Honesty between the sexes: how much of it is feasible?

[tantalizeme]

Progress Report #1 (of a projected 5)

THE PLAN
But is it totally hopeless to make the fantasy of a spontaneous BJ outside the dance hall come true if I took determined steps to suggest it?

It's probably largely a numbers game.

If I charm up enough women in that dance hall and then ask each whether she'd be interested in going out to my car to allow us to get better acquainted, eventually I'm bound to come across one whose libido is sufficiently attuned to mine—so she'll say yes to my request of a BJ.

Stay tuned for how my plan works out.

Paid yet another visit to the old-folks dancehall.

No, I didn't carry out my plan...but late in the evening, during a dance, I had an interesting conversation with a cute-faced, short, spunky Vietnamese lady, probably in her 50s.

After warming her up with the usual small talk, I ask if she has a boyfriend.

"I no luck," she says, with a wistful grin. "If you know nice man for me, you tell me."

"Well, I've quite a few male friends," I say. "Depends on what you want. Most guys I know aren't super-monogamous."

I notice, the word "monogamous" meets with total incomprehension on her part.

"I want economical guy," she responds perkily.

"What, economical?" I ask. "You mean, an 'economically stable' guy? With a good job and income?"

"Yes, yes," she nods. "A guy who take care me."

"You want a guy who's willing to support you financially?" I say. "Wow, that's difficult to find nowadays. I think most men in this dance hall are looking for someone to have sex with."

"Sex? No," she says, "I just come here to dance." Then, thinking for a moment, she adds, "If they want that, they have to pay."

Instantly I'm on high alert. "You mean, if a guy wants to have sex with you, he has to pay money?"

"Of course," she answers zippily, matter-of-factly. "A woman has to prepare sex, wear make-up, dress nice. All cost money."

"Totally agree," I say and find my respect for this little lady immediately shooting up. "So you don't think men who pay for sex are bad, bad, bad?"

"Oh no," she answers, smiling. "I understand men. They need. But they have to pay."

The song ended, and thanking my dance partner I led her back to her seat.

I found her attitude refreshing. Hard to imagine that you'd find this kind of honesty-on-the-dance-floor with Western women, who're much more prone to strategic game-playing about sex.

Obviously, like for so many Asians, everything for this Vietnamese lady revolves around economic security. Sex is just another commodity she's willing to share, for a fair exchange. Reasonable enough.

I felt vaguely interested in striking a deal. But I didn't want to risk our fragile rapport. It seemed crass to ask how much she'd charge for a quick BJ in my car or FS at a nearby motel.

A sporadic amateur SP often has an unrealistic idea of what the going rate is, and her looks and service probably won't compare favorably with what's on offer through ERSlist and similar sources. So negotiations might turn out to be complex here.

It was also getting late, and I didn't really feel up to any hanky-panky.

So I decided, a conversation with this lady about her financial expectations would have to wait for another night. But I feel definitely encouraged by the sudden turn our conversation took, once I steered it around to sex.

I think the future is full of possibilities.

 

[crunkory]

Hey Tugela,

No, most of my posts aren't fiction. If you really want to know, they reflect my ongoing struggle to overcome an anti-sex upbringing and to own my sexuality—for example, by describing encounters with SPs as candidly as I can.

It's often people with joy-deprived lives who don't want to believe other people's pleasure-filled stories. Hope you're not in that situation, brother.

BTW, your contributions to this Board are a strange mix of astute critical comments and acerbic jibes. You've 1330(!) posts and zero reviews. What's motivating you to haunt an escort review forum?

As is true of others on this Board, you're obviously not a pooner. Are you perhaps a disgruntled female who makes herself feel better lashing out at pooners, sex tourists and pretty much everyone else?

Hell, because you both have similar opinions in the so-called "anti-sex" / pro-bully subtext thread, I thought you two were best friends or at least bed buddies.

 

[kauffman]

I’ve been on an honesty binge lately.

The other day, for example, I went out to a dance with mostly older folk. I was holding a provocatively dressed Korean mature in my arms. We were making small talk when she suddenly asked if I was married.

