Honesty between the sexes: how much of it is feasible?

[Pillowtalk]

Another great summation by tant which completely misses the point, and lays blame solely on everyone except himself, while applauding anyone who appears to agree with him lol.

Well done again. fwiw, you as usual still cannot read women at all, can you? This happens when you really don't care what they actually have to say.


You could learn much if you opened your mind and your heart to anyone other than yourself.

Unless you now claim to speak for and represent all men, excepting filmgeek and georgie, of COURSE, you really should try to avoid making blanket statements about what women think.

 

[crunkory]

Will men ever be able to be honest with women about their sexuality? Can women stand the truth about men’s fantasies? Or is the need for hypocrisy between the sexes going to be endless?

One's sexuality and promiscuity are two different things.

And "paying for it" and "playing the field" to sleep with many women are two different categories of achievement; the former statement will especially deter "normal world" women when referring to it in honesty.

Feasibly, you won't get laid by your dance partner in your story with that statement of honesty, but then you can always go pay for it after you dance ends

 

[lenny]

And I think "paying for it" and "playing the field" to sleep with many women are two different categories of achievement; the former statement will especially deter "normal world" women when referring to it in honesty.

Which is a main reason why i seldom even entertain, let alone seriously consider, the idea of sex or a relationship with a non pro. I know how women think.

you really should try to avoid making blanket statements about what women think.

You know that look that women get when they want to have sex? Me neither.
- Steve Martin

"Men Look for Sex and Find Love. Women Look for Love and Find Sex."

"Just because he has fun with you doesn’t mean he wants you as his girlfriend"

http://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/men-look-for-sex-and-find-love-women-look-for-love-and-find-sex/

 

[PlayfulAlex]

Posts 18 + 22 Pillowtalk and PlayfulAlex – You both seem to be hung up on “Free pussy”. While criticizing Tant about saying what he wants to find, you show a lot of yourselves, or at least open yourselves up to maybe being misunderstood. What I read into your references about “Free pussy” is that you think it a commodity to be bought, sold and traded, but certainly not enjoyed. Not everyone is an SP who see’s sex as work and a vagina as a money making tool. It sounds like your saying women only have sex for money.

Maybe that was your intent, maybe it was not, but that is what I thought whilst reading about you complaining about free sex. I would imagine others ‘read’ the same.

It's never quite fair to lump two people's comments together, as if we think the same (I have no idea who pillowtalk is). Although you may have not fully comprehended my meaning, tant clearly did, if you see his comments re: my comments.

Everything between humans requires an exchange. Free sex and free love are long-standing terms, made popular during the 60's. They are not making reference to whether there is an exchange for cash or not. The implication is that there is a mutually-agreed-upon exchange, whatever that may be.

I have made it perfectly clear that I believe in making one's intentions known. Thus, if a gentleman wanted a fuck buddy, a friends-with-benefits relationship, or a date with the purposes of determining if I might qualify for a potential mate, I just prefer the truth. Then, once I hear what he's after, I can make a decision, based on if it coincides with what I want.

Tant has made it perfectly clear that he wants more sex without the emotional trappings and entanglements of a relationship and, for his honesty, he does have my respect... and he seems to recognize that. His ideal ladies would be looking for the same. Alternatively, he finds that SPs are also available without said trappings, for a small fee. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

 

[AA_Train]

I enjoy honesty, no matter what is between your legs. I am a straight shooter, blunt when the situation calls for it, and will always give you the real deal. I cannot stand fakes. And I don't think there has to be a gender gap, or inequality, or whatever you want to call it when it comes to honesty. People are people

I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!!! Too bad most of society doesn't think the same way.

Yes, honesty is the best policy, regardless of gender.

That's why it really bugs me when I meet someone, and they tell me one thing...then, after I get to know them better, they tell me something that is the direct opposite of what they told me originally.

So, to get in my pants, he'll tell me that he's looking for a committed monogamous relationship. Once we're together, he says, hey let's check out that swingers party! Fuck! If you had told me that you were into swinging, that you still wanted lots of sexual variety and didn't want to settle down sexually with just one lady, I would still have liked and respected you, maybe even fucked you! But now I hate you because you scammed me into getting into a close relationship with you, only to spring this on me once you got what you wanted! Get lost, asshole!

