Reality of Micros

[Sucre]

Human trafficking
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Human trafficking is the trade of humans, most commonly for the purpose of sexual slavery, forced labor or commercial sexual exploitation for the trafficker or others.[

Sex trafficking affects 4.5 million people worldwide.[65] Most victims find themselves in coercive or abusive situations from which escape is both difficult and dangerous.[66]
Trafficking for sexual exploitation was formerly thought of as the organized movement of people, usually women, between countries and within countries for sex work with the use of physical coercion, deception and bondage through forced debt. However, the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000 (US),[67] does not require movement for the offence. The issue becomes contentious when the element of coercion is removed from the definition to incorporate facilitation of consensual involvement in prostitution.

Human trafficking differs from people smuggling, which involves a person voluntarily requesting or hiring another individual to covertly transport them across an international border, usually because the smuggled person would be denied entry into a country by legal channels. Though illegal, there may be no deception or coercion involved. After entry into the country and arrival at their ultimate destination, the smuggled person is usually free to find their own way. According to the International Centre for Migration Policy Development (ICMPD), people smuggling is a violation of national immigration laws of the destination country, and does not require violations of the rights of the smuggled person. Human trafficking, on the other hand, is a crime against a person because of the violation of the victim's rights through coercion and exploitation.[19] Unlike most cases of people smuggling, victims of human trafficking are not permitted to leave upon arrival at their destination.
While smuggling requires travel, trafficking does not.

Susi
“the majority of AMP workers are NOT trafficked. we are in contact with them here and in other canadian cities...”

Tugela
“As I said before, if someone is arranging for them to come and work here illegally, it is trafficking. That is what trafficking is. You don't get to redefine the term because you don't like the meaning.”

It seems Wikipedia requires cohesion, for it to be human trafficking not travel, so immigration illegal or otherwise is a non factor As such it seems Susi and her statements use the more correct definition as supported by wikipedia and Tugela is trying to redefine the term because he does not like the meaning

 

[Caramel]

whatever the definition, its still a very sad and unfortunate situation these women are in

 

[treveller]

Sucre, we both went to Wikipedia at the same time. I have already done the typing so I will post anyway.

Tugela, you said "If they are here working illegally through some arrangement organized by someone else, they are trafficked. End of story. That is what trafficking is in the Canadian context. It isn't about people being forcibly stuffed into containers to be shipped here and worked as slaves or something like that." As I understand your definition of trafficking, anyone who gets advice or assistance to enter Canada under false pretenses and works illegally once here has been trafficked.

Wikipedia seems to disagree with you.

Wikipedia further describes human trafficking as "the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of persons, by means of threat or use of force or other forms of coercion, of abduction, of fraud, of deception, of the abuse of power or of a position of vulnerability or of the giving or receiving of payments or benefits to achieve the consent of a person having control over another person, for the purpose of exploitation."

It seems that for a person to be "trafficked" there must be an element of force, coercion, threat or control over that person by someone else. It is not sufficient that the person was assisted in entering and working illegally.

You say with regard to your definition, "That is what trafficking is in the Canadian context." What can you cite from the Canadian context that supports your definition? You may be looking at the way Harper, Joy Smith and other prohibitionists misuse the term. I suggest they should not be allowed to define the Canadian context.

There should be a lot more care exercised when challenging someone. Remarks such as "I don't think you understand what trafficked means. Or maybe you don't want to." should be avoided. I say this while admitting I need to listen to my own advice.

Susi also addresses the difficult issue of whether someone's immigration status should be used to prevent them from working or remaining in Canada. It raises the question of whether governments (and the people they claim to represent) have the right to carve the planet into pieces and then dictate who can live and work where. This may be the question that defines humanity over the present century and I have great respect for the position Susi has taken.

 

[76duster]

I agree with Tugela on what trafficking is.

 

[treveller]

76duster, belief ("I agree with Tugela") without evidence or reason is a wonderous thing. It has given us the world we enjoy today. Cheers.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

'human trafficking' is such a new term in the english language that it has no widely accepted definition yet. this opens the field to MANY definitions - as many as there are users of the term

personally, i think it's political and journalistic hogwash. we have laws governing illegal immigration. labour standards, issuance of visas and sexual offences. if these previously existing laws were properly enforced. there would be no reason for the term

 

[storm rider]

the majority of AMP workers are NOT trafficked. we are in contact with them here and in other canadian cities...

in my opinion the prices they charge are a reflection of a fundamental difference in the culture of business between north america and asia...

here we are about quality over quantity - sp's here prefer 3 or 4 clients at a better wage -

where amp workers are about quantity over quality - charging a little less and increasing volume -

does that make sense?