“Never been married,” I say.

my god. no one wants honesty. They just want more convincing lies the whole system would fall apart with honesty. People ask for this only because they have already created a story about the other they believe. But how often do you think the truth would be effective as a continuing philosophy. Do you think im attractive? No not at all. You are fat and smell funny and if you have to ask... WHy would it be a good thing to say this to someone. thats just mean.

“Why not?” she wonders.

Normally I’ve a ready reply: “Haven’t found the right lady yet.”

This answer tends to produce a predictable dialogue—with the woman asking what I mean by “the right lady,” and me saying, “Someone like you, perhaps.”

But yesterday I thought, what the hell. Why be phony? So I told my dance partner, “Some men are just not cut out for marriage. It's too restrictive. I find other types of relationships more congenial.”

English isn’t this lady’s first language, so perhaps she didn’t understand all my words. In any case, she looked perplexed, as if trying to process my answer. Eventually she said, “What do you mean?”

I felt in a mood to elaborate.

“Well, I want a relationship that’s loving and passionate, but my partner and I allow each other to have sex with other people too."

The lady seemed vaguely agitated and stopped talking, leaving the conversational space to me. I couldn’t resist.

“Personally, I avoid marriage like the plague. I often pay women for sex. It’s really the only feasible way for most men to have a healthy, satisfying sex life, without undue complications.”

I felt good—even though I realized, I could kiss goodbye any potential hop in the sack with this particular lady. Not that this was something I had set my sights on: her boringly conventional expectations would ensnare me in precisely the kind of complications I’m trying to avoid.

Will men ever be able to be honest with women about their sexuality? Can women stand the truth about men’s fantasies? Or is the need for hypocrisy between the sexes going to be endless?

my god. no one wants honesty. They just want more convincing lies the whole system would fall apart with honesty. People ask for this only because they have already created a story about the other they believe. But how often do you think the truth would be effective as a continuing philosophy. Do you think im attractive? No not at all. You are fat and smell funny and if you have to ask... WHy would it be a good thing to say this to someone. thats just mean. im not asking for honesty just cause someone else wants it doesnt mean i do. im looking for satisfaction for fulfillment of my needs and wants. I dont necessarily need to know all the personaly shit and perspectives someone has about me. Theyre around for some reason. Does it matter why

 

[tantalizeme]

Progress report #2 (of a projected 5): more honesty

my god. no one wants honesty. They just want more convincing lies the whole system would fall apart with honesty.

Honestly...things didn’t go too well at the dance last night.

So I practiced iron self-discipline and didn't release all day, to keep my motivational edge sharp. Still, I totally bombed out, in the most pathetic way.

Ended up dancing mostly with ladies I know, friendly and appreciative dance partners—but absolute non-prospects. One Western lady actually asked me to dance. She seemed quite giddy in my arms, but I couldn’t warm up to the idea of anything sexual with her.

I blew my chance to get to know any ladies with real erotic potential. I just need to be far more ruthless about how to allocate my time. It occurs to me that I might triage dancehall ladies, as follows (in reverse order of priority):

1. Not-pretty-enough-for-me ladies: Sadly, that's the majority. It's not that I'm super-picky about looks. In fact, my appearance requirements are much lower for casual sex than for a relationship. But even so, this dancehall is a wasteland. Quite possibly, my habits of pooning (and watching porn) have reset my sexual-interest threshold higher, in terms of looks, than where it would otherwise be?

2. Sexually dead-looking pretty ladies: I've noticed, many quite attractive ladies give off no sexy vibes at all, to speak of. They're mousily dressed and have none of that coquettish sparkle that makes a man hopeful there might be erotic potential. For example, I danced with a tallish Chinese lady with glasses who'd certainly be doable—but she’s just not smiley and communicative. Someone like her is too much of an uphill battle for my project.

3. Sexually alive-looking pretty ladies: These are really the only ones I should focus my attention on, but they were depressingly few and far between. To make matters worse, most other men seem to have a preference for these ladies too, so it was hard even to get a dance with one of them.

Moreover, their arrogance (or defensiveness?) is often palpable, and so is their unapologetic lack of interest in following a man's lead on the dancefloor. I guess, when a woman feels highly desirable, she often doesn’t think she needs to try hard.

I must learn to be ruthless from now on: rather than doing convenience dances or pity dances with the wrong women, I should just sit and observe—until I can seize the opportunity to pounce on a sexually alive-looking pretty lady.

