Carman Fox

Sexual Harassment - You Have To Be Careful.

Jemue

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Sep 28, 2013
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I find it humorous how no one can recognize some male responsibility in any of these scenarios. Women take a compliment wrong. Women take a joke wrong. Here's a different perspective. Perhaps privileged and entitled males in positions of power are simply guilty of misconduct and are simply not satisfied with the economic and political advantages they have in life. They now (or always have) must take their privilege and entitlement expectations to include inappropriate and predatory advances on women they work with as an additional benefit owed.
Ah yes ... so your logic is that all males are predators and guilt until proven more guilty. Also that all (white heterosexual) ) males are infinity more privileged that everyone all the time and in every scenario.

Thankfully that BS feminist attitude is known to be wrong by the vast majority of people who don't play hate driven identity politics with every situation just so they can label everyone as a victim or a predator.

They now (or always have) must take their privilege and entitlement expectations to include inappropriate and predatory advances on women they work with as an additional benefit owed.
Projecting much ? ..... go get some real help.
 

clu

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Oct 3, 2010
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Ah yes ... so your logic is that all males are predators and guilt until proven more guilty. Also that all (white heterosexual) ) males are infinity more privileged that everyone all the time and in every scenario.
Hyperbole much?

Look dude, some guys in power or advantage, through accident of birth or ascension of the corporate ladder, nonetheless feel entitled to more than they are. If you think someone like Harvey Weinstein is being unjustly punished, then we may be too far apart on our perception of decency to have a conversation.

But as a white male in a position of power myself, I realise I have the ability to make things happen (outside the reasonable scope of my job as boss) that others may not appreciate, but all it takes is a little empathy and we can all play fine together. It's not such a hard concept.

I don't understand how the recent trend of holding accountable guys who take ridiculous advantage of the situation is being blown up in the minds of some to become "it's a witch hunt against all males" or some form of toxic anti-men hate. Or do you think taking away one's "right" to intimidate an employee into watching you jerk off is society gone mad?
 

Jemue

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Hyperbole much?

Look dude, some guys in power or advantage, through accident of birth or ascension of the corporate ladder, nonetheless feel entitled to more than they are. If you think someone like Harvey Weinstein is being unjustly punished, then we may be too far apart on our perception of decency to have a conversation.
Projecting much ? Where did I say that.

But as a white male in a position of power myself, I realise I have the ability to make things happen (outside the reasonable scope of my job as boss) that others may not appreciate, but all it takes is a little empathy and we can all play fine together. It's not such a hard concept.
Just because you've internalise the shame and guilt of others, that's up to you. I'm not guilty of others crimes because "all white men" ... {insert what every the usual feminist claim is here**. If you want to take on that, that's up to you.

I don't understand how the recent trend of holding accountable guys who take ridiculous advantage of the situation is being blown up in the minds of some to become "it's a witch hunt against all males" or some form of toxic anti-men hate.
Because it has .... just because you've not experienced it yet, or are in denial about it because you've internalised the guilt / shame / rhetoric / etc, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Or do you think taking away one's "right" to intimidate an employee into watching you jerk off is society gone mad?
Again, likely projecting and out of context. I never said that, so I'm not going to answer your straw man. Though it's easy to point out the vengeance that is poorly disguised as "equality" in a lot of societies, especially in this part of the world.
 

Cock Throppled

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Oct 1, 2003
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hmm... so, you're not in agreement that north american culture is predominately dominated by white male culture? and that, due to demographics those dynamics are shifting? i'm not worried about it... but there appear to be a bunch of tiki torch carrying types that are.

but again, thats probably a better discussed in another thread.

the topic of this thread is women changing the dynamic in a society dominated by male culture (i've excluded the "white" part here as that just enrages the anti-immigrant culture war pawns). people started stating that it was all due to "political correctness" and i'm asking. is there something wrong with women not wanting to be cat called on the street? groped in the office? not considered for a promotion because shes a woman?
Of course NA culture is dominated by white males, and the culture is changing. I worked for years in an industry dominated by females. I regularly had female bosses, and most of my colleagues were female. I'm not worried about women taking on male roles where they're able.

