Is Canada a Democracy? I Doubt...

Papacito

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Oct 15, 2016
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Trump travel ban is in the news again: travel ban suspension has been unanimously upheld by U.S. appeals court. And if you remember the suspension was originally imposed by a federal judge in WA state. The reason for the prompt suspension is alleged unconstitutionality of the ban. Democracy definitely works in the US... but what about Canada?

What about the infamous Bill C-36, which is obviously grossly unconstitutional? I know it was challenged in courts, but this challenge may take years go get to the Federal / Supreme court, which may strike it down. How about suspending it in the meantime? How is it possible for Canada's government / parliament to adopt knowingly illegal laws and actually persecute law abiding citizens for many years before a higher court may put a stop to it? Do we have independent judiciary at all?

If there are any people here with legal education, could you clarify this, please? And Bill C-36 is not the only example of the lack of democratic institutions in Canada.
 

rlock

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May 20, 2015
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You want a lack of democracy ?
Try our first-past-the-post electoral system. 39% of the vote, but absolute power in the House of Commons. Most MP's don't even represent a majority of their own constituency's voters; most votes are actually wasted, basically meaningless.
Until that gets fixed, we're not really a democracy, just a sad excuse for one.

Justin Trudeau campaigned promising he'd enact electoral reform. And then last week after all those promises, committee hearings, town halls, and surveys, he decided to throw the whole effort into the trash bin.

Well, his party won't be getting my strategic vote again.
 

Papacito

Banned
Oct 15, 2016
30
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You want a lack of democracy ?
Try our first-past-the-post electoral system. 39% of the vote, but absolute power in the House of Commons. Most MP's don't even represent a majority of their own constituency's voters; most votes are actually wasted, basically meaningless.
Until that gets fixed, we're not really a democracy, just a sad excuse for one.

Justin Trudeau campaigned promising he'd enact electoral reform. And then last week after all those promises, committee hearings, town halls, and surveys, he decided to throw the whole effort into the trash bin.

Well, his party won't be getting my strategic vote again.

Yes, I fully agree with you! The problem is not that Canada's democracy is not perfect - I suspect it's totally lacking due to non-existence of ANY democratic institutions!
 

summerbreeze

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Sep 19, 2004
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Trump travel ban is in the news again: travel ban suspension has been unanimously upheld by U.S. appeals court. And if you remember the suspension was originally imposed by a federal judge in WA state. The reason for the prompt suspension is alleged unconstitutionality of the ban. Democracy definitely works in the US... but what about Canada?

What about the infamous Bill C-36, which is obviously grossly unconstitutional? I know it was challenged in courts, but this challenge may take years go get to the Federal / Supreme court, which may strike it down. How about suspending it in the meantime? How is it possible for Canada's government / parliament to adopt knowingly illegal laws and actually persecute law abiding citizens for many years before a higher court may put a stop to it? Do we have independent judiciary at all?

If there are any people here with legal education, could you clarify this, please? And Bill C-36 is not the only example of the lack of democratic institutions in Canada.
guess you don't know much about how politics work, most ruling party agenda's revolve around getting re-elected, not running the country

if they can get re-elected and run the country, so much the better, then they leave some positive legacy but first priority is to get re-elected

that bill was about Harper wanting to get rid of an opponent in his party, he threw Peter Mackay into a job that would destroy his political career

Bill Bennett did the same thing to Bill Vander Valm when he made him BC Provincial Minister of education. Bennett knew Vander Zalm would try and force his religious attitudes into the school system and he did, it forced him to resign. Mission accomplished

Harper knew well what Mackay would do as Attorney General and let him hang himself. If the bill had succeeded, good for the party, if it failed, it would essentially punt Mackay who was becoming a threat to Harper's leadership. It worked, the bill was so contreversial that Mackay left politics.

politics, nasty business
 

Papacito

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Oct 15, 2016
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guess you don't know much about how politics work, most ruling party agenda's revolve around getting re-elected, not running the country

if they can get re-elected and run the country, so much the better, then they leave some positive legacy but first priority is to get re-elected

that bill was about Harper wanting to get rid of an opponent in his party, he threw Peter Mackay into a job that would destroy his political career

Bill Bennett did the same thing to Bill Vander Valm when he made him BC Provincial Minister of education. Bennett knew Vander Zalm would try and force his religious attitudes into the school system and he did, it forced him to resign. Mission accomplished

Harper knew well what Mackay would do as Attorney General and let him hang himself. If the bill had succeeded, good for the party, if it failed, it would essentially punt Mackay who was becoming a threat to Harper's leadership. It worked, the bill was so contreversial that Mackay left politics.

politics, nasty business

All this may be the case, but it doesn't explain why courts (independent judiciary) didn't intervene and suspend the bill as potentially unconstitutional.
 

