Market crash??

felixthecat

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Buffett doesn't buy at the peak of the market. Part of investing long-term is also buying the right asset at the right price when there is real value.
Second sentence is almost accurate, first is not. He does not wait for "the right price", he was absolutely buying even on (local) peaks when there is value say from 2009 to now. Value is measured mostly by valuations and comparing to other asset classes.

It's true he was in cash say in mid-2008 because valuations didn't look good. Then he was fully invested in maybe Oct 2008, one can say too early, as he thought the value was good; not because he tried to call the bottom.
 

felixthecat

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Long-term holding works if you AREN'T buying at the peak of the market when the masses usually rush in as part of the frenzy.
That is true, putting all money in at the peak of the market can get people in trouble, even if you have to reach to a decades old obviously overvalued foreign market for an example.

The OP question, loaded as it was, referred to the current market and oil in particular.

Canadian energy sector trades at lowest prices since 2004, good valuations, that hardly resembles a peak of the market at all. It is a good place of entry. Can it go lower? Yes. Will I seat on cash and wait? No, if I wish to gamble it's cheaper to visit a casino. All is subject to diversification of course.

OP also asked for reassurance whether it's right to hold. Yes it's right to hold and not panic, selling at the bottoms is as bad as buying at the tops.
All this is not a universal answer - add disclaimer about risk tolerance. This was a relatively small market drop (other than Chinese part), what if it gets worse? Some people just cannot keep from panicking, they'd be better never investing in the stock market (at least not actively investing).
 

sdw

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I think Oil has nothing going for it as an investment. The Saudis have indicated that they are going to continue to pump as much Oil as they can. The thought a few months ago was that the Saudis were attacking Shale Oil and Gas. It now looks like they are on a mission to pump the last drop of Oil before the Royal Families leave the region. The Saudi Royals have always tried to appease the Religious Fanatics, it now is looking like they have realized that they weren't going to succeed. Saudi "Dane-geld" is where the funding for the Religious Fanatics was coming from.

World Wide, there is pressure to reduce or eliminate the Oil economy. With Oil now trading at under U$45 and Canada's Oil Sands Oil trading at a discount of almost 20% (Brent Crude U$43.13 WTI Crude C$39.27), there is going to be a pull-back from expensive capital projects and shut-downs of operations that can't return a profit at current prices. Alberta and Saskatchewan are not going to achieve an increased ability to ship to Tide Water, because the projects are going to be abandoned.

I continue to be a believer in "Peak Oil" however prices and politics means that Oil is a poor investment for the next 5 - 10 years.

In 1985 - 1986 the Oil Sands weren't economic at current prices and it took until 2003 for prices to recover enough to make many operations profitable. The International Oil Companies won't be bringing the Oil Sands into full production until after less expensive operations have been brought back into production.

With the current government in Alberta and what looks to be the coming Federal Government, I wouldn't be investing in anything "Dirty" or "Dangerous to the Environment". The political climate is going to be quite hostile for the next few years.
 

Equity Market investor

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Apr 9, 2009
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Yep. Holding long-term is the way to go (with ironic tone).
Beginning of 1990 - Nikkei 225 was 37,189
Beginning of 2000 - Nikkei 225 was 19,539
Yesterday it closed at 17,806
The 1990 peak has not yet been reclaimed (market would have to go up over 100% to reach that).
And it took until April of this year before the 2000 peak was reached once again.

However, if someone had bought anytime during 2001-2005 or 2009-2013, they should be sitting on a healthy profit.
Long-term holding works if you AREN'T buying at the peak of the market when the masses usually rush in as part of the frenzy.