I can always console myself with the thought that, just down the street from the dancehall, I know several micros and AMPs—where, for $120 to $180, much better sex can be had, with prettier ladies, than would realistically materialize with any civvies at this dance.

 

[crunkory]

if it's just all about sex for you, you should just stick to seeing escorts. Otherwise, leave your arrogance at the dancehall door and go for #1

 

[PlayfulAlex]

Honestly...things didn’t go too well at the dance last night.

So I practiced iron self-discipline and didn't release all day, to keep my motivational edge sharp. Still, I totally bombed out, in the most pathetic way.

Ended up dancing mostly with ladies I know, friendly and appreciative dance partners—but absolute non-prospects. One Western lady actually asked me to dance. She seemed quite giddy in my arms, but I couldn’t warm up to the idea of anything sexual with her.

...snip

I must learn to be ruthless from now on: rather than doing convenience dances or pity dances with the wrong women, I should just sit and observe—until I can seize the opportunity to pounce on a sexually alive-looking pretty lady.

I can always console myself with the thought that, just down the street from the dancehall, I know several micros and AMPs—where, for $120 to $180, much better sex can be had, with prettier ladies, than would realistically materialize with any civvies at this dance.

Tant, have you no interest in dancing whatsoever? Because, if that's the case, you are missing a fantastic opportunity to get noticed. Ladies absolutely love a guy that dances well. It sounds like they're picking up on the fact that you're not there for the dancing, you're there for the sexual opportunities. Seriously, buddy, ladies can smell that a mile away. It is not attractive.

You, of all fellas, should know that a lady needs to be wooed, and this includes on the dance floor. I have a friend who dances extremely well; he puts 3-4 nights a week into his dance classes. He dances with a different lady every song, they are literally waiting for a chance to dance with him. He's not a particularly good-looking guy but he puts on the 'ritz' and the ladies are gaga for him! He barely sees the lady's face, they are a dance partner to him, and he may not remember them the following Saturday. But the ladies are there waiting for him, hoping to get a chance with him.

And then they get together for dance practice in the afternoon. Meanwhile, this guy has sex with none of them. He just wants to dance. And the ladies keep lining up.

If you put the energy and effort into the dancehall, that you put into the pooning bag and the Asian aunties, I'm sure even you'd be surprised at your results.

The complexity of human relationships is real...

 

[thebuttdance continues]

Tant, have you no interest in dancing whatsoever? Because, if that's the case, you are missing a fantastic opportunity to get noticed. Ladies absolutely love a guy that dances well. It sounds like they're picking up on the fact that you're not there for the dancing, you're there for the sexual opportunities. Seriously, buddy, ladies can smell that a mile away. It is not attractive.

You, of all fellas, should know that a lady needs to be wooed, and this includes on the dance floor. I have a friend who dances extremely well; he puts 3-4 nights a week into his dance classes. He dances with a different lady every song, they are literally waiting for a chance to dance with him. He's not a particularly good-looking guy but he puts on the 'ritz' and the ladies are gaga for him! He barely sees the lady's face, they are a dance partner to him, and he may not remember them the following Saturday. But the ladies are there waiting for him, hoping to get a chance with him.

And then they get together for dance practice in the afternoon. Meanwhile, this guy has sex with none of them. He just wants to dance. And the ladies keep lining up.

If you put the energy and effort into the dancehall, that you put into the pooning bag and the Asian aunties, I'm sure even you'd be surprised at your results.

The complexity of human relationships is real...

hear-hear

What happened to wooing and attracting a woman first? I'm a terrible dancer, but just enjoying being out there, doing what I'm doing, with people at a dancehall goes a long way. That equals charm... plus gets me laid

 

[thebuttdance continues]

He's used to the hobby version of wooing - handing over the cash! :eyebrows:

Before this "hobby" and forum, I didn't know there were so many guys who forgot that attracting women requires building a rapport, making them feel comfortable, and... flirting with them! If you're sweet and charming, a social outing can turn into a one night stand.

Like Playfulalex mentioned, Ladies can smell desperation and creepiness a mile away like hot wax, and will evacuate.