This is EXACTLY what happened to me with my last relationship. She told me she only wanted to be with me and was swinging the whole time and wanted to "introduce me slowly to the whole scene." I have no moral objection to swinging, it's just not for me. I dumped her pretty quick because she was dishonest with me from the beginning. Also, it put my health and safety at risk because even though she was pretty diligent about wearing protection, how the fuck do I know she is taking the same precautions with others? Some of you guys may think I'm crazy for letting her go, but duplicity is one thing I cannot stand for.

I think one's sexuality and promiscuity are two different things.

Indeed they are. Promiscuity is about frequency while sexuality is about your preferences. The words are even spelled differently

 

[AA_Train]

The sexually healthy type: Here I'd have to include AA_Train, Lenny, BadgerJohn and myself.

Some people get the single most important dose of life's meaning from their jobs, or a hobby like golf, or from shopping, or from raising a brood of kids. Well, some of us—and this illustrious company includes no lesser lights than authors Naomi Wolf and Serge Kreuz—get it from the many varieties of erotic passion.

But there's just no realistic way for most men—especially those beyond a certain age who aren't ridiculously rich or otherwise unusually endowed—to satisfy their sexual appetite without availing themselves of paid erotic services. (This is convincingly argued, with empirical support, e.g. in Catherine Hakim's book Sexual Capital.)

---
I thank fellow PERB members who're in favor of women and men being more honest with each other. And perhaps, just perhaps, we can figure out how women and men can have good relationships that don't involve monogamy?

That's some of PERB's luminaries you've included me with. I guess I've finally arrived in the big leagues after 6 years on this board. Now I know how Johnny Bower felt when he finally made it to the show

Truth is at 31, I am at a point where I am confident with who I am, my opinions, my outlook, my actions. I don't think I am perfect by any means but i am unapologetically myself. If you like me, great. If not, it's no skin off my nose. As long as you don't let your dislike of me get in the way of me living my life, I could care less. I don't need other people's approval in order for me to feel good about myself. I still appreciate praise and respect constructive criticisms, but I don't let either of them define me.

I still want a monogamous relationship with somebody and I believe I can have a satisfying long term relationship with only one sexual partner. I just don't want to have to be with someone just to be with them, nor should I feel forced to be in such a relationship because it is what is expected of me. The great thing about pooning is I can still have my sexual needs satisfied while I continue to find that person and not feel like I have to settle for someone just so I can have those needs met. I find that quite empowering.

If that's considered healthy, then I guess i am as fit as a fiddle

 

[tantalizeme]

A fantasy—and a plan

I. THE FANTASY

I went back to the dance hall where I met that Korean mature.

The place was humming with older folk of both genders—but I regret to say, the Korean lady pulled a no-show. Hope it's not because I scared her off.

Last week, after our heart-to-heart talk about marriage, she had just wordlessly wandered back her seat. I suspect, from her point of view, our conversation didn't go well.

I'd like to indulge in an idle flight of fancy now and imagine how the conversation might have turned out differently. I stress, the following is fiction—based on how I'd ideally love to see events unfold.

ME: "You asked if I'm married? No, I've always avoided marriage. I often pay women for sex. It's really the only feasible way for most men to have a healthy sex life free of complications."

HER: "Must be tough, to have to pay for sex. Guess your girlfriend can't keep up with you?"

ME: "Well, that's the choice I've made: to keep my sexuality in high gear, by hook or by crook."

HER: "You seem to be a nice man, clean, well-groomed, well-spoken. Maybe I can help you out, if you want."

ME: ""Help me out how?"

HER: "You got your car parked outside?"

ME: "Sure."

HER: "Why don't we go to your car to talk, get comfortable, and who knows? Perhaps we can loosen a few buttons and do a little no-strings-attached play?"

ME: "Wow, you're my type of lady. Let's go!"

We finish the dance, and I feel a warm surge of anticipation rippling through my body. "Let me just stop in at the washroom," I say.

