Has ISIS fucked up?

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm no expert on world politics or foreign affairs but I think ISIS made a big mistake killing/burning that Jordanian pilot.
I know there are various groups and armies battling them but the major players in the coalition in terms of wealth and military might, are still the western countries.

The one thing that has benefitted ISIS is the fact we in the west are too politically correct to win this. I do not mean to sound barbaric or inhumane but as General Sherman put it "War is hell." Unfortunately in any conflict there will be loss of innocent life. Collateral damage as the military like to put it. Here in the west our military options are constantly hampered because there would be outrage if some innocent people died at the hands of our bombs. Thus groups like ISIS can hide amongst the people and the towns they control by blending into the local population.

Now along comes a country such as Jordan. They are pissed and their citizens are demanding revenge. They may not have the military might of the US or Britain but they likely don't give a shit if they go and lay waste to some town where they think ISIS is hiding. As well this seems to have finally forced many high ranking Sunni Muslim clerics to come out against ISIS.

I'm not saying that this will be quick and that ISIS will be defeated purely through military means but I could see Jordan kicking it up a notch when it comes to bombing suspected terrorist positions.

 

[sybian]

I have been "Over There"...as we call it, and you've hit the nail right on the head.
Those families, organizations ,villages or an entire countries have ongoing feuds that will go back generations or centuries. Jordan isn't any different in that aspect...They are a group of citizens that believe whole hearted, in the doctrine of vengence.
If they take out innocents, it's looked at as collateral damage and somewhat acceptable...They figure guilt by association.
ISIS is hesitating executing an American woman...I think maybe it's dawned on them that if they go through with that one...They will have the entire Northern War Machine descending on them....And thats probably a fairly accurate assumption.

 

[morementum]

I'm no expert on world politics or foreign affairs but I think ISIS made a big mistake killing/burning that Jordanian pilot.
I know there are various groups and armies battling them but the major players in the coalition in terms of wealth and military might, are still the western countries.

The one thing that has benefitted ISIS is the fact we in the west are too politically correct to win this. I do not mean to sound barbaric or inhumane but as General Sherman put it "War is hell." Unfortunately in any conflict there will be loss of innocent life. Collateral damage as the military like to put it. Here in the west our military options are constantly hampered because there would be outrage if some innocent people died at the hands of our bombs. Thus groups like ISIS can hide amongst the people and the towns they control by blending into the local population.

Now along comes a country such as Jordan. They are pissed and their citizens are demanding revenge. They may not have the military might of the US or Britain but they likely don't give a shit if they go and lay waste to some town where they think ISIS is hiding. As well this seems to have finally forced many high ranking Sunni Muslim clerics to come out against ISIS.

I'm not saying that this will be quick and that ISIS will be defeated purely through military means but I could see Jordan kicking it up a notch when it comes to bombing suspected terrorist positions.

Interesting perspective. I have to think on your premise a bit but will say I made a huge error of watching the video at a buddy's place last night - there were four of us there having beers watching hockey - I not only vomited I couldn't sleep last night at all. That was easily the most disturbing thing I have ever watched and I cannot get it out of my head.

 

[Five-Guns-West]

I have been "Over There"...as we call it, and you've hit the nail right on the head.
Those families, organizations ,villages or an entire countries have ongoing feuds that will go back generations or centuries. Jordan isn't any different in that aspect...They are a group of citizens that believe whole hearted, in the doctrine of vengence.
If they take out innocents, it's looked at as collateral damage and somewhat acceptable...They figure guilt by association.
ISIS is hesitating executing an American woman...I think maybe it's dawned on them that if they go through with that one...They will have the entire Northern War Machine descending on them....And thats probably a fairly accurate assumption.

Yep, they've got a female hostage who was some kind of aid worker or nurse or something like that. You gotta wonder what they'll do to her if they kill her. Hopefully something humane for pete's sake.