But what has groping or cat-calling got to do with being politically correct? It's called being a decent human being and showing respect.

Political correctness usually involves bending over backwards to APPEAR not to have any bias against anything not white, male or involving religion - no matter how insincere.
 

MissingOne

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Jan 2, 2006
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Hyperbole much?

Look dude, some guys in power or advantage, through accident of birth or ascension of the corporate ladder, nonetheless feel entitled to more than they are. If you think someone like Harvey Weinstein is being unjustly punished, then we may be too far apart on our perception of decency to have a conversation.

But as a white male in a position of power myself, I realise I have the ability to make things happen (outside the reasonable scope of my job as boss) that others may not appreciate, but all it takes is a little empathy and we can all play fine together. It's not such a hard concept.

I don't understand how the recent trend of holding accountable guys who take ridiculous advantage of the situation is being blown up in the minds of some to become "it's a witch hunt against all males" or some form of toxic anti-men hate. Or do you think taking away one's "right" to intimidate an employee into watching you jerk off is society gone mad?
Actually, as a white male in a position of power, you are probably a bit shielded from what ordinary, less powerful men experience out here in the real world.

As a not particularly powerful, old white male, I find that women feel very free to casually dismiss me with the use of "old white male" in a pejorative sense. I understand that what I experience is nothing like as pervasive or demeaning as what women have experienced, or what people of colour have experienced. I will survive it. But, it's there, and it seems to be increasingly socially acceptable. Not long ago, I was serving coffee and a snack to some women friends in my own kitchen, when one of them piped up with the "old white men" complaint. She was taken aback and momentarily confused when I pointed out that I am an old white male. Then she recovered with "Oh, I didn't mean you of course." Yeah, right. Try that with a black person, or a woman.
 

Jemue

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Actually, as a white male in a position of power, you are probably a bit shielded from what ordinary, less powerful men experience out here in the real world.
[...] Yeah, right. Try that with a black person, or a woman.
Indeed, I experience that regularly.

I'm not a "power full" person at all, and no where near the levels that "white hetro males" get attacked for being. Though I observe a lot of powerful white men who are realising their own ignorance and lack of humility - while guilty of no actual crime - internalising the shame put on them, then in turn attacking other white men and judging them (see previous posts....). Which is just classic projection and externalising of self contempt played out on others.
 

clu

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Oct 3, 2010
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Projecting much ? Where did I say that.
Never said you did. I said "if" because I wanted to determine if that was not true to at least establish some common ground.

Just because you've internalise the shame and guilt of others, that's up to you. I'm not guilty of others crimes because "all white men" ... {insert what every the usual feminist claim is here**. If you want to take on that, that's up to you.
Where did I say that? Statistically white men are in power. I'm a white man. But come on... power corrupts. It's nothing specific about being white and male.

Can you stop freaking out for a second and have a reasonable conversation?

Two examples of that (happen to be white male, but again, statistics): Trump promises to drain the swamp and fight for the people instead of self-interest like career politicians. He does the same thing. Trudeau says he's bringing power and unity back to the people with a fairer voting system, but once they're in power it's like "naw this is good".

I'm not a self-hating white male. I just see a lot of people get douchy when they get in power. "Power has its privileges" is a well known saying, and it didn't come from some PC persecution fantasy. Just really think about whether that motto is saying the right or wrong thing and you're half way there.

Because it has .... just because you've not experienced it yet, or are in denial about it because you've internalised the guilt / shame / rhetoric / etc, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
For someone who has twice in a row accused others of projecting you certainly do a lot of it.

And taking someone saying "[self-]entitled" men of power and blowing that out to think he said "all men" doesn't have a sturdy basis for accusing others of creating a straw man argument.

The logic is this: Weinstein led to this trend, this trend led to this conversation. So how did we get from Weinstein to us all being in danger of our careers and lives ruined for saying "nice outfit"?

Anyway, what are you saying? That false accusations happen? Sure they do. But my point is that these high profile cases in the media that spurred this thread and are held as a beacon of a changing tide are hardly grey area examples of innocent gestures gone horribly wrong.
 