In the men's washroom I give my knob a quick soapy rinse, then we sneak out of the building holding hands. We hop in the back seat of my car, conveniently parked in a dark corner of the lot.

I put on a CD with groovy music, and we smooch tentatively while she places a hand on the zipper of my pants. I unzip it for her and direct her hand inside my Calvin Klein underpants.

She squeezes my soldier unhurriedly while I let my fingers travel up her dress. With one hand I massage her crotch through the panties, with the other I scoop up her titties under the bra.

As my soldier begins to solidify, she whispers, "May I?" and bends down to start sucking. Once I reach full tumescence, she accelerates and intensifies the suction.

Tasting my precum seems to make her even more eager. Normally I'd delay my orgasm, but given our somewhat compromising situation, I just yield to my first urge to blow and unload in several spurts into her tightly closed mouth.

She doesn't flinch but sucks me dry and gulps the whole load down, then says smiling:

HER: "Just what the doctor ordered. A concentrated dose of nutrients."

ME: "That felt terrific. For a non-professional you sure know how to give a superduper BJ."

HER: "Well, perhaps you can reciprocate some day with that cookie monster of yours. Want to head back in to the dance?"
---

II. THE PLAN

Now back to reality: would this sort of scenario ever actually happen?

It's clearly not realistic to expect a woman to take this much initiative—especially not an Asian woman who's not articulate in English and wouldn't be able to clue into any sort of double entendre.

But is it totally hopeless to make the fantasy of a spontaneous BJ outside the dance hall come true if I took determined steps to suggest it?

It's probably largely a numbers game.

If I charm up enough women in that dance hall and then ask each whether she'd be interested in going out to my car to allow us to get better acquainted, eventually I'm bound to come across one whose libido is sufficiently attuned to mine—so she'll say yes to my request of a BJ.

Stay tuned for how my plan works out.

 

[crunkory]

That's a large amount of self-serving thought and wordcount...

men and women are there to find dancing partners, do some salsa, some ballroom dancing; since when does that transition into a bj quickie in a parked car outside the dance hall?! Oversexed?

I'm sure your charmless honesty will creep out 100% of the women you approach at the dancehall, resulting in not only no parking lot bj, but also no dance partner, as per your report

 

[PlayfulAlex]

...Now back to reality: would this sort of scenario ever actually happen?

It's probably largely a numbers game.

If I charm up enough women in that dance hall and then ask each whether she'd be interested in going out to my car to allow us to get better acquainted, eventually I'm bound to come across one whose libido is sufficiently attuned to mine—so she'll say yes to my request of a BJ.

Stay tuned for how my plan works out.

My answer is yes, absolutely, this scenario can happen, because I have done it, almost precisely like that! Only it wasn't a bj, it was the full-meal deal. And then this gentleman and I continued a fuck-buddy relationship for the next 5 years. His place, my place, my car, his truck...depending on the circumstances. And it was honest and open, and we both knew what we were doing, and why we were doing it. I appreciate honesty...

 

[PlayfulAlex]

Actually, you got me.
I’m guilty of a drive-by-post due to lack of time, something I criticize others for.
I’m sorry, that was wrong.

After re-reading what you had posted, I still think you’re being a little hard on Tant, but I shouldn’t have lumped you in with another, Pillowtalk, as her post was more the target of my reply.

Peace

Peace back!

 

[tantalizeme]

What does it take for a woman to develop such a wonderful attitude toward sex?

My answer is yes, absolutely, this scenario can happen, because I have done it, almost precisely like that! Only it wasn't a bj, it was the full-meal deal. And then this gentleman and I continued a fuck-buddy relationship for the next 5 years. His place, my place, my car, his truck...depending on the circumstances. And it was honest and open, and we both knew what we were doing, and why we were doing it. I appreciate honesty...

Hi Playful,

I'd be amiss not to thank you for your much-needed encouragement in my planned endeavor.

Sure helps silence any negative self-talk I'm sometimes prone to—and which killjoys like crankory easily reinforce.

Now I'd certainly not be averse to a "whole-meal deal" in the car myself—in fact, it's one of my favorite places for spontaneous trysting—but with a newly recruited female stranger this would probably be an unrealistic objective.