Otherwise, if it's just so direct for sex, just hand over the cash bub.

 

[lenny]

And then they get together for dance practice in the afternoon. Meanwhile, this guy has sex with none of them. He just wants to dance. And the ladies keep lining up.

How sad & boring.

I have no interest in "dancing", except for the boob boom kind.

And here is a real "lineup of ladies" that i intend to sample in a few weeks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN-2OAmXIIk

 

[thebuttdance continues]

Leisure Suit Lenny. How sad.

 

[thebuttdance continues]

 

[PlayfulAlex]

How sad & boring.

I have no interest in "dancing", except for the boob boom kind.

And here is a real "lineup of ladies" that i intend to sample in a few weeks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN-2OAmXIIk

I guess my friend doesn't think so!

My point was that, in someone else's shoes, say the inimitable Tant, he could turn the get-togethers into more sexy territory, I'm sure. These ladies are more than willing to line up for this guy, and they're trying to get themselves invited over for dance practice. So, with the right attitude, things could very possibly go Tant's way!

And yeah, Lenny, if you don't wanna ballroom, it's no place for you! You clearly have lots of other options! :nod:

 

[lenny]

I guess my friend doesn't think so!

My point was that, in someone else's shoes, say the inimitable Tant, he could turn the get-togethers into more sexy territory, I'm sure. These ladies are more than willing to line up for this guy, and they're trying to get themselves invited over for dance practice. So, with the right attitude, things could very possibly go Tant's way!

And yeah, Lenny, if you don't wanna ballroom, it's no place for you! You clearly have lots of other options! :nod:

As you've described him your friend would fit the profile of a homo who goes dancing for the workout, or one who's had a sex change, or a guy with no sex drive due to biological or psychological issues, or one who hasn't yet discovered 10% of his orgasmic pleasure potential.

Mr T could pretend to like dancing (the hook) in order to get sex with women (his prey, the fish), but how would that differ from other guys who play act the game of decieving women into thinking they like them, but really only want to dance the jackhammer in their pussies? I thought this thread was about "honesty between the sexes" rather than detailing methods on how to hypnotize, suck in, or otherwise "romance" females into bed?

Furthermore, if women are so great at picking up on a guy's intentions, your method for Mr T would fail, since becoming a dancing wiz would not change his bottom line. However IME women tend to be wrong about as often as not, often reading into things what has not been stated, based on their unreliable assumptions, feelings & imaginations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._T

 

[thebuttdance continues]

Damn leisure suit, you must be one of those guys who read too much of that bullshit waste of paper called the game. Just be proud and honest in yourself. When you're honest with yourself, you'll be honest with a woman and they'll be honest with you too (good EQ required).

Mr. T: I pity the foool!

 

[tantalizeme]

Progress report #3 (of a projected 5): The mess one gets into with civvies...

Before this "hobby" and forum, I didn't know there were so many guys who forgot that attracting women requires building a rapport, making them feel comfortable, and... flirting with them! If you're sweet and charming, a social outing can turn into a one night stand.

In my ongoing quest for honesty between the sexes—which I'd like to culminate with a BJ in my car—I checked out a very different dance place yesterday.

Before paying the entrance fee, I stand by the door and survey the scene. The crowd is all Asian, except for one other Western prowler. I notice men sitting by themselves and women bunched up in groups.

Finding the atmosphere unappealing, I turn to leave when a Chinese gent comes up to me.

"Lots of ladies here wanna dance with you," he says optimistically, urging me to stay.

Just the push I needed. I pay and sit down in the darkest corner of the hall, letting several songs go by. I feel out of place, my prowling intentions glaringly transparent. The longer I wait, the less I can motivate myself to ask anyone to dance.

I'm thinking of packing it in—when a short older lady with buck teeth approaches my seat. Turns out, she remembers me from a dance class I recently took. We head out on the floor for a Salza.

The 7-min workout of whirling her around does the trick. I feel a surge of energy. Thanking the lady I send her off and approach a tallish younger woman sitting nearby with friends.

"Keyi gen ni tiaowu ma? (Can I dance with you?)" I say, flashing her my most harmless grin.

She hesitates, looks at her friends as if to ask permission, then gets up. She lets me lead her on the floor for a ChaCha.