Damaged

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...people started stating that it was all due to "political correctness" and i'm asking. is there something wrong with women not wanting to be cat called on the street? groped in the office? not considered for a promotion because shes a woman?
I like how you twisted the argument so that if you are against Political Correctness you must support Women being groped in the office or cat called on the street.

...Or do you think taking away one's "right" to intimidate an employee into watching you jerk off is society gone mad?
I failed to see where Louis CK intimidated any employee into watching him jerk off. From what I've read he would ask the person before he did it. In the case of the 2 fellow comedians they stayed and watched his whole performance. Why not just say sorry, I'm not into that and leave? Instead they went into his hotel room and watched. Then years later complain about it. For the record I don't feel his actions were good. He's a little creepy in my books but I also don't think he should be burned on a stake either.
 

Jemue

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Sep 28, 2013
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Where did I say that? Statistically white men are in power. I'm a white man. But come on... power corrupts. It's nothing specific about being white and male.
Ah yes "statistically" .... so avoiding saying all, but implying it because you fit into that group?

Can you stop freaking out for a second and have a reasonable conversation?
So you want me to ignore the seriousness of it and how it effects me, because that dosen't suit you ? No.

Two examples of that (happen to be white male, but again, statistics): Trump promises to drain the swamp and fight for the people instead of self-interest like career politicians. He does the same thing. Trudeau says he's bringing power and unity back to the people with a fairer voting system, but once they're in power it's like "naw this is good".
Ah yes "the Trump" card .... pointing to a tiny minority of white men in power and extrapolating that to the entire population is completely pointless and is just one more generalisation that (feminists love to use which) is just a way of telling the vast majority to shut up and accept the crimes of a few.

I'm not a self-hating white male.
Dosen't read like that.

I just see a lot of people get douchy when they get in power. "Power has its privileges" is a well known saying, and it didn't come from some PC persecution fantasy. Just really think about whether that motto is saying the right or wrong thing and you're half way there.
Which includes everyone, and very much so women. Here's a book to read : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manipulated_Man

And taking someone saying "[self-]entitled" men of power and blowing that out to think he said "all men" doesn't have a sturdy basis for accusing others of creating a straw man argument.
And trying to hide behind constantly say "statistically" to imply all is any different ?

The logic is this: Weinstein led to this trend, this trend led to this conversation. So how did we get from Weinstein to us all being in danger of our careers and lives ruined for saying "nice outfit"?
Because of the tactics of feminists, SJWs and alt-left to attempt to dictacte decorum and social norms by the outrage of the few. i.e. "guilt by hyper sensitivity".

Anyway, what are you saying? That false accusations happen? Sure they do. But my point is that these high profile cases in the media that spurred this thread and are held as a beacon of a changing tide are hardly grey area examples of innocent gestures gone horribly wrong.
False accusations happen a lot, along with the number of witch hunts are increasing .....

Vengeance is not equality or justice. how ever many white males stand by and defend that happen by saying "Well I guess .... statistically that's correct, just keep handing them all till the blood lust is sated"
 

clu

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I failed to see where Louis CK intimidated any employee into watching him jerk off. From what I've read he would ask the person before he did it. In the case of the 2 fellow comedians they stayed and watched his whole performance. Why not just say sorry, I'm not into that and leave? Instead they went into his hotel room and watched. Then years later complain about it. For the record I don't feel his actions were good. He's a little creepy in my books but I also don't think he should be burned on a stake either.
Actually I was thinking of Weinstein and his potted plant when I wrote that.

I don't think Louis C.K. should be burned at the stake either, but he rightly admits that even if he asked it wasn't as free of intimidation as he believed so hopefully he learned something.

Edit to add:

Jemue, take a look in the mirror. You are just as blinded by your outrage as you believe those you accuse are. Read what's written.

I'm on this thread because of the original post where he said that we "have to be careful" because of this new trend that started with Weinstein. I resent that people are self-doubting decent behaviour now.

The Weinstein thing is not vengeance. I've never advocated taking down innocents in the name of payback.