I would wait before adding any long-term holdings.
That is Japan.....if your comment was in reference to me. North American markets are clearly different. Click on ALL for time chart.

https://www.google.ca/finance?q=INDEXTSI:OSPTX&ei=WT3dVaDLG4fziQKPgavYAQ&hl=en&gl=ca

https://www.google.ca/finance?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI&ei=BT7dVeOhFIj8igKErZ6YCw&hl=en&gl=ca

I'm not sure if you understand the term " dollar cost average". Might wanna look it up ;)

I can't obviously speak for you :) but....All I know is that strategy has worked well for me as an investor for ......oooohh...20 years now. I've been through 3 major slides. So.....:) . I'm doing fine :);)

Large blue chips mixed in with different kinds of Mutual funds, hedge funds and some etf's .....one can do fine. Of course, all is subjective to risk preference. IE......high mutual funds to etf's and income funds, balanced funds etc etc.....you get the pic :)
 

Justin Beaver

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That's the problem, they are crying wolf for quite a while. Sorry, this kind of "experts" are useless. They never tell you to buy, it's always doom and gloom. If you believed that, you'd stay in cash which earns stable 0% (or -2% if you adjust to inflation).

Compare to people who invested just before 2008 and stayed invested; they are sitting on a profit, despite the most unfortunate timing.
More realistically, people who invest regularly and stay invested would outperform nicely both these "experts" and majority of others who try to time the market.
Well when enough big name finance guys are crying wolf,there just might be something there.When this particular blogger has called the last two crashes accurately with facts and stats to back it up beforehand while all the "experts" in the mainstream media are still trying to figure out what's going on,I know who I'm going to believe.

BTW,I've invested in real estate and and am doing fine.I don't buy into the stock market anyways as I like to go to sleep at night not worrying that big chunks of my net worth are going to be gone when I wake up the next day.
 

felixthecat

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Aug 28, 2011
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I continue to be a believer in "Peak Oil" however prices and politics means that Oil is a poor investment for the next 5 - 10 years.
You made lots of great points. Very useful to give people some insight why betting on the bottom in oil is dangerous. It may or may not be a good investment, but there are reasons I wouldn't bet on a 5 year decline either.

- In theory, stock prices should have already adjusted to these risks;
- Canadian companies have costs mostly in CAD, but output is priced in USD. The exchange rate trend helps them significantly;
- yes many Oil Sands projects will be cut due to costs, industry will adjust, some profitable projects will remain;
- Saudi's policy might change, either by them or with internal/external influence;
- Middle East is never stable, even local conflicts could disrupt the supply;
- dropping prices could induce new agreements, e.g. Russians cooperating with OPEC could turn the market.

Nothing here is certain, except there WILL be unexpected events within next 5 years.
 

summerbreeze

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You mean when enough big name finance guys who are still in the industry.

Most have retired or been let go. Arabs manipulating oil and gas prices, fed manipulating gold, China consumption done and heading lower. Greece, Italy, Ireland, Spain, in serious debt trouble. Putin on the verge of war with Ukraine. Japan rearming. North Korea escalating conflict with South Korea.

U.S. Election in play.

Not a great scenario for confidence building. Plenty of things which could disrupt current fragile markets.

Add to that the fact the baby boomers are well past peak spending age
 

sdw

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felixthecat, why 5 - 10 years. The Saudis are going to pump the very last drop if it's safe to stay in Saudi Arabia. That's 5 years at least and possibly 10 years if we assume that they won't increase or decrease their production capability. Iran may push the Saudis exodus up if they got the massive international development money that would be needed to increase the Iranian production, which would allow Iran to do more funding of fanatics than they can currently afford. Iran may also be very surprised at the depletion of their "Known Reserves" in the same manner that Saddam was. Saddam just blamed the wrong country for it. The reason that Iraq has a weak government right now is that the government has no money. What money there is, the corrupt government ships to their offshore bank accounts. Even the Americans couldn't increase production of what had mysteriously disappeared before the 1990s.

summerbreeze, China is currently in a power struggle among it's leaders. Li has been having his supporters pared away with corruption charges and fairly soon there will be a direct challenge of his leadership and, most likely, a new leader appointed. I know an Australian who has removed every picture of themselves with Li or any of Li's supporters. They have swept all of their internet presence.

