]

The documentary does cover abit about the republician cause for Prolife (or the Right to Life movement) ever since Ronald Reagan and the choices Republican Presidents have made to the supreme court. Ever since Roe vs. Wade (1973) the Right to Life people have slowly been chipping around the issue of a woman's right to chose.
I wonder if Roe vs Wade when it is overturned, does the US turns into the "Handmaiden's Tale" ?

 

[vanperb]

These people are not pro life. They are pro forced birth. They don't give a damn about the children that result from the pregnancy they protected so ardently. They don't care that carrying a pregnancy to term might mean a woman risks her own life. If they reverse Roe, and abortion becomes illegal across the US again, women WILL die, will be forced to carry nonviable pregnancies to term, & from botched illegal abortions. That ought not to happen in North America in the 21st Century.

You can expect Abortion Tourism to Canada to be a thing for those who can afford it. Much like what happened with Irish women who travel to the UK. The thing is they recently completely over turned that law with a referendum. It was actually quite impressive to see. Women travelling from all over the world to go back home to vote on this issue. The Republic of Ireland voted overwhelmingly to overturn the abortion ban by 66.4% to 33.6%.

Now the US want to go back. I swear it's like watching old men with fingers in their ears screaming how the world was a better place when they were young, and forcibly trying to yank the world back in time.

 

[westwoody]

I was in Ireland in the 80s.
The Catholics had so much power it was illegal to sell condoms.
Richard Branson started selling them in his Virgin Records stores and it was scandalous.

The USA is well on its way to Handmaid's Tale already.
The middle class will soon disappear.
Trump et al have slashed their own taxes and created a trillion dollar deficit. They say the government can no longer afford social programs like pensions, education and health care. That is a crisis created to benefit the rich. Workers will be desperate to work at lower wages and without benefits, which suits the ruling class just fine.

 

[masterblaster]

That may have been the result of legalizing abortion. No longer a crime so the rate goes down.

You're missing the point. Theory was that abortions got rid of those who would commit crimes. As I said I believe that theory was disproven,

 

[westwoody]

Trump is flagrantly disregarding the Constitution he swore to protect.

Before the last election he would not commit to honouring the results unless he won. If he loses in 2020 he might declare a state of emergency and annull the vote.
He constantly attacks the federal law enforcement community, the intelligence community and the judiciary. He is trying to discredit them on the off chance the FBI and US Marshals come banging on his door with an arrest warrant.

All three branches are equal and counterbalance each other. Hamilton and Madison both explain this in The Federalist.
Trump ignores this and thinks he is king.
He has said he above the law in speeches and his idiot followers eat it up. But he is completely wrong. It is clearly written out in the Constitution that the president is liable to charges after impeachment.
The ignorance his followers display is really disturbing. They do not have a clue how their own government works, or how it was designed specifically to avoid someone like Trump seizing power.

 

[nwtl]

In my mind, this stuff is clear, and not as complicated as it is in law, religion, morality and society. But the point is, the problem and also benefit of a free society being that people's minds don't always agree and see things clearly. That is the very point. Your mind, and mine, are not always going to arrive at the same conclusion. This free society is not the most efficient a system, but it is the best system we know that can certainly prevent tyranny, so far in human civilization. A dictatorship is certainly much more efficient, but it may make very efficient certain goals and values that most member of society could disagree with, it is very likely to fall into corruption.

The decision to have the right to abort should not have anything to do with statistics on crime rate, religion, etc. These are all just arguments for or against. The answer is simply what a society should deem appropriate - there is no absolute wrong or right, in the complex issue of abortion, if there was, it would have been behind us as an intelligent species, long ago. It is not due to Trump being evil, or Kavanaugh having the wrong mindset.

We have forgotten that a free society is not a perfect society, it does not protect and maintain the rights of every single member every single time. It is rather, a continuous negotiation amongst the members, of rights and responsibilities of all. It is never black and white. The vague line at which your freedom dissipates, another's begins.

 

[badbadboy]

In my mind, this stuff is clear, and not as complicated as it is in law, religion, morality and society. But the point is, the problem and also benefit of a free society being that people's minds don't always agree and see things clearly. That is the very point. Your mind, and mine, are not always going to arrive at the same conclusion. This free society is not the most efficient a system, but it is the best system we know that can certainly prevent tyranny, so far in human civilization. A dictatorship is certainly much more efficient, but it may make very efficient certain goals and values that most member of society could disagree with, it is very likely to fall into corruption.

The decision to have the right to abort should not have anything to do with statistics on crime rate, religion, etc. These are all just arguments for or against. The answer is simply what a society should deem appropriate - there is no absolute wrong or right, in the complex issue of abortion, if there was, it would have been behind us as an intelligent species, long ago. It is not due to Trump being evil, or Kavanaugh having the wrong mindset.

We have forgotten that a free society is not a perfect society, it does not protect and maintain the rights of every single member every single time. It is rather, a continuous negotiation amongst the members, of rights and responsibilities of all. It is never black and white. The vague line at which your freedom dissipates, another's begins.

