Health Care: U.S. vs. Canada

[Robert Upndown]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/dr-dan...on-a-lesson-on-canadian-health-care-1.2570872

The article and the video are great. The assumptions from the other side are hilarious.

 

[lucifer1981]

The U.S healthcare is shit. If you don't have money or healthcare the ER basically will just leave you die there.

 

[canuck33660]

BUT we have a health care system that make it illegal to pay for one own heath costs even if we want to.

If I have the money to, why should I get to spend it on my own heath care.

To those that can't afford it ......... too fucking bad you should have worked harder and made more money.

I made lots of sacrifices so I could have a good career that enable me to make a good living why shouldn't I be able to spend it on my heath care without going out of the country.

And those health dollars that I spend out of the country stay out of the country.

Had I been able to spend it in Canada at least there would have been tax and economic spin offs that stay inside of Canada.

Those that do not support a two tiered health system are truly morons.

 

[Mellow]

I made lots of sacrifices so I could have a good living why should I be able to spend it on my heath care without going out of the country.

Because we have collectively decided as a society that that is the kind of attitude that we don't want in this country!

 

[canuck33660]

Well you will learn in a very short time that our current health care system cannot be sustained.

Hey Mellow just because you don't like my kind of attitude I can tell you the vast MAJORITY of people that I know and associate with agree with me.

And we are also part of this society and I suspect you WILL be in the minority soon.

As soon as the boomers start to really hit the heath care system it will implode without a significant increase in taxes or a change in policy to allow for self payment of health care.

 

[HankQuinlan]

BUT we have a health care system that make it illegal to pay for one own heath costs even if we want to.

If I have the money to, why should I get to spend it on my own heath care.

To those that can't afford it ......... too fucking bad you should have worked harder and made more money.

I made lots of sacrifices so I could have a good career that enable me to make a good living why shouldn't I be able to spend it on my heath care without going out of the country.

And those health dollars that I spend out of the country stay out of the country.

Had I been able to spend it in Canada at least there would have been tax and economic spin offs that stay inside of Canada.

Those that do not support a two tiered health system are truly morons.

Yeah! Fuck poor people. They're idiots. (I guess I am surprised that someone could watch the video and decide that the Senator wins the talking points. )

 

[PuntMeister]

Like every other parabolic curve projection of the 1970's that forecast we would be out of oil due to consumption, only have 12 square inches per person on the planet due to explosive population growth, and that we would all be dead due to disease mutation rates, it appears that life goes on. Other less flambouyant corrections offset the doomsayers every time. Now pardon me while I go out and enjoy our lovely March global warming sunshine.

-Punt.

 

[canuck33660]

Yeah! Fuck poor people. They're idiots. (I guess I am surprised that someone could watch the video and decide that the Senator wins the talking points. )

Didn't have to watch any of the video.

Been a sour point to me and I would suggest the silent majority that in our democracy we cannot spend our hard earned money on our own health care.

Our course the supporter of our current health care system are not interesting in debating this issue.

Nor are they willing to debate the fact that no one is talking about dismantling the current system except only to allow for those who wish to pay for their own procedures to do so.

 

[badbadboy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_health_care_systems_in_Canada_and_the_United_States

USA for some reason has never gotten its act together to care for its citizen's health. On a world wide basis they are ranked 37th overall. They are the most modernized nation on earth but Politics, big money from health care providers and the normal fucked up situation in Congress will keep them from any progressive health care plan for years to come.

Canada while definitely not perfect could actually make many improvements if people would have an open mind to change. Currently alternatives to our health care are a non starter between the Federal Government and Provinces. Every dollar spent in Independent Clinics is removed from the Federal Gov't transfer payment to those provinces.

If one were to look at European countries that have had "National Health" for a lot longer than Canada would see that those nations health plans have evolved over the decades. While the foundation National Health is still the key element to the British system, they have no less than five different tiers that work well within National Health. Those who have generous health coverage or the extra money to spend on their own health are able to do so. People who are on the lowest tier still get 100% coverage that would be similar to Canada 's health act.

You always hear of "shortage of beds", "not enough Med Surg Nurses", "not enough OR Time" as reasons for our 6 month to two year wait for surgery. Opening up independent clinics, hiring more nurses, OR Specialists will alleviate these crazy long waits for surgery. We do need to have this talk because out system is bleeding Canada and costing us nearly 12% of our GDP annually.

 

[PlayfulAlex]

...You always hear of "shortage of beds", "not enough Med Surg Nurses", "not enough OR Time" as reasons for our 6 month to two year wait for surgery. Opening up independent clinics, hiring more nurses, OR Specialists will alleviate these crazy long waits for surgery. We do need to have this talk because our system is bleeding Canada and costing us nearly 12% of our GDP annually.