Caramel

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Dec 21, 2011
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chaos and disaster occurs everytime you put conservatives/republicans in power, examples: travel ban, bill c36, abstinence education, etc etc. creationism and climate change deniers etc etc
 
W

Warl0ck

chaos and disaster occurs everytime you put conservatives/republicans in power, examples: travel ban, bill c36, abstinence education, etc etc. creationism and climate change deniers etc etc
That's only recently though. If you look back through history you'd be surprised at what the Republican party did. Republicans freed the slaves & started the process of women having the right to vote. The Progressive Conservative party did the same thing in Canada. It's only in the past quarter century they've become the party of redneck goons.

I think what surprises me the most is how easily Americans will turn on their own Constitution. You've got 10's of thousands of soldiers out there, in the desert, defending the democracy & the constitution but back at home people shit on the Constitution or spend their "freedom" caring about Kim K. SummerBreeze is right. Politicians stopped serving the people & only serve their masters & themselves.

Justin Trudeau is no better. He's just taught us the key to staying popular as a liar & cheater is to be a good looking guy.
 

Tugela

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Oct 26, 2010
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You want a lack of democracy ?
Try our first-past-the-post electoral system. 39% of the vote, but absolute power in the House of Commons. Most MP's don't even represent a majority of their own constituency's voters; most votes are actually wasted, basically meaningless.
Until that gets fixed, we're not really a democracy, just a sad excuse for one.

Justin Trudeau campaigned promising he'd enact electoral reform. And then last week after all those promises, committee hearings, town halls, and surveys, he decided to throw the whole effort into the trash bin.

Well, his party won't be getting my strategic vote again.
I like the system as it is. At least we get stable governments with actual policies, which is something that usually doesn't with proportional representation systems.
 

Tugela

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chaos and disaster occurs everytime you put conservatives/republicans in power, examples: travel ban, bill c36, abstinence education, etc etc. creationism and climate change deniers etc etc
More specifically, that is what happens when you put radicals/extremists/fundamentalists in power. The left wing is not much better than the right wing in that respect, their unreasonableness is just exercised in other areas.

The best governments to have in power are those that follow centrist policies.
 

Horn_dawg

Member
Mar 19, 2006
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I have a legal education and will clarify it for you. It is not obviously, grossly, unconstitutional. What makes you think it is? What is knowingly illegal about it? Who is being persecuted? And your last dumb ass comment about an independent judiciary ...I think you already answered that when you acknowledged the Supreme Court may strike it down
Obviously the Trump legal team should have hired you, and you would have convinced the federal and appeal courts.
 

overdone

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Apr 26, 2007
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I like the system as it is. At least we get stable governments with actual policies, which is something that usually doesn't with proportional representation systems.
and basically no one was asking for it, take PEI's hack at it, no one bothered to vote, cause they don't care about it, if people actually wanted change they'd have voted
(it also was shot down for the status Quo in Ontario and BC already, a few yrs ago)

except the crooked Zoolander, trying to fix it to his supposed advantage of ranking ballots, along with getting votes from the NDP light

along with the perpetual losers, the NDP/Greens, in their lust for some, any power, with pop by rep, which would cause perpetual minorities, with the nutbar fringe able to force their ideologies on us with less than 10% of the vote

makes the 39% the Devil Harper and the bankrupting pos with nice hair look good now, no?

the general public never considered this a priority, just look at the pathetic turn out at the town halls, the survey, christ. average people when asked didn't even know it was happening, as is obvious with continuously low 60% voting participation rate, we have uninformed idiots who can't name the PM, their MP, MLA, local city rep, cause they don't care

maybe we could start by allotting seats according to actual population, the East Coast gets almost 10% of the seats yet has only around 6.5% of the pop, PEI gets 4 seats and has barely 100,000 or so people


how about also putting "none of the above" on the ballot and make voting mandatory, then watch "none" win

then you might get real democracy, when they can't get their snouts in the trough, you might actually get candidates who will really represent what people really want/care about
 

rlock

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May 20, 2015
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That's only recently though. If you look back through history you'd be surprised at what the Republican party did. Republicans freed the slaves & started the process of women having the right to vote. The Progressive Conservative party did the same thing in Canada. It's only in the past quarter century they've become the party of redneck goons.