As for if ISIS has fucked up or not, western analysts are saying the latest slaying is a sign of desperation and they're running out of hostages. Actually they could have made it even worse for that poor pilot. He seemed like he was heavily drugged. It's apparently very common for victims in those countries to be heavily drugged before the deed. In Saudi Arabia that's what they do before they do the deed, unless the crime was especially bad. There was one lady accused of murder+adultery, and they did it without drugs. Some of the extremists supporting ISIS in the street are calling for bringing back the Ottoman caliphate's worst execution method, the khazouk.

As awful and horrible and everything else that offends us about what they've done, it seems to me they've held back. They've already thought of doing much worse but "luckily" we've been spared.

Some awful rumors are beginning to spread that Saudi Arabia is desperately trying to fight off ISIS from entering its borders along Iraq in the north, and Yemen in the south. Yemen is where Al-Queda of Yemen was situated that took responsibility for the Hebdo attacks in France. Not only is Saudi Arabia trying to fight it at the border, but there are wahabi sympathizers to ISIS within.

 

[Lo-ki]

Has ISIS fucked up?

They are seriously fucked up....

 

[bcneil]

Americans will have a shit fit when the video of that American nurse gets out.
The approval rating for sending in ground troops will skyrocket.

 

[dark shadow]

Love the way the Jordanian are retaliating
after the execution of their pilot. If the U.S.
don't have the balls to wipe out Isis ,then supply the
Jordanians with the military hardware to do the job for them.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Love the way the Jordanian are retaliating
after the execution of their pilot. If the U.S.
don't have the balls to wipe out Isis ,then supply the
Jordanians with the military hardware to do the job for them.

that's how isis was formed... the u.s. gave the syrian rebels a bunch of money and arms to get rid of assad, the president of syria

look where that got them

 

[Ratbert_2008]

that's how isis was formed... the u.s. gave the syrian rebels a bunch of money and arms to get rid of assad, the president of syria

look where that got them

I don't think that is accurate. When was that money and arms provided? When was ISIS formed? I don't think the math works.

On the other hand, the U.S. financing the Taliban against the Soviets...

 

[Larry Storch]

In 1997, a U.S. Department of Defense report stated, “the data show a strong correlation between U.S. involvement abroad and an increase in terrorist attacks against the U.S.” Truth is, the only way America can win the “War On Terror” is if it stops giving terrorists the motivation and the resources to attack America. Terrorism is the symptom; American imperialism in the Middle East is the cancer. Put simply, the War on Terror is terrorism; only, it is conducted on a much larger scale by people with jets and missiles.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/19/how-the-us-helped-create-al-qaeda-and-isis/

To be honest I briefly scanned the article, but it is a long history.

 

[sybian]

"The Mods here are more than welcome to delete this single post if they find it offensive...I don't have a problem with that"

I happen,.. very sadly,.. to have first hand knowledge of the policies of the Taliban...and I believe ISIS follows the same doctrine, although more extreme.
They control by fear, which is why we call them Terrorists.
There was a small village we rolled into that we heard there was an execution by the "Police" or Taliban.
A young woman had been caught stealing food, so the "Police"....had sexually brutalized her twin daughters in front of her, then hacked her apart in front of the two girls.
We couldn't determine if she had been shot first ,or butchered alive.
She was used as an example to the rest of the locals to not steal from the ruling "Government"
ISIS is doing the same thing...They use the dramatization of ending innocent human life as an example of fear...Once you see it you will never forget it.
My experience in that part of the world, talking to locals that are, for the most part, not educated or have a lot of access to world media is......They think the Taliban, and I would Imagine ISIS, is world wide.
They believe that they are in every country in the world...and I suppose to some extent that may be accurate. They do have their cells here that recruit people.
They believe there is no escaping them, and to immegrate to another place would be useless.
They have in fact accomplished total power in their small part of the world by fear, and the only way to keep control of it, is to keep killing...And the only way to stop their policies is to neutralize it with violence.
There is no negotiating with that mentality.....I've personally tried....and have the battle scars to prove my theory.