One thing I am not picking up in your post is a person has the right to take whatever measures in their own personal health including aborting a fetus. It's sounding like society can choose on behalf of the fetus? If it's that's the way you think, ok it's your choice. Their Constitution does state individual rights and freedoms and not the governments version of the individuals rights and freedoms.

Also in a free society, a governing body does not have the right to decline or delay services that were made by an individual for their own personal well being. The lack of logic that life begins at conception is key to this argument. It has been argued many times with the same result; life begins at birth and at that point the newborn has full rights as any other citizen.

The biggest problem I am seeing south of the border is there is zero separation between Religion and State. A party wants to get elected, they have to pander to their religious base amongst several specific interests that get the Republicans elected.

This whole charade for a new Supreme Court Judge is crazy. Obama nominated Merrick Garland and the Senate wouldn't even have a hearing. Now #45 has nominated two judges in less than 2 years.

Kavanaugh had his finger prints on a few key pieces of history such as Guantanamo Bay and Enhanced techniques for interviewing detainees aka water boarding and other forms of torture. He was the lead legal council in the White House during the Bush administration.

Now with Kavanaugh, the Republicans denied the Democrat Senators 90% of the records of Kavanaugh's involvement.

Some democracy.

 

[nightswhisper]

Very few countries are truly democratic. The US is an oligarchic plutocracy.

The illusions of democracy is far more important than the physical democratic state.

There are powers that be far beyond the US president who have interests in maintaining their agendae and status quo.

 

[JimDandy]

The problem I have with the right wing hypocrites in the USA is that they want to prevent an impoverished mom from aborting her fetus but will not lift a finger to feed, cloth and provide health care for said fetus after it is born. To me, that makes no sense at all. Instead of spending huge amounts of $$$ trying to prevent abortions, instead use that same $$$ to provide the necessities of life to poor children that need it.

JD

 

[storm rider]

Personally I am PRO CHOICE....in my mindset it is up to the woman to decide and any bible thumper who wishes to protest outside of a clinic and harass people should be given a heavy sack beating(a heavy sack beating is 6 hockey pucks in a burlap sack swung with furious anger) and I have no tolerance at all for politicians trying to change the current laws.

Stephen Harper dealt with a back bench MP who passed a Private Members Bill in the House of Commons to try and change the definition of a fetus.He used a WHIPPED vote to defeat the Bill that was proposed BY a Conservative MP.In doing so he said that the current abortion laws would not be changed.....this was of course part of his "hidden agenda" as per the media in Canada(I wont even bother to cal them Leftist now) and after he WHIPPED the caucus to vote the bill down he was called a "control freak" by the media because he used a WHIPPED vote to kill a Bill that was for the most part a bad one and pandered to extreme right wing Conservatives.

SR

 

[badbadboy]

Personally I am PRO CHOICE....in my mindset it is up to the woman to decide and any bible thumper who wishes to protest outside of a clinic and harass people should be given a heavy sack beating(a heavy sack beating is 6 hockey pucks in a burlap sack swung with furious anger) and I have no tolerance at all for politicians trying to change the current laws.

Stephen Harper dealt with a back bench MP who passed a Private Members Bill in the House of Commons to try and change the definition of a fetus.He used a WHIPPED vote to defeat the Bill that was proposed BY a Conservative MP.In doing so he said that the current abortion laws would not be changed.....this was of course part of his "hidden agenda" as per the media in Canada(I wont even bother to cal them Leftist now) and after he WHIPPED the caucus to vote the bill down he was called a "control freak" by the media because he used a WHIPPED vote to kill a Bill that was for the most part a bad one and pandered to extreme right wing Conservatives.

SR

Haven't you heard? Harper is gone.

There is now a Harper 2.0 aka Andrew Scheer devote Catholic and acknowledged Anti Abortionist.

https://www.leadnow.ca/andrew-scheer-blog/

 

[westwoody]

There was a motion to debate abortion at the recent Conservative convention.
There was no debate. They know it could cost them votes.
How they act in a parliamentary majority is worrisome. Scheer is too close to the religious wackos.

 

[Ms Erica Phoenix]

The key point in the questions directed at Kavanaugh regarding Roe was scored by Kamala Harris, & it's worth noting. She asked him if he could name a single piece of legislation that attempts to control what a man can do with his own body. Of course, he was unable to do so.

What is fascinating to me is that even in this debate on this board, the people talking the most about abortion rights are still MEN. I know that for Canadian women younger than Me, it's just simply something they've never felt they needed to worry about. Abortion on demand has been the rule of law in Canada foe several decades...but I remember when it was not such a foregone conclusion, and doctors who provided them were prosecuted, persecuted & even killed.

I never had to get an abortion thank God, but I have provided rides to & from the clinic & at home aftercare for a friend that did. It was her only choice, as she saw it at the time & a place am sure she made the right decision, but it was not a small matter. I knew a dozen girls that got pregnant in high school (Catholic school...) & had babies because abortion is a mortal sin! :eyeroll: I have never & will never vote for any candidate that presumes to tell women what they cannot do with their own bodies!