But maybe you're a victim of false accusation. In which case you have my sympathy. If that's your topic maybe start a new thread where it's less likely to get convolved with arguments about those who are getting called out for legit guilty behaviour.

I'm no naive idealist. I've seen good people be falsely accused for things. (And not because I believe they're good, but because I was there and even testified on their behalf, but it didn't help.)

I can say confidently I speak out on this not out of internalized guilt but because idiots who do abuse their power are giving the rest of us a bad name.
 

Jemue

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Sep 28, 2013
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I'm on this thread because of the original post where he said that we "have to be careful" because of this new trend that started with Weinstein. I resent that people are self-doubting decent behaviour now.
Careful is an understatement. Any guy who isn't taking proactive steps to protect themselves or not be left alone in a situation where any accusation could be made - ever - even 20 years in the future retroactively, is a fool.

But maybe you're a victim of false accusation. In which case you have my sympathy. If that's your topic maybe start a new thread where it's less likely to get convolved with arguments about those who are getting called out for legit guilty behaviour. .
Any such claim, even with proof is defined as "a rape apologist" in this part of the world and is a pointless conversation to even try and start.

I'm no naive idealist. I've seen good people be falsely accused for things. (And not because I believe they're good, but because I was there and even testified on their behalf, but it didn't help.)
I've seen it a bunch .... but it's not a "real" issue, because it's against men.

I can say confidently I speak out on this not out of internalized guilt but because idiots who do abuse their power are giving the rest of us a bad name.
Same .... though I would include those that also internalise the negative narrative against men and then project that onto others to feign some kind of moral superiority and be see to be doing the right thing in echo'ing the - increasing - vengeance going around.
 

clu

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Same .... though I would include those that also internalise the negative narrative against men and then project that onto others to feign some kind of moral superiority and be see to be doing the right thing in echo'ing the - increasing - vengeance going around.
My position is this: both true and false allegations do happen. I believe false accusations with consequences are much less common than true allegations without consequences. Don't bother challenging that last sentence; I acknowledge that my belief there carries little meaning to anyone else. (I also know legitimate female victims and their reasoning for not speaking out despite urging to do so.)

But regardless of any of that, saying "witch hunt" is just as much a preconceived bias as saying "all men", so I prefer to speak on specific examples and always start by listening to the story. Saying what "could happen" is not an example, it's speculation. So far the high profile examples of accusations post-Weinstein that I have seen sound credible, so it seems unsupported (so far) to say any witch hunt factor has increased. The kind of stuff even Matt Lauer has done (and basically admitted to) is appalling. Nothing being dug up there says to me "hey they're going to far!" yet. I'd be happy to be pointed to recent high profile examples to the contrary.
 

MissingOne

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Jan 2, 2006
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For context, a quote from Daniel Lublin, a human rights lawyer, writing in the Globe and Mail:

Once upon a time, there was a debate about whether workplace sexual harassment required a recurring pattern of behaviour or a series of incidents in order to make out a successful claim. But now, a majority of the human rights complaints I field concern only a single incident of unwanted behaviour. An unwelcome comment, a hug, an inappropriate remark or even gawking could, in certain circumstances, lead to a successful human rights claim. Although human rights tribunals assess the quantum of damages based on the seriousness of the misconduct, there are countless nominal human rights awards where tribunals take the opportunity to set an example of how not to behave in the workplace.
 

sevenofnine

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I wonder are the lines being shifted in what is sexual harassment, or assault. moved into a harder stance.
what is going on is what im after,

I remember one bret farve sending pics of his junk to some sports castor he wasn't fired,
he lied to the nfl during the investigation he wasn't punished in any way and continued to do gwg commercials
one news castor asked pointedly why was he still on the playing field, if anyone else lied to their boss they would be gone.

cam newton giggled at some female reporter, and said a funny question from a female he lost millions in sponsorship and had to apologize I thought he molested her kid the way
he apologized

matt laurer sent some pics and a toy, some comments he was canned,

monica Lewinsky and billy boy, I read some article recently saying it was rape, because monica at 22 could not give consent, she was overwhelmed and immature, there for it was rape what old billy boy did. 22 years old a white house staffer or intern, and she could not give consent.
just what the hell is going on.
 