Stated so eloquently...reason and logic can go a long way. Anger and spewing vitriol, not so much (hint hint, Canuck)...

Btw, excellent footage, thank you for sharing Robert (and people wonder why we come to the Perb lounge :nod!

 

[hornygandalf]

You always hear of "shortage of beds", "not enough Med Surg Nurses", "not enough OR Time" as reasons for our 6 month to two year wait for surgery. Opening up independent clinics, hiring more nurses, OR Specialists will alleviate these crazy long waits for surgery. We do need to have this talk because out system is bleeding Canada and costing us nearly 12% of our GDP annually.

So, Canada spends 12% (or 11.3%) of its GNP on health care, and although it is flawed, everyone does get coverage and it is seen as an example of how it can be done. How much does health care take of GNP in other countries:
US: 15.2-17.7% (depending on the source) with a significant number unable to access any care
OECD avg. 9.5%
France 11.6%
Japan 9.5%
United Kingdom 9.4%
New Zealand 10.3%
Australia 8.7%
Chile 7.5%
Mexico 6.2%
Singapore 4.0%
(numbers from OECD reports, though differing years in some cases)

Public funding is the main source of health funding in all OECD countries except Chile, Mexico and the US (avg. of 72.2% of total funding).
Canada may be a little bit higher than other developed countries, but it isn’t out-of-line. The US is the clear outlier here, with a significant number unable to access care. It is less clear what the health outcomes are in other countries.

I am yet to be persuaded that a private system is more efficient and effective in ensuring adequate coverage for the whole population. It maybe better for some segments of the population, but not for the country as a whole. Many countries have some form of multi-tier coverage, and this is probably the discussion that should be had here in Canada; a discussion as to the most efficient and best way to do that. As noted in the testimony in the video, adding private clinics doesn’t necessarily lead to lower wait times (in the instance given from Australia, it led to longer wait times). But, the discussion needs to be had as to the best way to handle this.

 

[badbadboy]

So, Canada spends 12% (or 11.3%) of its GNP on health care, and although it is flawed, everyone does get coverage and it is seen as an example of how it can be done. How much does health care take of GNP in other countries:
US: 15.2-17.7% (depending on the source) with a significant number unable to access any care
OECD avg. 9.5%
France 11.6%
Japan 9.5%
United Kingdom 9.4%
New Zealand 10.3%
Australia 8.7%
Chile 7.5%
Mexico 6.2%
Singapore 4.0%
(numbers from OECD reports, though differing years in some cases)

Public funding is the main source of health funding in all OECD countries except Chile, Mexico and the US (avg. of 72.2% of total funding).
Canada may be a little bit higher than other developed countries, but it isn’t out-of-line. The US is the clear outlier here, with a significant number unable to access care. It is less clear what the health outcomes are in other countries.

I am yet to be persuaded that a private system is more efficient and effective in ensuring adequate coverage for the whole population. It maybe better for some segments of the population, but not for the country as a whole. Many countries have some form of multi-tier coverage, and this is probably the discussion that should be had here in Canada; a discussion as to the most efficient and best way to do that. As noted in the testimony in the video, adding private clinics doesn’t necessarily lead to lower wait times (in the instance given from Australia, it led to longer wait times). But, the discussion needs to be had as to the best way to handle this.

IIRC most of those other countries all have multiple tier health care systems. At least the UK, France, NZ, Australia and Singapore are working with multiple tiers and maintaining a National Health System. Hence their lower costs than Canada IMHO. I am of the mind that their costs may in fact be the same as ours with individuals, corporations, health insurance companies paying the remainder.

All I know for a fact is our present system is nearly broke and the tax base to support it is wanting some tax relief instead of tax increases to keep paying for it. I do recall in that Michael Moore film on health care that there was an interesting segment with a British MD. Part of his pay package was documented improvement of his patients health. If he got a patient to lose weight or quit smoking he got some sort of bonus. Promoting health rather than treatment seems to be reasonable investment in people.

 

[hornygandalf]

I am of the mind that their costs may in fact be the same as ours with individuals, corporations, health insurance companies paying the remainder.

These figures are % of GDP for all health care expenditure, so included the private amounts as well. At least one of the charts I was looking at split out the public and private portions. So, that would take into account the expenditures happening in the tiers outside of the public system.

 

[badbadboy]

These figures are % of GDP for all health care expenditure, so included the private amounts as well. At least one of the charts I was looking at split out the public and private portions. So, that would take into account the expenditures happening in the tiers outside of the public system.

Then if that's the case, we as a nation are paying far too much for a system that is totally inefficient compared to other industrialized G20 Nations. One could argue that alternative methods of delivering health care need to be looked at because the current solution is broken. Endless wait times for procedures, replacing RN's with Nurses Aids in critical care areas to save money yet the institutions have an abundance of Suits working rather than Health Care Professionals. Utter madness.

