White Rock mom angry that school punished son for fighting back against bully

[tokugawa]

The Province October 20, 2012

When it comes to bullying, Lara Fominoff has always preached the same message to her young son: Never bully or be mean to the other kids. And never start a fight. But if someone starts a fight with you, you have the right to defend yourself.

It was this right that Fominoff says her six-year-old son exercised last week when he was confronted by a bully in the schoolyard of White Rock Elementary. After words failed, she says her son responded to the physical aggression he faced by striking back.

His decision to do so earned him a punishment equal to the other boy’s, something that has ignited a local debate over one’s right to self-defend when confronted by bullying versus the local school district’s zero tolerance policy on violence.

Doug Strachan, communications manager for the Surrey School District, which covers White Rock schools, says violence of any sort is unacceptable within district schools. That includes students striking back against someone who has hit them.

“If someone was pushed or even hit, that individual can get up and report that or they can kick and hit back,” says Strachan. “And we are saying they should be reporting it and not escalating it.”

But Fominoff can’t understand why her son received equal punishment to his tormentor, who was three years her son’s senior, when he didn’t initiate the confrontation and he had only been trying to defend himself.

She disagrees with the district’s blanket policy on violence because it colours the complicated debate of bullying black and white. Within such a framework, a student who defends themselves from a bully’s attack is punished rather than supported.

“I’m never going to punish my son for defending himself in a fight,” Fominoff says. “I’m not say that every time someone does that [gets physical] that you should hit back. But if someone is hurting you, you have a choice to do a number of things. And fighting back is one.”

It’s a position likely shared by many parents at a time of intense public debate on bullying sparked by the recent suicide of 15-year-old Amanda Todd, the Port Coquitlam girl who killed herself after enduring years of online and face to face bullying.

Fominoff said she was initially accepting of her son’s punishment — he was reprimanded by the school’s principal and made to apologize — but later changed her mind when she learned the full story and the extent of her son’s injuries (swollen knee, limping).

She was told during a later meeting with school district officials that the policy on violence was not going to change. But they did tell her they would look into the issue of schoolyard supervision, another point Fominoff took issue with.

While she described the meeting as productive, she maintains her view that the district’s policy is wrong.

“He got thrown to the ground, how do you walk away from that?” she says. “It not right [for the policy] to be applied without discretion. They can’t just have a blanket policy and apply it everywhere.”

Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Whi...gainst+bully/7418876/story.html#ixzz29xPo0ZPp

Even after Amanda's Todd's suicide, bullying and the lack enforcement against it still continues. In the above case, you're not even allowed to defend yourself!

Here's a similar incident in Ontario 3 years ago:

Bullied teen charged with assault

By BRETT CLARKSON, SUN MEDIA
The Toronto Sun
KESWICK -- Hundreds of students at the local high school here rallied yesterday to support a 15-year-old Asian boy who was the only one charged in a high-school fight in which the other boy allegedly started the scrap after racially taunting him.

The Grade 9 student at Keswick High School, who can't be identified, is charged with assault causing bodily harm after breaking another student's nose in a gym class last Tuesday. He is also serving a suspension and could face expulsion.

The other boy, who required hospitalization, was also suspended but wasn't charged. Neither boy can be identified under the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

"I am confused and angry at the same time," said the Asian boy, who has a martial arts black belt and who maintains an average of 80s and 90s in his classes. He said that if he is facing a charge of assault, then the other boy "definitely" deserves to be charged as well.

The boy's parents said the other student's taunts were the first incident of racism experienced by the family since they moved to Canada from their native country in 2004.

York Regional Police couldn't comment yesterday afternoon as the investigating officer wasn't available.


According to the accused boy and several friends, the other student called the Asian boy a "f...ing Chinese" and after a shoving match broke out, punched the Asian boy in the mouth, causing him to bleed.

The Asian boy retaliated by punching the other boy and breaking his nose. He said he used his left hand in order to control his punch and aimed for his opponent's jaw. But because the other boy turned his face, the punch landed on his nose.

"I kind of feel bad for breaking his nose but I didn't start the fight," the boy said yesterday after school let out.

The boy, whose marks included 96% in science, 94% in French, and 90% in math, must now appear in a youth court on May 13.

At his school yesterday, hundreds of students skipped classes to rally against racism and to protest the criminal charge laid against the boy, who they said was acting in self-defence.