China's population has the highest standard of living that they have had for hundreds of years. The Chinese are buying small 2 bedroom condos in massive "clone buildings" developments for R$900,000. They happily buy license plates at Auction in the major cities for R$100,000. (you buy the plate at auction before you buy the car) If you go shopping in Beijing or Shanghai, you find that the Chinese are buying the real stuff - not the fake that is only sold to tourists these days.

China's education system is churning out the highly skilled workers they need very efficiently. China will be where the US and Canada were in the 1970s in Education and Productive Capability by 2020.

Unlike leadership changes of the past in China - this leadership change will be accomplished without major disruption to the "Path Forward". What will change is the amount of money that is being shipped out of the country. The new leadership's supporters see shipping money out of the country as a statement that the present prosperity is only temporary - and - they are doing something about it.

Ukraine will only go to war with Russia if they can get NATO and the US to agree to do the heavy lifting. Even under Obama, the US has, so far, refused direct war with Russia.

I've been working on a pipeline network from Guangzhou - through Zhongwei to connect with the main network at Horgos. You would not believe the size and scope of the infrastructure projects in China. They are rebuilding their highway system, rebuilding their railway system, rebuilding their electrical distribution system and building paired CNG and Oil pipelines from Russia to Burma. The Chinese are replacing Coal with Oil and CNG and they will have done it before 2020.

The Russian Oil pipeline is already feeding China's pipeline network and the Russian CNG pipeline will soon be connected. Burma has also connected their CNG pipeline into China's pipeline network.

In the meantime, the USA decided they don't want "Dirty" Canadian Oil and refused to allow a pipeline. Canada also doesn't want "Dirty" Canadian Oil to supply the East Coast refineries and insists on buying just as dirty Brent Crude at much higher prices. It's also pretty apparent that Canada won't be allowing pipelines to Tide Water because Alberta and Saskatchewan's Oil is too "Dirty" for the Chinese or anyone else to be allowed to buy.

The Lower Mainland gets all of it's gasoline from 4 refineries. One is in Alberta, one is in Prince George, one is in Burnaby and one is in Washington State. All of them transport their crude oil and finished product through the Trans Mountain/Kinder Morgan pipeline which is having any expansion of capacity vigorously resisted.

And Yet, people in the Lower Mainland complain about the price of Gas while they drive in their Hummer to the latest protest rally.
 
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Sporting

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Some good convo here. My 2 bits, out of the millions of comments I could make.
1. The half life of a market timer is one market cycle. No one calls crashes. They seldom happen .. see blind squirrel. No one bats even .500 in this business.
2. My best synthesis from what I have read: No recession in sight. Slow growth with bloated debt until it is outgrown or inflated away. Gov't debt never gets paid back, nor does it have to be. Little chance of a collapse. Take a look around you at your quality of life cf when you were 15. Is it better?
3. This will be maintained as economies morph slowly and detritus of the past will wither away, new leaders will emerge and win the business. Look at the rise of AMZN AAPL GOOG FB NFLX GPRO etc. over just the past 10 years. Creative destruction rules, in spite of all the interference, intervention, cronyism, collapsism, every other ism....etc.
4. Go along for the ride, nobody knows anything for sure, the number of factors, combinations and permutations of outcomes are at any point too massive for anyone to be able to forecast with surety. Think probabilities.
5. Look at what sdw has to say on the ground cf what you read in the press.
6. Don't overweight or underweight anything based on what you read or hear. Start with the premise nobody knows. Spread eggs across many baskets
7. Ask yourself if you ever wished you had more $ in the US market at anytime over the past year. Now is the time to act on that. Prices are pretty darn fair right now.
8. Market valuations rise up the staircase, and come down the elevator shaft. The US market's valuations have been pressing against the high end of valuation for some time. Something had to give. Panic ensues with a quick drop of 10%+. The time to buy is during these episodes of irrational selling. Buffet bought the railroads when things couldn't have looked worse for the American econ. The gov't rescue wasn't pretty, fair, or perfect, but it was a rescue. On we go.
9. If you have questions you can dm me, happy to discuss.
 

sdw

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Tim Cook saves the World?