Cock Throppled

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Oct 1, 2003
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No doubt a lot of men act like complete asses, especially if they are celebrities, or have a lot of power over others, but I wonder about the knee-jerk reactions where careers are being ruined based on allegations, not facts. Look up the McCarthy hearings in the 1950's, and see what kind of havoc can be wraught by the mob mentality and how people can be swept up in accusations.
 

clu

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No doubt a lot of men act like complete asses, especially if they are celebrities, or have a lot of power over others, but I wonder about the knee-jerk reactions where careers are being ruined based on allegations, not facts. Look up the McCarthy hearings in the 1950's, and see what kind of havoc can be wraught by the mob mentality and how people can be swept up in accusations.
Again it would be great to talk about specific examples...
 

NEbaD

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Mar 15, 2016
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Again it would be great to talk about specific examples...
It appears to me so far that many of the men in Hollywood who have been accused and are vehemently denying guilt, men whose livelihoods are already ruined, aren't even being seriously investigated by police, and one can well imagine the impetus for authorities to prosecute wherever they are able given the current sociopolitical climate. This speaks precisely to how little real evidence there is to support their claims, aside from a he-said-she-said in a time when it is fashionable to so.

Yes, I did say fashionable; remember when it was fashionable to adopt African babies? Or to release one's own sex tape? Let's not pretend there is any line that many would gladly cross in Hollywood for attention & celebrity. How many young women in Hollywood, do you think, willingly prostitute themselves to men in positions of power in exchange for supposed come-uppance? It's the oldest transaction on earth, probably. Happens constantly, I'm sure. And how many of those same women who might have done so unsuccessfully, or whose careers might now be fading, wouldn't cross that line again later on, except now in this different context of becoming accusers?

If you want recent examples, you only need look as far as Jian Ghomeshi, who was CLEARLY the victim of exactly such a plot; after he made that inappropriate pass at his co-worker, a couple spurned exes conspire with one another over literally hundreds of texts and emails how they will destroy him. They are exposed and proven liars, yet after the decision still the blind sheep picket outside the court house, "believe accusers"

Believe accusers? No thanks. I'll trust in due process.

Given time, if the the truth is brought to light in these many accusations, I'm confident that the number of women found to be ruining men's lives with false accusations for self serving purposes will be proportionate to the number of men scarring women forever with heinous sexual assault, but to think that this is solely a women's issue and that they are little more than innocent victims in every case would be horribly short-sighted. Just remember: it takes one tweet to accuse a person instantly, and many years to prove false allegations wrong in court.

Lastly, here's a link to some information & statistics regarding on false rape accusations that you may find interesting, including a great peer reviewed study out of Cambridge which I strongly recommend reading, for perspective in these crazy times!
 

NEbaD

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Mar 15, 2016
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I wonder are the lines being shifted in what is sexual harassment, or assault. moved into a harder stance.
what is going on is what im after,
What is going on, IMHO, is that there are extremely large and well funded groups & organizations that are working hard to sway public opinion & enact legislation towards their ends. The groups are women's groups, feminists, and their ends are to empower women. They feel that women are horribly and one-sidedly oppressed by men and the patriarchy which they believe exists. They have enjoyed tremendous success in recent decades, which is why we see women enjoying protected status throughout much of the world; living longer, achieving higher education, receiving favorable results in legal matters both family and criminal, and so on.
 

marsvolta

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Aug 31, 2009
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I'm confident that the number of women found to be ruining men's lives with false accusations for self serving purposes will be proportionate to the number of men scarring women forever with heinous sexual assault
wow... speechless.
 

marsvolta

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Aug 31, 2009
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They feel that women are horribly and one-sidedly oppressed by men and the patriarchy which they believe exists. They have enjoyed tremendous success in recent decades, which is why we see women enjoying protected status throughout much of the world; living longer, achieving higher education, receiving favorable results in legal matters both family and criminal, and so on.
look man... you're obviously a very intelligent guy. but you got... some deep issues that you need to go talk out. with some kind of person whos a professional at such things.
 
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