"My friend is Asian and they were calling him terrible racial comments, like, I don't want to say them," said Timothy Barnett, 16, who organized the protest with a few other students including Kim Drimmel, 16. "Right now he is in the suspension room serving his suspension."

A suspension is reasonable but a criminal charge is not, Barnett said.

"Rules are rules and he did fight so I guess suspension is fair, but being charged, no, he was defending himself," he said.

Drimmel said the boy is unassuming and not prone to fights.

"He is a very quiet kid, but whoever he gets close to, you know his personality," he said.

"He's a black belt so I know that's probably a little intimidating, but he's a nice kid. He's Asian. He has a different background from everybody else -- some of the other kids just think it's different."

The protest organizers also wanted to protest bullying, claiming the Asian boy had been the victim of bullying and racism all year.

ONE INCIDENT

However, the Asian boy refuted this and said other students know he's a black belt.

The one incident of racism that sparked the fight was the only discrimination he's faced this year, he said, adding he's never been in a fight in his life until last Tuesday.

Still, he welcomed the overwhelming show of support from his fellow students and appreciated the stance they were taking against racism.

The school's administration, including principal Catherine McGinley, weren't commenting yesterday. Instead, York Region District School Board spokesman Ross Virgo handled media questions.

"When something like this happens, our requirement is that the police be called immediately and certainly they were," Virgo said.

Virgo said the province's Safe Schools Act calls for mandatory suspensions for students considered for expulsion. He wouldn't confirm that either student had been suspended or was facing expulsion, but said that any student facing possible expulsion is given the chance to appear before a disciplinary hearing.

"During that process the student would have a complete opportunity to tell his or her side of the story," Virgo said.

Keswick, with a population of about 21,000, is part of the Town of Georgina but is also on Lake Simcoe, where reports of racist attacks against Asian fishermen have surfaced in recent years, prompting investigations by York Regional Police and the Ontario Human Rights Commission.

Read more: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/04/28/9273821-sun.html

Other articles: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/05/07/9380011-sun.html
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/04/30/9300066-sun.html
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/04/29/9286936-sun.html

If you start a fight, be prepared for the consequences.

 

[westcoast555]

It doesn't matter... the kid knows the difference and he just learned an important life lesson. He stood up for himself and asserted himself in defence of his own interest, protection and dignity. That experience will stay with him for the rest of his life... and nothing his mother, the school authorities, the media or anyone else does or say matter to him.

The fact that he's exposed at an early age to institutional idiocy and hypocrisy are likely to benefit him as well. He learned a lesson - and it sounds like he taught one as well.

 

[blazejowski]

If you start a fight, be prepared for the consequences.

Reminds me of the Casey Heyes incident a few years ago:

 

[rhydogg]

I agree w/ the mother, the last thing I'll do is tell my kid to take it while being bullied or beaten... Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to be put in the situation where they feel the need to defend.

All these anti bullying campaing's and as soon as the kid does something about it he's taught he's no better?! But if he goes and tells he'll be picked on, or worse yet if he does nothing it'll continue..

Just the making of social anxiety disorder

 

[grusse]

I'm of the opinion that "educating" bullies just doesn't work.the only things these p....ks understand is force.

I also think that the 3 pusspimples in this thread that got their arses kicked,in White rock,Ontario and Sydney
will think again before their next go at bullying.

 

[badbadboy]

More Politically Correct Bullshit from so called professionals.

Did they think by making the kid who was bullied apologize that they in effect legitimized the Bully to continue doing his thing?

Now the kid who was bullied is going to question himself each time he has to defend himself if he will get in trouble for cleaning some asshole's clock.

 

[rhydogg]

My question is, why are the parents always looking for some institution or state agents to intervene.
How about a good old fashioned, my dad goes over to your house (possibly with a baseball bat) and invites your dad out to have a neighbourly talk?

Lol... I see your point but a nerd w/ a bat would not be too scary! Not to mention it wouldn't be fun having to hear stories of your kids growing up rather than being there 1st hand, ie., jail or teaching kids to use weapons is much worse..

 

[badbadboy]

My question is, why are the parents always looking for some institution or state agents to intervene.
How about a good old fashioned, my dad goes over to your house (possibly with a baseball bat) and invites your dad out to have a neighbourly talk?

Assault with deadly weapon would get you probably five years. That's why.

Meet the father on a quiet street or pathway. Have a friend with you who backs up your story that it was self defence. That's how I dealt with a neighbour who had a sociopath for a son.