Apple CEO stopped the collapse of the stock market with an email to Jim Cramer - Cramer shared it on twitter and his program
http://moneymorning.com/2015/08/25/...cramer-warrant-sec-investigation-nasdaq-aapl/

In the email, Tim Cook reports that the take-up by the Chinese of Apple wireless products is pretty damn good.

How the License Plate system works in China:

First, it depends on where you are driving the car.

http://onestop.globaltimes.cn/how-do-you-get-a-license-plate-for-a-car-in-china/

If you win the lottery (Beijing) or the Auction (Shanghai), you then buy a car. If you don't win - there are alternatives. http://qz.com/153742/the-genius-ways-beijing-drivers-get-around-the-citys-license-plate-lottery/ Many people enter the lottery because, if they win, they can rent the license plate. Technically, they buy and own the car. This means that the driver of the car also has a "permission slip" from the owner of the license plate.

The public transportation system in the main cities is pretty good, you don't really need a car in Beijing or Shanghai. If you don't want to ride the Bus or Subway - there are lots of Taxis and Limousines available.

The problems with China's stock market are all "Tulip Crash". The corrupt people encouraged people to borrow money to buy stocks, then the "pump and dump" cycle ended, leaving the sucker with nothing and the corrupt person with a house in Vancouver BC Canada. China's real economy is not really affected because most Chinese are pretty conservative with how they invest their money. A population of 2.7 Billion people has a fair number of fools to fleece without affecting anything at all. A lot of the fools are Ex-Pats and Foreign "Investors" who would have also been fleeced in Vancouver.

There are 1.8 million Canadians making money in China without any help at all from the Canadian Government. Australia has more people in China, but Australia has offices of AusTrade in all of the major cities. There are over 3 million Foreign Diplomats in China, there are only 6 from Canada.

The situation is the same all over the Asia-Pacific region. The Canadian Government is simply not interested in setting up real trade with the part of the World that is booming right now and for the foreseeable future.
 
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Cobra GT

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I think the market will rebound a bit in Sept but then slide again and be worse that what it is now in December.
 

sdw

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Volkswagen and Audi have suspended sales of Diesel vehicles in the USA and Canada due to software they had built into their vehicles to fool emissions testing.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/21/usa-volkswagen-idINL5N11R0TU20150921

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group

The German and New York Stock Markets are going to take a big hit - Volkswagen has already dropped 20% in today's trading.

Porsche SE stocks will take a big hit because Porsche is a 50% owner of Volkswagen.

If Volkswagen and Audi have to cut/curtail production because of the withdrawal of USA and Canadian sales - Germany is going to lose a very significant % of it's GNP.

I think that the software "fix" that has been discovered to get vehicles past emissions testing is NOT confined to Diesel vehicles. In the next few days, this one is going to get worse for the investor.
 
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rick hunter

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Volkswagen and Audi have suspended sales of Diesel vehicles in the USA and Canada due to software they had built into their vehicles to fool emissions testing.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/21/usa-volkswagen-idINL5N11R0TU20150921

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group

The German and New York Stock Markets are going to take a big hit - Volkswagen has already dropped 20% in today's trading.

Porsche SE stocks will take a big hit because Porsche is a 50% owner of Volkswagen.

If Volkswagen and Audi have to cut/curtail production because of the withdrawal of USA and Canadian sales - Germany is going to lose a very significant % of it's GNP.

I think that the software "fix" that has been discovered to get vehicles past emissions testing is NOT confined to Diesel vehicles. In the next few days, this one is going to get worse for the investor.


Volkswagen is 100% owner of Porsche. I saw on the BBC today that said Volkswagen had a target of 1 million car sales for the US this year. They're not even remotely close to meeting that goal. The diesel cars are a even smaller fraction of that.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...s-to-europe-1442844206?ru=yahoo?mod=yahoo_itp
 

sdw

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Volkswagen is 100% owner of Porsche. I saw on the BBC today that said Volkswagen had a target of 1 million car sales for the US this year. They're not even remotely close to meeting that goal. The diesel cars are a even smaller fraction of that.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...s-to-europe-1442844206?ru=yahoo?mod=yahoo_itp
There is Porsche the car builder and then there is Porsche SE the holding company owned by the Porsche family. Porsche SE owns 50% of Volkswagen, the German Government is the other majority owner. Various Mutual Funds, Institutions, etc own the remaining Volkswagen shares. There is actually a German law that ensures that control of Audi, Porsche and Volkswagen remains in Germany.