Her dancing skill is non-existent, as is her English. But her willingness to dance with me reinforces my momentum. I roam the hall and ask several other ladies as well. Only one says no.

It helps that the women outnumber men who're able and willing to dance. They're also more attractive, on average, than the women at that other dancehall. Wow, I'm thinking, this place is a potential bonanza.

Anywhere else I could hardly get these ladies to talk to me, but in this magic place I can ask one after another to dance and press their bodies close to mine!

About an hour later, I chance upon a lady who stands out. Marianna is sweet-faced and graceful, probably in her late 30s, taller than average and dressed with striking elegance. And she wears a subtly intoxicating fragrance.

She knows no English, but is excited by my basic Mandarin, and even more excited by my training and confidence as a dancer. She dances like someone who had private lessons but very little actual practice.

Many women who're learning to dance go through a period when dancing becomes their most obsessive passion in life, and Marianna seems at that stage. My efforts to lead her into various figures, without going too far beyond her limitations, are rewarded with smiley, effervescent enthusiasm.

She takes an interest in where I live, why I speak Mandarin, and when I'll come back to this dancehall again. She also asks me to dance with two friends she's with.

Her friends are the stumpy type and lousy dancers. But hoping to ingratiate myself with Marianna, I grin and bear a few dances with them.

Closing time is approaching. On the dot of midnight, Marianna and I do the last dance together, a Slow Waltz.

My easily triggered erotic interest is going through the roof—but I know it's premature to ask Marianna for a BJ in the car. As I lead her back to her seat, I decide to give her my business card.

Suddenly, a scowling Chinese gentleman blocks our path and reaches for Marianna's hand. In fact, I noticed him earlier outside the main door, smoking in the company of other guys.

For a moment, the fellow and I just stare at each other. He's about half a head shorter than me and handsome in a Chinese way, but there's a hostile fierceness about him.

Very strange, I'm thinking. What's going on?

I abort my idea to hand Marianna my business card and control my impulse to give her a good-night hug.

There's obviously a connection between Marianna and this fellow. Perhaps he's her non-dancing husband? Possibly he observed his wife having a good time with me and didn't like it?

Then one of Marianna's friends whispers in my ear, "Go, go!"

My survival instincts tell me, better not mess with this fellow. My Asian brothers tend to be sociable, humble, polite, clever, friendly, generous and hospitable—but ridiculously concerned about not losing face.

And observing his SO's attraction to a Western guy, especially in front of male friends, is clearly an explosively face-losing situation for any Asian man.

So I say to Marianna, "Thank you, good night" and beat a hasty retreat.

On the way to my car it dawns on me: this guy perfectly fits the stereotype of a Triad boss, and Marianna is his kept woman! Clearly, I invaded his sexual territory.

A Chinese friend recently informed me that some of the prettiest Asian ladies in Vancouver dancehalls are mistresses of Triad gangsters. "Don't get too close to these ladies," my friend warned me. "Otherwise you'll get beaten up—or killed."

I'm grateful to Triad gangsters for ensuring us a steady supply of delightful Chinese SPs in Vancouver. But I'd certainly not want to risk a gangster's personal hostility and end up in the crosshairs of his gun.

Driving home I realize, there's no chance of getting Marianna to give me a BJ in my car. The Triad guy would kill us both. He's probably giving her a hard time right now for dancing with me tonight.

I'm not even sure it's wise for me ever to return to this dancehall. There I was, in romantic heaven, and here I'm now, in emotional hell.

That's life, I'm thinking—things go splendid, then abruptly everything falls apart. Naive of me to think, even for moment, that a woman as lovely as Marianna would be free!

Come to think of it, quite a few of the $120 SPs out there are just as pretty. So no need to get fixated on someone who'd put my physical safety at risk. On to greener pastures!

 

[Sleepmonger]

Wow, for some reason when i scanned through this post I read it as an awesome metaphor for a night of overindulgance at a local micro.
I think I've read through too many of tant's reviews lately...