All of a sudden all the damage to vehicles, break-ins looking for alcohol, loose change, DVD's and damage to the homes stopped. That family eventually moved away.

I made the problem go away quickly whereas the local Police wanted everyone to attend a meeting with a social worker and have a feel good session.

 

[Tugela]

The rules that apply in school should be the same as the ones that apply in the rest of society.

If you get involved in some sort of verbal disagreement, you can't hit the other person, no matter the circumstances. Being bullied or pushed around does not give you licence to go mediaval on someone's ass. If you do you will probably go to jail.

You also can't use excessive force.

The kids need to understand that the rules apply to them as well. There are procedures for doing things and they need to be followed. Just as the bullies cannot be allowed to go making up their own rules, neither can the bullied.

 

[westcoast555]

The rules that apply in school should be the same as the ones that apply in the rest of society.

If you get involved in some sort of verbal disagreement, you can't hit the other person, no matter the circumstances. Being bullied or pushed around does not give you licence to go mediaval on someone's ass. If you do you will probably go to jail.

You also can't use excessive force.

The kids need to understand that the rules apply to them as well. There are procedures for doing things and they need to be followed. Just as the bullies cannot be allowed to go making up their own rules, neither can the bullied.

Bullshit. The rules that apply in the rest of society are that you are entitled and obliged to stand up for yourself. Fighting back against the school bully is one of the most liberating and empowering lessons you can learn in life. I was fortunate enough to have that experience and not enough people do. If anything, people should step in and stop bullies and intervene on behalf of others.

And self defense is not illegal in any society that I know of.

 

[badbadboy]

The rules that apply in school should be the same as the ones that apply in the rest of society.

If you get involved in some sort of verbal disagreement, you can't hit the other person, no matter the circumstances. Being bullied or pushed around does not give you licence to go mediaval on someone's ass. If you do you will probably go to jail.

You also can't use excessive force.

The kids need to understand that the rules apply to them as well. There are procedures for doing things and they need to be followed. Just as the bullies cannot be allowed to go making up their own rules, neither can the bullied.

Problem is there is only so much LEO are able to do to protect you, your family and your property when minors are involved. Minors who do illegal things such as break into houses, cars, assault other kids and threaten other people know that jack shit will happen to them if the police ever stop to ask them questions.

I had cars keyed, I watched one kid remove the car's metal logo from the back trunk and he followed up by threatening a neighbours kid if anyone gave up his name to the police. I did the responsible thing and reported it. An officer sat in my living room and told me there was zero he could to stop this punk. That was the last time I reported anything.

There are a group of like minded citizens in my neighbourhood who have no problem doing our own version of Block Watch. Seems to work for us nicely.

 

[Tugela]

Assault with deadly weapon would get you probably five years. That's why.

Meet the father on a quiet street or pathway. Have a friend with you who backs up your story that it was self defence. That's how I dealt with a neighbour who had a sociopath for a son.

All of a sudden all the damage to vehicles, break-ins looking for alcohol, loose change, DVD's and damage to the homes stopped. That family eventually moved away.

I made the problem go away quickly whereas the local Police wanted everyone to attend a meeting with a social worker and have a feel good session.

Basically you are saying that you are no different from this guy's kid. You resorted to terrorism to frighten him away.

 

[sevenofnine]

i agree with the comments generally i mean
you have the right to defend yourself, you have the right to fight back if it comes to that.
its hard not to,
i prefer to walk away actually i have never reallly been bullied, im not a small person, and well when i was younger i had sort of a don't mess with me attitude that went with my size,
so i have never really hit any one or anything my life, i kind of just walked away.
just me
part of the reason why i know for myself im a or was a very angry man a lot of pent up emotions,
all in all its best i just take a walk

my kids i taught to stand there ground

has any one considered the christian philosphy.
turn the other cheek

 

[Tugela]

Bullshit. The rules that apply in the rest of society are that you are entitled and obliged to stand up for yourself. Fighting back against the school bully is one of the most liberating and empowering lessons you can learn in life. I was fortunate enough to have that experience and not enough people do. If anything, people should step in and stop bullies and intervene on behalf of others.

And self defense is not illegal in any society that I know of.

Self defence is not illegal, but attacking someone who is calling you names is not.