Volkswagen shares lost 17.1% of their value when trading opened today. Later, Porsche SE lost a similar amount of it's value. Mostly who was hurt was the Qatar government and Mutual Funds. Porsche SE has voting shares which are 100% owned by the Porsche family and equity shares that are 50% owned by the Porsche family.

The German government wouldn't have had their industry minister directly involved if Volkswagen was only going to lose a minor amount of market share.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/21/investing/vw-emissions-cheating-shares/

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/VOW:GR

ETR:VOW Fri Sept 18 161.55 EUR, Mon Sept 21 132.50 EUR, Tue Sept 22 open 108.85 EUR Bloomberg is showing a 2 day drop of 39.51%

The CEO of Volkswagen has been fired effective Sept 25 and Volkswagen is delisted on the London Stock Exchange effective Sept 25. Volkswagen stated this morning that the "problem" is not just with 500,000 Diesel vehicles, 11,000,000 vehicles have a "discrepancy" between emissions testing and road performance.
 
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sdw

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Europe (mostly Germany) has been testing vehicles. Early results begin to indicate that ALL vehicle manufacturers "manipulate" the emissions testing by detecting when the vehicle is being tested. Lab tests with a dynamometer are looking like they are too easy to manipulate with software built into the engine control electronics. Both Diesel and Gas vehicles are exhibiting variances between the lab/dynamometer tests and road circuit tests. It looks like all governments are going to have to retest for emissions and rethink what are permissible emissions.

The Environmentalists are going to be screaming, but the cheating is because the vehicle manufacturers have been unable to meet the emissions standards.

There are lots of aftermarket ECU (Engine Control Unit) kits and the specifications make it clear that the intent is to allow the user to have a "performance" setting and the ability to adjust to a "testing" setting. http://www.emeraldm3d.com/k6-ecu-info-and-specification

It's clear that the automotive community is well aware that emissions testing is easily manipulated. The scandal is that Volkswagen needed to do the manipulation for their stock configurations to pass emissions testing.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...d-climate-politics-behind-volkswagens-scandal

As the National Post points out, diesel vehicles may not be the best solution for light vehicles and the politics that lead to emission testing defeat software may have long term consequences. Especially in Europe where diesel vehicles are 50% or more of the light vehicles on the road.
 
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sdw

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The BBC has an article out that says VW was warned off of using their defeat device years ago. The incestuous relationship between government and industry meant that they ignored the warning.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34373637

The article also talks about the debt problem that banks now have as the result of the VW scandal. VW was selling their car loans to the banks and the banks are now holding a lot of paper on vehicles that are worth much less than the amount of the loan. Shades of the US housing loans in 2008 and probably going to have much the same result.

The BBC also has a long article on China and why China is slowing down. http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34340936
Basically, too many consumers investing has created a Tulip Crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania
This has redirected available money from the consumer market into the investment market and the Chinese government is now trying to discourage consumers from investing in low quality companies. If the Chinese government is successful, the economy may recover without a recession. Of course the VW problem is not going to help the Chinese government's efforts.
 

wilde

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Just call it a bubble and be done with it...
 

sdw

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Ran into this article on China in Canadian Business - basically what I was saying earlier in this thread. http://www.canadianbusiness.com/global-report/canada-china-long-term-thinking/
In China, Canadian businesses need to think longer term

HSBC’s chief economists for China and Canada argue businesses should ignore the volatility and engage now
Dec 11, 2015 Murad Hemmadi

The rumours of China’s economic demise are greatly exaggerated. That’s the message David Watt, Chief Economist for Markets at HSBC Canada, thinks Canadian businesses need to hear.