 

[uncleg]

I'm no expert on world politics or foreign affairs but I think ISIS made a big mistake killing/burning that Jordanian pilot.
I know there are various groups and armies battling them but the major players in the coalition in terms of wealth and military might, are still the western countries.

The one thing that has benefitted ISIS is the fact we in the west are too politically correct to win this. I do not mean to sound barbaric or inhumane but as General Sherman put it "War is hell." Unfortunately in any conflict there will be loss of innocent life. Collateral damage as the military like to put it. Here in the west our military options are constantly hampered because there would be outrage if some innocent people died at the hands of our bombs. Thus groups like ISIS can hide amongst the people and the towns they control by blending into the local population.

Now along comes a country such as Jordan. They are pissed and their citizens are demanding revenge. They may not have the military might of the US or Britain but they likely don't give a shit if they go and lay waste to some town where they think ISIS is hiding. As well this seems to have finally forced many high ranking Sunni Muslim clerics to come out against ISIS.

I'm not saying that this will be quick and that ISIS will be defeated purely through military means but I could see Jordan kicking it up a notch when it comes to bombing suspected terrorist positions.

...And the only way to stop their policies is to neutralize it with violence.
There is no negotiating with that mentality.....I've personally tried....and have the battle scars to prove my theory.

sybian...deleted most of your post in the quote for space....I do agree with it, in particular the part about violence. I have my own experience in that part of the world, plus two family members with 4 tours.

The problem the "West" has is morality....we try to fight a moral and just war against an immoral and unjust enemy. At least that's how we see it. JB says we are too politically correct, one way of putting it. Interesting how his version of "violence" is increased bombing, while I'm betting yours is somewhat more personal. My own version would be to go on the ground and go hunting.....start leaving ISIS heads piled up where ever you find them. My understanding is that U.S. & U.K. special ops personnel are engaged, but to a limited degree. Those limits have to come off. The West has to give the locals the edge, the momentum to defeat ISIS...and then pull back to let it be an Arab victory over extremists, otherwise it will breed a whole new brand of extremists. It will be a blood bath between Sunni and Shiite, but I think the West has to suck it up and let it be an Arab solution, not a "crusader" imposed one.

 

[plumbcrawl]

It is the Japanese that ISIS should be looking out for. They have played the part of pacifist since WWII but make no mistake they are no withering wallflowers and their people are pissed too. Japan isn't going to bomb or have government make proclamations in retaliation, it will be quiet and it will be brutal. They take honor pretty seriously...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The problem the "West" has is morality....we try to fight a moral and just war against an immoral and unjust enemy. At least that's how we see it. JB says we are too politically correct, one way of putting it. Interesting how his version of "violence" is increased bombing, while I'm betting yours is somewhat more personal.

I wasn't necessarily saying bombing is MY way to deal with this. I was merely using that as an example since currently bombing has been the only response from the West. Or the one they admit to.
I happen to agree that a more effective way of dealing with this is to start to terrorize the terrorists. I'd drop several special ops teams into the area and as you say let them go hunting. Leave the heads and the bodies for their buddies in ISIS to see. Infiltrate their areas and start picking them off with sniper fire and night time raids.
There was a person being interviewed on the BBC the other day who was talking about this tactic and the effect it would have on the foreign recruits. His point and I agree, was that while the hard core extremists who truly believe in their martyrdom may not care, these new recruits (foreigners from Europe and North America) will. Many of the foreigners who are there for various reasons (a lot likely upset with society because they couldn't get a date to the high school prom ) are not devout believers who buy into the whole "paradise and virgins" reward they will get for dying a martyr. You start stalking and killing a few of them and leaving the bodes well displayed and see what happens.