Also, there are limits to self defence. Your actions have to be reasonable and appropriate. You can defend yourself, but you cannot follow on with offensive action. If someone slaps you, you dont have a right to take a baseball bat to them for example. If the person is fleeing or backing down, you have to stand down. If you don't, you are probably going to jail. You still have responsibilities.

 

[badbadboy]

Basically you are saying that you are no different from this guy's kid. You resorted to terrorism to frighten him away.

Call it whatever you want Pal. I won't let the inmates run the asylum that I happen to live nearby.

I grew up in a rougher area of New Westminster. Bullies were swiftly dealt with and we had a generally harmonious neighbourhood. Neighbours looked out for each other, Kids were well behaved, crime was low and most importantly people learned to respect their elders and other people's property. That is what is missing these days and kids can say and do as they please without any legal recourse.

I found by confronting a Punk's father the best way to stop what could have been a growing problem in our area. If you met me or some of my neighbours you would see I am more of a moderate compared to them.

 

[westcoast555]

Self defence is not illegal, but attacking someone who is calling you names is not.

Also, there are limits to self defence. Your actions have to be reasonable and appropriate. You can defend yourself, but you cannot follow on with offensive action. If someone slaps you, you dont have a right to take a baseball bat to them for example. If the person is fleeing or backing down, you have to stand down. If you don't, you are probably going to jail. You still have responsibilities.

If you look at the story, the kid was being physically bullied.. it wasn't name calling. You can and should defend yourself physically if you're being attacked.

Also, for kids... if there's a lot of abusive name calling involved - I don't have a problem with a kid getting physical. It's usually in the context of physical intimidation anyway.

I think you're forgetting what it's like when you're a kid. Adults arguing over a parking space or a traffic incident should not be resorting to physical violence. With kids it's different. There are NO ADULTS in regular adult life who are exposed to the same gratuitous, wanton physical and psychological abuse perpetrated purely for amusement purposes as in childhood. Bullies themselves need to be taught in no uncertain terms that there are consequences for crossing those boundaries. A punch in the nose is not a bad idea in such cases. Aggressive children have to learn that you cannot torment people with impunity and regular kids need to realize that no mealy-mouthed school counselor, teacher, or officer of the law is going to intervene on their behalf.

Proportionate responses are always required. But sometimes physically standing up to a bully is very proportionate.

 

[kickback]

Zero tolerence is a breeding ground for bullies. Who's bright idea was it anyways? Teachers and the school board?

Zero tolerence means nothing and does nothing except punish the innocent.

When I was growing up guys were tough because they fought guys who were also tough. They also fought the bullies for the rest of the school. Today they'd be suspended.

Most kids are good and know the difference between right and wrong. They're scared to speak out because telling on a bully does nothing. There should be a hotline kids can call that's answered by young MMA fighters who can visit the bullies at home and have a chat with them.

 

[sevenofnine]

as a person that grew up in a very violent home abusive home. physically and emotionally.

there are two ways to deal with it, and only two,
walk away from it get away from it, either you leave or the offending person leaves,

or you stand your ground and fight back
and i think every situation is different, in some cases standing your ground could you could end up in jail or well a hospital room, or worse,
in some cases well fighting is the only way,

an rcmp officer told me once along time ago. everyone sleeps

 

[jesuschrist]

Looks like schools are well on their way to following Mathew 5.39:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Just kidding, sort of.

And that's the problem with our liberal education system - we don't want to create more bullies by allowing victims to defend themselves - but they forgot about human nature. Not allowing a victim to defend himself means he has to rely on authorities to do it for him, and if he does not think the authorities have done a good enough job (high chance), then he will:
1) distrust and disrespect authority in the future
and 2) learn to become meaner and more cunning in order to exact revenge

What's happened with kids today is exactly that.

Today the school system does not focus on education. Instead, it teaches them "self-esteem". So no matter how poorly they do in their education, they are told they are great. That's why they can't handle even constructive criticism, and that's why they are ultra-sensitive, and that's why the phenomenon of bullying exists today - because 1) they've become so sensitive that even a little bit of bullying becomes something they can't handle, 2) ultra-sensitive people become passive-aggressive, and thus become bullies themselves. Also being told you are great no matter how poorly you do, kids learn that authorities who tell them this deserve no respect. That's because there is no fear of failure and nobody to have to prove yourself to, to earn their respect. When a kid learns that he does not have to respect authority, why would he respect his peers?

 

[blazejowski]

We've all seen Revenge of the Nerds. Don't you think that's a much better way to live?