I think what surprises me the most is how easily Americans will turn on their own Constitution. You've got 10's of thousands of soldiers out there, in the desert, defending the democracy & the constitution but back at home people shit on the Constitution or spend their "freedom" caring about Kim K. SummerBreeze is right. Politicians stopped serving the people & only serve their masters & themselves.

Justin Trudeau is no better. He's just taught us the key to staying popular as a liar & cheater is to be a good looking guy.


People point out that fact about the Republicans, but it's largely meaningless today - the Democrats and Republicans basically switched positions during the civil rights era. And now the GOP has terrible relations with anybody who's not white or [right-wing] jewish.

As for the Conservatives in Canada, what Mulroney and Harper stood for with regard to relations with the US & trade policy (pro-American annexationism) for is a betrayal of what the John A. MacDonald conservatives were about.

Even if one traces the existence of "conservative" or "liberal" or "socialist" forces way way back, it does not really follow that the reality of the 1860's parties would still be true today. Parties can change due to circumstances and the personalities that run them.
 

rlock

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May 20, 2015
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I like the system as it is. At least we get stable governments with actual policies, which is something that usually doesn't with proportional representation systems.
That's absolutely untrue. In fact, first-past-the-post causes more instability. People forget the example of Germany (proportional and far more stable than ours), but also like to overlook what FPTP produces:

1) FPTP favour regionally-concentrated parties and penalizes parties that have significant nationwide support but do not dominate any specific geographic region. What you get as a result of this is parties, that address regional concerns more than nationwide ones, and this pits the different regions against each other politically. It therefore is a threat to national unity. Evidence?
A) Look at the rise of the Bloc Quebecois in Canada - small % of total votes but all in one province; at one point this effect was strong enough to made them the official opposition.
B) Look at the UK - there has been a similar regional fracturing there, and now the UK is threatened by a Scottish separatist party - one which dominates Scotland's seats and is the third largest party in terms of seats despite not getting even 5% of the UK total vote.
C) Look at the USA - It should be obvious that even the states that are "safe" for either the Democrats or Republicans are not totally for one or the other party in actual votes; yet time and time again, a state gets "swept" because it is winner-takes-all and not apportioned out by vote percentage.

The plain fact is, it is not producing stability and encourages the kind of divisive struggles that blow countries to pieces.

2) If it is claimed that the object is to represent each area (riding) rather than create a parliament representing the whole nation, then FPTP fails at that too: most MP's do not even represent a majority of votes in their own area. Given this fact, a majority of voters have their vote wasted - they are not represented in parliament. It forces voters to vote strategically, to deny seats to their most hated opponents, rather than freely choose the party or candidate that best suits their beliefs. Voters are not fools - they know the mechanics of how it works, so the question for many is whether to be defeated by their own ideals, or to be a cynic and vote for the best way to harm a foe.


FPTP allows one party to take a minority of votes and use that to trample over everybody with unchecked power for a few years. It is supported by parties who think they can leverage minority support into absolute power, and force the majority of the population to eat shit.
All they need is to just barely be ahead in each of the 338 individual races; you can have a so-called "majority government" with as little as 30% of the vote, depending on how it breaks. Would you deserve to hold power alone? Nope. Would you have most people agreeing with what you do? Nope. Would your government start out with most voters disgruntled, and only go downhill from there? Yes.

So, maybe you mean "decisive" not "stable". And maybe you mean governments with "policies formed by one party alone" - for there is nothing stopping policies from forming in other countries, except there the parties have to have a majority of voters supporting their ideas. Whether that takes one or more than one party to get there, at least they do not routinely assume that a government cannot simply go against the majority of citizens' wishes and get away with it.

Like I said, FPTP is the system that appeals to those parties who dream of holding unchecked dictatorial power, but who are so delusional they never imagine themselves losing it.

EDIT: And you know, It's getting pretty far off from the OP's purpose, now that I read that again, so I'll try to say no more.
 