China has been the cause of market volatility and lowered outlooks across the world, as the financial community and Western economists worry that the growth of the Chinese economy may slow more sharply than expected. And in an interview last month at the bank’s Toronto offices, HSBC Managing Director, Co-Head of Asian Economic Research and Chief Economist for Greater China Hongbin Qu says that there is indeed cause for concern.

“China does face a slowdown risk and some pretty strong headwinds,” he noted. Exports have been weaker than expected, and manufacturing has slowed in tandem. But Qu believes those troubles don’t amount to all they’re made out to. “I think the worries that the overall economy is going to have a sharper slowdown or a hard landing—there are even some people talking about some sort of crisis in the making—are overblown,” he says.

Both economists say there’s a tendency to overemphasize economic trends and indicators emerging from China. Take the devaluation in August of the renminbi, which was seen as an attempt by the Chinese government to bolster export competitiveness. The overreaction to the renminbi devaluation is perhaps understandable—China’s economy and policymaking bodies remain frustratingly opaque to outside observers. But the size of the change (2%) and the fact that exports are far more sensitive to global demand than exchange rates indicate that the move was about reforming the exchange rate regime to be more market-driven, says Qu, not starting a price war.

Or take the idea that the country is rebalancing from an investment- and export-driven economy to a consumption-driven one. “When people focus on that, they get the impression that the Chinese are not consuming, which is totally wrong,” says Qu. “Chinese consumers are spending money—in fact, it’s already the largest market for many consumer goods.” For example, China overtook the U.S. as the world’s largest auto market three years ago, and its citizens are the top consumers of luxury goods globally.

Canadian firms wait for some sort of grand switch-flipping from export to consumption. “When we think about the global economy, we used to think, ‘What does the U.S. consumer want?’” says Watt. “We have to start thinking, ‘What does the Chinese consumer want?’ because that’s going to be a driver of global trends over the next 30 years.” That applies to all Canadian businesses, not just ones built around consumer products or services. “We have to be in the business of providing parts of the process, of the supply or value chain,” said Watt.

Another Chinese trend that’s been much-covered is urbanization. Each year, some 10 million people move from rural areas of China into the country’s cities, Qu says, and that’s likely to continue until cities reach the 75–80% urbanization rates of countries like Canada (it’s at about 50% now). Much has been made of China’s “ghost neighbourhoods”—areas where building and infrastructure development have run ahead of current demand, leaving apartment buildings and streets empty. “In some small towns you may have buildup ahead of sale,” Qu admitted. “But that doesn’t mean that there will never be people, or that the building will be empty forever.”

Urbanization leads not only to increased consumption, but a more direct source of economic growth. Qu invoked Economics 101: the only sustainable source of growth over time is productivity growth. And there are only two ways to grow productivity: “One is that though the same people do the same jobs year after year, you give them better equipment—that’s innovation,” he explained. “Secondly, and this is more important, you have the labourers shifting from very low-productivity jobs toward the high-productivity jobs.” The shift from rural occupations to factory work or other urban jobs produces a productivity gain of several hundred percent, creating a substantial floor for China’s growth.

Capturing a piece of that growth could be very lucrative, and Canadian companies can do it without having to stretch themselves too much. “You don’t have to service everybody,” notes Qu. “All you need to do is look at your own competitive advantage.” But it’s crucial that businesses put their China plans in place immediately. “Start implementing it tomorrow,” says Watt. “And if something happens in China, like the stock market sells off sharply again, don’t delay it for another six months.”

Although Canada now has a renminbi hub, in Toronto, Watt says Canadian governments could also be doing more. Australia has both a hub and a free trade deal, while the U.K. has been engaging China at governmental, industry and company levels; Qu says breaking ranks with other developed economies to join the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank “took a bit of bravery” on the part of the British government. While free trade between Canada and China is by no means inevitable, Watt says there’s room for greater clarity on issues like oil sands acquisitions or investment pushing up prices in the Vancouver housing market. “China has indicated, ‘We want more engagement with Canada,’” says Watt. “It’s now up to us to start engaging the other way.”
 
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