Ladies with chutzpah like yours, Alex, seem so rare (at least in my age category) that I count them among the wonders of the world. I find your contributions on this Board endlessly inspiring.

Here's an example of the kind of car-sex scenario that would intrigue me, with lots of verbals—except that I'm thinking of doing it under the cover of darkness.

Granted, the beautifully nasty-talking female in this video is about 30 times more attractive than any lady I could hope to interest from that dance hall.

http://xhamster.com/movies/1440799/hot_blonde_suck_cock_in_the_car.html

 

[Tugela]

I think you were doing OK until the part about telling her you pay women for sex. You can talk about not wanting to settle down or needing your freedom but when you start telling women you pay for sex... it's going to go south pretty fast. Being a playboy and playing the field or even being kind of a sugar daddy for younger women is one thing... categorically paying for it, trust met they don't get it and it won't go over well.

No, because all women understand that any guy who has reasonable charisma is not going to need to pay for it. So, when Tant tells them when he claims to have said, he is basically confessing to what sort of person he is really like, and few women are going to find that appealing.

 

[Tugela]

oh, this tired out ridiculous concept again

But it is true! Guys who really can talk to women with ease don't have to pay for it, nor do they have to invest huge amounts of effort.

The same thing applies to charismatic women btw, they are never lonely.

If things don't work out they just move on, because there are 100 new people they could meet just around the corner, and they know it.

 

[Tugela]

I stress, the following is fiction—based on how I'd ideally love to see events unfold.

I think that is probably true about most of what you post bud.

 

[crunkory]

That's crunkory

Build some charisma so you won't have that negative self-talk

Developing into a good dancer would be a start to charming the ladies on the dance floor, ...and then transition to the parking lot

 

[PlayfulAlex]

...Hi Playful,

I'd be amiss not to thank you for your much-needed encouragement in my planned endeavor.

Sure helps silence any negative self-talk I'm sometimes prone to...

Honestly, tant, I'm not trying to encourage or discourage you. I just had to say that your quest isn't ridiculous or unimaginable. I just believe in honesty and I know that it can exist between the sexes.

I'm currently not at a place in my life where I find myself interested in such things as swinging or NSA sex. But it wouldn't be fair for me to criticize those that were.

Also, I see that there are various local dances you may wish to attend, if you can't get any action from the civvies! http://www.bonbonclub.ca

 

[mimi]

Honesty between sexes is an 'ideal' concept. I mean, ideally we would like to be completely honest with each other, right? It is what we feel when we first meet and fall in love; we will always be faithful and honest. mmmm....I am a very honest person, perhaps too honest, and I have found through the years that it doesn't always work well. There are things that people really don't want to know about, especially if it is not going to interfere with the relationship; in other words, if it is not relevant.

At the end of the day, and as we age, we have to consider where we will be when we are old and gray and who will be standing beside us. Who do you want as a life partner to move into those years when young women view you as an old man (and many will be thinking 'that dirty old man')

Those cheeky and sassy attitudes that make young people seem charismatic and adventurous will seem crass and disgusting when we pass a certain age. The old fellow cracking sly jokes with the young nurse in the geriatric ward is not viewed with the same enthusiasm as the handsome younger man who does the same to a woman he meets at (pick one) an event. Life is cruel.

So, when nature robs you of your outer glory, and you are living within your means on retirement savings, do you want to spend the rest of your days alone?

I understand the fear of losing that delicious sensation of adventure (interesting information on the role of dopamine and oxytocin in relationships), but in the long run is it that difficult to balance a serious relationship and your hobby? Is it possible to exercise discipline and make concessions?

Anyone who has been through a nasty divorce and seen their hard earned money and investments plundered unjustly has always got that little germ in the brain that sees 'red' when in a new relationship; I understand that, too. Is it really important to be that honest if you have found a way to balance your life?

Many men on here seem to do just that. Hatrick has been successful at it for years and his occasional mention of his SO shows a love and respect for her as being the center of his life, and his hobby as being...just that.

 

[tantalizeme]

Amazingly pertinent input

Honesty between sexes is an 'ideal' concept... There are things that people really don't want to know about, especially if it is not going to interfere with the relationship; in other words, if it is not relevant.