That makes perfect sense to me.As for the "slavery factor" or "human trafficking" it is utter BS.Why on earth would you give a gal who is supposedly a captive her own cellphone or internet access?A few years back the "mamasan" of my fave micro whom I knew quite well asked me to do her a favour.She asked me to take one of her girls on a bank run to deposit her earnings.I said yes and when I showed up showed up she was ready to go and dressed to the NINES.She was packing 2 cellphones as well as her passport and a bankroll big enough to choke a moose and she had only been working for a week.I had to park a block away from the bank and on the walk there EVERY single guy did a double take looking at this stunning gal on my arm.

I hope my own direct observations and interaction on this subject sheds some light on it to the unenlightened.These gals make a good living compared to working in a factory in Hong Kong or anywhere in mainland China and they are here beacuse they choose to do so and the are not prisoners held with no recourse.

SR

 

[ReedRothchild]

I hope my own direct observations and interaction on this subject sheds some light on it to the unenlightened.These gals make a good living compared to working in a factory in Hong Kong or anywhere in mainland

SR

Really SR?

I once met an escort that drove a nice car, therefore they all must drive nice cars, therefore they are all rich, therefore they all must be making huge money escorting.

Hope this anecdotal subjective opinion based on confirmation bias and one incident enlightens you on the entire industry.

 

[Caramel]

That makes perfect sense to me.As for the "slavery factor" or "human trafficking" it is utter BS.Why on earth would you give a gal who is supposedly a captive her own cellphone or internet access?A few years back the "mamasan" of my fave micro whom I knew quite well asked me to do her a favour.She asked me to take one of her girls on a bank run to deposit her earnings.I said yes and when I showed up showed up she was ready to go and dressed to the NINES.She was packing 2 cellphones as well as her passport and a bankroll big enough to choke a moose and she had only been working for a week.I had to park a block away from the bank and on the walk there EVERY single guy did a double take looking at this stunning gal on my arm.

I hope my own direct observations and interaction on this subject sheds some light on it to the unenlightened.These gals make a good living compared to working in a factory in Hong Kong or anywhere in mainland China and they are here beacuse they choose to do so and the are not prisoners held with no recourse.

SR

"because if she don't come back or do what I say I will have a talk with her family back home" says the mobster...

 

[ziggyzoo]

They are very good actresses, oh and do not do wrong to the mamasan (also a slave).

Whats funny is how pathetic border services are, welcome to Canada, student., lol, yet I get stripped search if I have an undeclared bottle of booze in my luggage.

I feel sorry for these girls, it's sad that the high level gangs do business in this way and cannot be touched by the law, or what's right.

I would say ban the micros, but all you horny types can't say no, that's what's more pathetic than anything

 

[clu]

For what it's worth Wikipedia is not a legal resource, but the US Department of Homeland Security also defines human trafficking as using "force, fraud, or coercion to lure their victims and force them into labor or commercial sexual exploitation."

http://www.dhs.gov/definition-human-trafficking

There is also this fact sheet from the US Government that distinguishes between human smuggling and human trafficking:

http://m.state.gov/md90434.htm

Unlike smuggling, which is often a criminal commercial transaction between two willing parties who go their separate ways once their business is complete, trafficking specifically targets the trafficked person as an object of criminal exploitation.

Sorry US resources were easier to find than Canadian ones, but I don't expect the term to deviate too much here.

 

[Sonny]

asian micro girls in vancouver GVA

are they doing sex work here against their will? what susi writes is correct... no, for the vast majority it is a personal choice to make fast money... now the domestic white girls may be another story....

most chinese micros have rates of 100 / 30 minutes & 120 / 45 minutes .... house gets 30 for the 30 minutes , girl gets 70..... house gets 40 for the 45 minutes, girl gets 80

what a girl makes is based on how well she does her job and the number of repeat clients she can achieve... what the house generates by advertising is not sufficient to ensure maximum income...

if she averages 5 clients a day, she will make between $350 and $400 a day, depending on the mix of session lengths.... the more popular girl will see more... times by the number of net work days, being 22 - 24 or so days a month...

maybe she's here in Canada for six months..... so you can do the math if it is so important to know what folks make... I have more an issue with luxury real estate agents' incomes or that of investment "advisors"

 

[opticaltubeassembly]

I have more an issue with luxury real estate agents' incomes or that of investment "advisors"

yes, but that's only because they won't give you a blowjob for $80...talk about "confirmation bias"

I don't think you'd have any issues with a luxury real estate agent or investment "advisor" who enveloped your cock in her mouth

 

[opticaltubeassembly]

Wikipedia seems to disagree with you.