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westwoody

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Jun 10, 2004
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Westwood
I would like to see the House of Commons remain first past the post.
The Senate could be chosen by proportional representation. It is a filthy cesspool of patronage and nepotism now. Any change would be an improvement.

Proportional Representation is great in theory.
Implementation is problematic.
How do you deal with choosing who gets to represent each Party? Obviously some elected MPs will be forced to step down to make room for those of parties needing more seats. This is not democratic at the riding level. What if I elect a Tory MP and they get replaced by a Green with totally opposite policies? That is not fair to voters in my riding.
I think Trudeau actually had good intentions. I like the concept. But it is not practical or doable.
 

rlock

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May 20, 2015
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It's not theory if other countries are managing it just fine. Germany's a federal state with a parliamentary system; they have managed to seamlessly blend proportionality and local/regional representation. Australia and New Zealand got rid of FPTP with no ill effects, and they are on the Westminsiter model of parliament as we are. It's not a matter of being hard to do, it's a matter of convincing the parties that win in our current system to stop clinging to unwarranted power by their fucking fingernails. None of them can ever see past the tactical aspects of the next election; they defend the status quo by reflex, because they are so immersed in all the bullshit it requires of them, they would rather poison the well than allow anyone else to drink from it.

As for the Senate, yes, of course it should be elected. Once again, aside from whichever party is in power currently, everyone always thinks so. Since 1967, the same problem is complained about but never solved.

If anything, it's the Commons which should be proportional (under MMP or some such) - to represent the beliefs of the nation accurately. The Senate is the body supposedly there to represent regional / local interests, so that one would be better of elected by a more local-centric method: alternative vote, STV, even a majority-runoff system.

Basically any system is better than FPTP, and both houses need an overhaul. It's long overdue.
 

Papacito

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Oct 15, 2016
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I have a legal education and will clarify it for you. It is not obviously, grossly, unconstitutional. What makes you think it is? What is knowingly illegal about it? Who is being persecuted? And your last dumb ass comment about an independent judiciary... I think you already answered that when you acknowledged the Supreme Court may strike it down.

The OP was referring to C-36 and that was what I was addressing. It would be nice to know on what basis he considers it grossly unconstitutional etc.
It's really amazing that even people with legal education are so brainwashed in Canada, that they leave comments sounding more like they are high school dropouts... :)

So, what is so much wrong with C-36 to the degree that it is obviously unconstitutional and inherently persecutory?

- Let's first look in the Charter: "1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. 12. Everyone has the right not to be subjected to any cruel and unusual
treatment or punishment.15.(1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to
the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination..."

- Now ask yourself a question: is sex with a consenting adult part of your right to life and personal liberty and privacy? Seriously, isn't sex a very important aspect of your life, which you shouldn't be punished for, at least in a "free and democratic society"? Would it be cruel and unusual to criminally punish a person for his natural and healthy desire to have sex with another adult agreeing to do the same? Is it Canada or Saudi Arabia, for fuck's sake?

- If "johns" are prosecuted (persecuted?) just for paid sex with consenting SPs, why SPs are not prosecuted? Don't they intentionally participate in the same "crime" and even "mastermind" it? If it is illegal to buy sex, why is it legal to sell? Why "johns" are discriminated? That's unconstitutional!

- If it is illegal to pay for sex by hiring an SP, why it is still legal to pay adult film actors for sex? So if a girl is paid to have gang bang on the camera, that's legit, that's not sexual exploitation, and you can actually legally sell porn and benefit from it! And why "sugar daddies" are not prosecuted? That's unconstitutional!

- The law now considers all SP as victims, and "johns" as their abusers, for which they should be criminally punished. Since consensual adult sex itself is not an abuse, this approach means "johns" are not punished based on any specific evidence, but persecuted as a social group. Think about it: the onus of proof always lies on prosecution, so it would be reasonable to expect prosecution to prove that a specific "john" victimized a specific SP besides having sex with her, but guilt by association with a certain social group solves the problem. This goes against "the principles of fundamental justice".

It blows my mind how any normal person with some common sense may even consider Bill C-36 as legitimate and constitutional. It is based purely on extremist ideology and persecution. And the fact that it is not suspended yet by "independent judiciary" means we don't have any... Yes, it may be eventually striken down by higher courts but it doesn't mean much, as in the meantime (and we are talking a few years at least) law abiding citizens and taxpayers will be brutally and arbitrary persecuted by the totalitarian government.
 
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