 

[sybian]

Yes Uncleg my version would be far more personal, but that was what I was trained to do, but we had the convieniance of "Back-up" from military air support....and I thank you for the recognition.
I also agree with J.B. ..Stack the bodies up like fire wood and see how the Non Arab mind reacts. They may find that the fleeting loyalty they so desperatley hang onto fades as quick as their oil reserves do, that funds them.
I know from my experience that....and this is just me geussing.....The ground troops there are probably a little more active than we are being told by the Government. Almost all Military actions are postponed and debriefed for a minimum of 24 hours before release to the Media.
To comment on the

"Paradise and Virgins".....Where would they find all those Virgins to service those turd hursts for an eternity?
I mean really??!! Have any of those guys looked at themselves in the mirror in the past few years?....Oh and another thing ..when they go into the bathroom....I'd like to introduce them to something in our Paradise.............It's called a SHOWER!!!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Americans will have a shit fit when the video of that American nurse gets out.
The approval rating for sending in ground troops will skyrocket.

Looks like ISIS may be trying to deflect the blame for this one.
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other...d-in-coalition-air-strike-in-syria/ar-AA94G84
They know they are going to take some big hits from the Jordanians so what better way to create second guessing within the coalition than to blame the death of an American, on the Jordanians.
I think she was either dead already (they waited a month before admitting to burning the Jordanian pilot) or they killed her and threw her body into the pile of rubble to make it look like she dies in the bombing. That way they avoid the US kicking it up a notch.

 

[bcneil]

Looks like ISIS may be trying to deflect the blame for this one.
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other...d-in-coalition-air-strike-in-syria/ar-AA94G84
They know they are going to take some big hits from the Jordanians so what better way to create second guessing within the coalition than to blame the death of an American, on the Jordanians.
I think she was either dead already (they waited a month before admitting to burning the Jordanian pilot) or they killed her and threw her body into the pile of rubble to make it look like she dies in the bombing. That way they avoid the US kicking it up a notch.

Yeah I saw that. Apparently all the Jordanian airstrikes where unsuccessful in killing a single ISIS member, just the American nurse. Talk about luck.

 

[1nitestan]

Has ISIS fucked up?

They are seriously fucked up....

Since day one.

The really fucked up thing about ISIS is that they are attracting angry young north american/european/wherever males who just wanna go fuck shit up. These retards (no disrespect to actual retards) just wanna kill people without the usual consequences. ISIS is fairly well financed, tech savvy, and led by former Saddam Hussein cronies who have propaganda training via the Russians. WW3 isn't far behind.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The issues in the Levant are no more and no less serious than with Boko Harum in Nigeria and requires exactly the same level of in theater response from the western world, as in none. If western persons want to go over there and get involved in joining these groups or joining other groups that are fighting them, Western countries have an obligation to try to identify them and provide information about them to the countries that they are traveling to so that they can be apprehended and jailed in those countries. If they return to Canada, they should be arrested and jailed for their activities.

But other than that, what interest do we have? Syria is not our ally nor is Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Lebanon, & on & on. And none of these countries are actual democracies worthy of the assistance of the free world. If random Canadian citizens choose to go into a war zone and get killed for their stupidity, be they NGOs or journalists or tourists, that is just nature clearing out the dead wood.

An entire middle east under the governance of ISIS would pose zero military threat to Canada & would have enough troubles governing the mix of ethnic and religious groups to have little capability or desire left to mess around in western countries with terrorist activities. The only reason they bother right now is to get western countries to do idiotic things like sending military forces into Iraq and Syria and provide them with the one thing they want: western invaders so that they can get Muslim people to rally to their cause to push the invaders out (and also take power locally).

We certainly are not sending the troops into Nigeria to fight extremists there and we didn't send them into Sudan to stop the genocide in Darfur either. The middle east has no greater strategic importance to Canada than either of those spots and the humanitarian need is as great or greater There has yet to be any attack on Canada by members of ISIS, only threats and acts by local criminals.

So why have we choosing to act exactly the way ISIS wants us to in the middle east rather than just letting the locals sort out their political differences?

What you say makes sense and I agree that it seems we pick and choose which conflicts we involve ourselves in.
You are correct that the atrocities committed by Boko Haram and others are just as barbaric.
I guess I'm seeing the involvement against ISIS as a response to the "clear and present danger" they present to us through their terrorist actions against us on our home soil.
Maybe that is an oversimplification but I'm just a simple old country boy.