At the end of the day, and as we age, we have to consider where we will be when we are old and gray and who will be standing beside us. Who do you want as a life partner to move into those years when young women view you as an old man (and many will be thinking 'that dirty old man')

I understand the fear of losing that delicious sensation of adventure (interesting information on the role of dopamine and oxytocin in relationships), but in the long run is it that difficult to balance a serious relationship and your hobby? Is it possible to exercise discipline and make concessions?

Hi mimi,

Just as I was going to give this thread a rest, your amazing comment shakes me up...and pierces right through my armour of defensive argumentativeness.

Insights like yours are what what this Board should be about, at its best.

You fully understand the dilemmas we aging men confront as we desperately try to remain vibrantly sexual beings.

Women our age who make suitable SOs—even if still attractive—aren't generally super-lusty, so what are we supposed to do? Make ourselves ridiculous by pestering younger civvies? That's not my style.

Mature civvies in old-folks dancehalls? Well, depends on how we approach it. But they're rarely there just for sex—though there might be surprises, as Playful Alex suggests.

Swinger clubs (Alex, thanks for the link)? Well, at some point even a seasoned swinger like myself has to face up to the fact that these clubs work way better for the younger crowd.

So yes, mimi: striking a balance between maintaining a love relationship with a reasonably age-appropriate SO while discreetely pooning on the side is probably the most dignified, most realistic way for most older men to hang on to their sexuality. I think Tugela (who sounds more and more spiteful to me) is totally out to lunch that only losers without social skills need to pay for it.
---

On a side note: I've noticed, those of us who're sexual variety seekers rarely dump on love, romance, affection: we want both. But the starry-eyed romance hunters usually dump on us variety-seekers in a surprisingly hostile, defensive, morally ignorant way. Wonder why that is?

 

[PlayfulAlex]

...This is EXACTLY what happened to me with my last relationship. She told me she only wanted to be with me and was swinging the whole time and wanted to "introduce me slowly to the whole scene." I have no moral objection to swinging, it's just not for me. I dumped her pretty quick because she was dishonest with me from the beginning. Also, it put my health and safety at risk because even though she was pretty diligent about wearing protection, how the fuck do I know she is taking the same precautions with others? Some of you guys may think I'm crazy for letting her go, but duplicity is one thing I cannot stand for...

This is so confusing to me. Why do people try so hard to be something they're not, just to 'get someone'...? Why pretend that you prefer monogamy, if you don't? You're going to get busted, and then it's going to get ugly. What did you gain by your duplicity?

Or is it a case of thinking, "well, that didn't work, maybe I'll try this." Well, swinging didn't work, so I'll try monogamy. And then you go after those that say they are looking for monogamy, but your true preference will eventually resurface. And again, it gets ugly.

That's why I appreciate tant's honesty. Many may not like his preference, but I really honour his honesty. I wish a few guys had been that honest with me in my life.

Meanwhile, yes, there do seem to be a lot of hate comments thrown at those that want to live 'outside of monogamy' but, in all fairness, many of those people really do rail against the monogamous ones. It's like those who like children vs. those who don't. Both sides go to great lengths to prove that their way is best...I think it's an unfortunate insecure human reaction to a different perspective.

 

[tantalizeme]

I'd like to indulge in an idle flight of fancy now and imagine how the conversation might have turned out differently. I stress, the following is fiction—based on how I'd ideally love to see events unfold.

I think that is probably true about most of what you post bud.

Hey Tugela,

No, most of my posts aren't fiction. If you really want to know, they reflect my ongoing struggle to overcome an anti-sex upbringing and to own my sexuality—for example, by describing encounters with SPs as candidly as I can.

It's often people with joy-deprived lives who don't want to believe other people's pleasure-filled stories. Hope you're not in that situation, brother.

BTW, your contributions to this Board are a strange mix of astute critical comments and acerbic jibes. You've 1330(!) posts and zero reviews. What's motivating you to haunt an escort review forum?

As is true of others on this Board, you're obviously not a pooner. Are you perhaps a disgruntled female who makes herself feel better lashing out at pooners, sex tourists and pretty much everyone else?