I honestly don't see how one could argue that the current solution is The BEST for all of Canada?? We spend so much money on health care yet we lag behind other countries who spend a lot less on health care. It makes no sense to keep the present model as the end all be all solution.

 

[summerbreeze]

current solution is broken and plenty of time and effort going into how to fix

big problem is the union or unions

baby boomers getting older and decreasing population base (smaller families) to pay into the system through taxes so as health expense increases due to population bulge, contributor base shrinking

population base supplemented by immigration but some of the immigrants are not too enthusiastic about paying their share of taxes (mainland Chinese for instance)

privatization hybrid the way the UK does it would be a help but we are not there yet, too political

also private health care is looking at mainly treatments which require little long term support (treatment and go home) the far more expensive treatment of elder care left to the national medical programs

something like 90% of a person's healthcare occurs in the last 5 to 10 years of their life (approx, from memory)

on the brighter side, more people are into fitness as they get older and diet and self lifestyle management is improving

 

[badbadboy]

current solution is broken and plenty of time and effort going into how to fix

big problem is the union or unions

baby boomers getting older and decreasing population base (smaller families) to pay into the system through taxes so as health expense increases due to population bulge, contributor base shrinking

population base supplemented by immigration but some of the immigrants are not too enthusiastic about paying their share of taxes (mainland Chinese for instance)

privatization hybrid the way the UK does it would be a help but we are not there yet, too political

also private health care is looking at mainly treatments which require little long term support (treatment and go home) the far more expensive treatment of elder care left to the national medical programs

something like 90% of a person's healthcare occurs in the last 5 to 10 years of their life (approx, from memory)

on the brighter side, more people are into fitness as they get older and diet and self lifestyle management is improving

I agree with most of what you said except the Union part. In actual fact, the BCNU is a very weak institution now. Read about the Health Authorities mandate to reduce nursing positions with Care Aids. Vancouver Health Authority put out an action plan to implement more Care Aids to work side by side with RN's. It will mean about a 20% decline in nursing positions. The Vancouver Island Health authority backed down temporarily with the outcry from other health professionals but indicated the issue is not over yet.

The BCNU is not supporting Nursing Positions province wide. HEU has been a lame duck Union ever since the privatization of the cleaning staff and contracting out of the hospital meals 10 years ago.

The Unions are not really the problem at all. IMHO the stumbling block would be the Politicians in Ottawa. Even if it were ever proven to be a superior system, the NDP and other parties would make sure this became an election issue for the Conservative Government. This is a land mine that no one wants to stand upon.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

on the brighter side, more people are into fitness as they get older and diet and self lifestyle management is improving

do you have some stats on that or are you just guessing?

 

[UhOh]

Canadian healthcare is great, as long as you dont get sick

 

[summerbreeze]

stats on fitness and healthcare correlation are maintained by the province, the particapaction program introduced by the social credit party was where the concept of decreasing healthcare budget by increasing physical activity began

program proved to produce results over the years, not sure where the statistics would be kept on that one, NDP gutted the program in the Harcourt era in an effort to budget cut

the idea was to beef up amateur sports organizations and the community center infrastructure budgets to stimulate physical exercise, aggressive advertising program as well

baby boomers are quite a bit more active than previous generations, look at the seniors leagues with hockey, soccer, rugby, basketball, etc. but I do not have the stats on that, just personal observation

look at things like the seawall improvements and the number of people rollerblading, cycling, walking. those numbers are up substantially. people riding bikes to work downtown etc.

_______________________

with regard to the unions, yes not as strong as they once were. a lot of improvement in cost cutting efforts over the past 10 years but very reluctantly on the part of many in the healthcare sector

healthcare is 40% of the BC budget. originally healthcare funding was split 50/50 by the provinces and federal government

now the federal contribution is 5% with the provinces bearing 95% of the cost and trying to implement systems which can economize healthcare management

no one entity to blame, just in need of change as costs escalate and aging population bulge (baby boomers) begin impacting it more

not easy as the issue is highly emotional and everyone has a right to their opinions on it

my doctor friends claim that we are approaching a break point, meaning they are worried we are headed for a critical failure

some private clinics have sprung up and seem to be contributing however they are being challenged by both provincial and federal governments in court. recent ruling in Quebec allowed for private clinics and these guys are seeking a similar ruling

complex world we live in, its a wonder our governments actually work at all given how large our countries are.......

 

[summerbreeze]

and yes I agree with you, the problem is Ottawa hanging onto controlling the provinces by trying to enforce a government only healthcare system when every province is actively utilizing both private and public

workers compensation and ICBC will pay for claimants to go across the boarder and get paid for treatment in the US rather than have them off work collecting insurance while waiting for 6 weeks for government funded treatment