Wikipedia further describes human trafficking as "the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of persons, by means of of fraud, of deception,"

It is not sufficient that the person was assisted in entering and working illegally.

To the contrary

you only have to satisfy any one of those conditions

 

[clu]

To the contrary

you only have to satisfy any one of those conditions

No you have to satisfy one condition in each clause:

One of: "the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of persons"

Plus by means of one of: "of threat or use of force or other forms of coercion, of abduction, of fraud, ... Etc."

But regardless the more legal version of the definition is in the US Govt. links above. In short if you are willingly transported it is human smuggling, not human trafficking.

 

[opticaltubeassembly]

No you have to satisfy one condition in each clause:

One of: "the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of persons"

Plus by means of one of: "of threat or use of force or other forms of coercion, of abduction, of fraud, ... Etc."

But regardless the more legal version of the definition is in the US Govt. links above. In short if you are willingly transported it is human smuggling, not human trafficking.

I read the word OR extensively throughout that definition, as opposed to plus or and.

 

[clu]

I read the word OR extensively throughout that definition, as opposed to plus or and.

If this were a legal document the comma before "by means" defines a second clause, which is where the "and" comes from. Regardless Wikipedia is not an authority. Again look at http://m.state.gov/md90434.htm if you want to understand the distinction. It makes it pretty clear. In particular the chart at the bottom says:

"TRAFFICKING: Must Contain an Element of Force, Fraud, or Coercion (actual, perceived or implied), unless under 18 years of age involved in commercial sex acts."

 

[opticaltubeassembly]

"TRAFFICKING: Must Contain an Element of Force, Fraud, or Coercion (actual, perceived or implied), unless under 18 years of age involved in commercial sex acts."

So my question is, if I move a group of people from point A to point B, fraudulently, without force or coercion, over the age of 18, involved in commercial sex acts, am I trafficking?

 

[yvrvisitor]

Trafficed or not, by definition or otherwise.

Bottom line of most of girls in micros - younger k girl or auntie chinese

They come here fully knowing what they will be doing
What they do not know is the condition of their work
They are not allowed to take time or day off unless it's that time of thr month
They are not allowed to say no to another customer because they are tired or sore even if it is 16th customer of the day
Why? Just to ensure profit for the house
The house who paid the broker a fee for getting that girl
The broker areange recruitment of girls, transportation - which is not hard to get 6 mo visitor's visa to Canada
Girls do this for 1 reason and 1 reason only - money
Money in case of chinese aunties is the living money for their family back home
Money in case of younger k girl is the shopping money and plastic surgery money

Once again, i as a pooner to not have a right to judge these girls.

One, i was purely venting my frustration or guilty feeling on this board

Two, as much as some or most us do visit micros for one reason or another, i hope there's an awareness or knowledge of what's really going on in the background.

Once again, i am not here to say, let's not help gangsters make money off of these poor girls. They co-exist for reason we all understand.

I have helped a couple of girls to go independent before. However sometimes they were just not cut out to handle the business side of things - especially when they are only here for a short term and they are here to make fast money.

Once again, this looks like just another uselss mumbling of my own.

 

[clu]

So my question is, if I move a group of people from point A to point B, fraudulently, without force or coercion, over the age of 18, involved in commercial sex acts, am I trafficking?

Seriously, if you are legitimately interested in clarification, read the link. It really does clear it up.

Anyway, you're over specifying. Fraud would be sufficient. Being involved in commercial sex acts are not relevant to the requirement unless they're under 18. Fraud would be, for example, saying you are bringing them here to be a housekeeper when you aren't. That's enough to be called trafficking because the deception takes away their consent.

On the other hand if you tell them "wanna come to Canada and make some money as a sex worker?" and the person is over 18 and says "yes" it's not trafficking, even if you sneak them into the country illegally. Trafficking is about how you tricked/forced them to come, not the legality of them being here.