"a very different kind of dance place"
"paying the entrance fee"
"The crowd is all Asian, except for one other Western prowler"
"Finding the atmosphere unappealing, I turn to leave"
"Lots of ladies here wanna dance with you,"
"she remembers me from a dance class I recently took"
"The 7-min workout of whirling her around does the trick. I feel a surge of energy. Thanking the lady I send her off"
"Can I dance with you?)" I say, flashing her my most harmless grin. "
"Her dancing skill is non-existent, as is her English. But her willingness to dance with me reinforces my momentum."
"They're also more attractive, on average, than the women at that other dancehall"
"Anywhere else I could hardly get these ladies to talk to me, but in this magic place I can ask one after another to dance and press their bodies close to mine!"
"She takes an interest in where I live, why I speak Mandarin, and when I'll come back to this dancehall again. She also asks me to dance with two friends she's with.
"Her friends are the stumpy type and lousy dancers. But hoping to ingratiate myself with Marianna, I grin and bear a few dances with them.
Closing time is approaching. On the dot of midnight, Marianna and I do the last dance together, a Slow Waltz.
My easily triggered erotic interest is going through the roof......."

I'll admit confusion in several parts but you have to admit he has created a reasonable metaphor.

Stay safe

 

[PlayfulAlex]

Well, I have to acknowledge that you turned on the dancing charm, tant, and you got better results than your last report. Too bad about Mr. Heavy; yeah, even a guy's gotta be careful not to engage with the wrong element.

Anyway, I think you're onto something! Happy Ballroom!

 

[yazoo]

Wow Tant - sounds like you got pretty close to the third rail. Were you aware that it was electrified before your guardian angel whispered "Go, Go"

It seems like a bit of a weird social situation. Guys all hanging out Al Capone style while their women are inside trapped in their gilt cages. You almost expect some guy in a suit with a tommy gun to come in like the old black and white movies.

And I imagine no thought of mano a mano honesty. "Dude, I want your woman to give me a bj in the car"

 

[grusse]

sounds like an evening of excitement,tinged with a very real hint of danger.

the expression "dodge a bullet" could possibly be used here.

I admit to curiousity,or maybe confusion,by your phrase, "handsome in a Chinese way" Can you elaborate on this?

 

[tantalizeme]

Thanks for the empathy & encouragement

It seems like a bit of a weird social situation. Guys all hanging out Al Capone style while their women are inside trapped in their gilt cages. You almost expect some guy in a suit with a tommy gun to come in like the old black and white movies.
And I imagine no thought of mano a mano honesty. "Dude, I want your woman to give me a bj in the car"

sounds like an evening of excitement,tinged with a very real hint of danger.
the expression "dodge a bullet" could possibly be used here.
I admit to curiousity,or maybe confusion,by your phrase, "handsome in a Chinese way" Can you elaborate on this?

Sure appreciate a few loyal readers' feedback on my saga of going BJ hunting in local dancehalls. Hope, at some point, I'll have a Happy Ending to report.

Right now I've a few irons in the fire, ladies whose goodwill I'm cultivating. Too much honesty too soon—just springing my fantasy on a stranger out of the blue—clearly isn't going to be effective.

Brother grusse: The phrase "handsome in a Chinese way" was simply meant to suggest hard-to-verbalize differences in the features that Chinese women perceive as handsome in Chinese men as opposed to Western men. There're some interesting examples of "handsome in a Chinese way" here: http://ca.search.yahoo.com/search?ei=UTF-8&fr=crmas&p=handsome+Chinese+men

Brother yazoo: You're right, that place has a weird feel to it. A bunch of smoking gangster types standing outside while letting their women dance inside—mostly with each other and with Chinese beta males. When a Western gorilla like me comes along, that really throws a wrench in the works.

Given that my quest is all about honesty, perhaps you're right—I should have had a man-to-man talk with this fellow. I might have said the following:

"Hei germen, wo hen gaoxing renshi ni! Zhe yi wei shi ni taitai? Ta shi làmèi. Wo zheng zhunbei wen ta, zai che li gei wo koujiao. Xiwang ni bu jieyi?" / "Hey buddy, good to meet you! That's your wife? Hot babe. Was just going to ask her to give me a BJ in the car. Hope you don't mind."

Wish I could have plucked up my courage to stand my ground. I should have challenged this guy to a duel over Marianna—winner take all.

Which lady doesn't love to see men killing each other over her pussy? Does wonders for her self-esteem.