When do the HIV infected become infectuous?

[lenny]

"Nucleic acid amplification technology (NAT) and HIV antigen (Ag) detection make it possible to reduce the residual risk of HIV transmission by blood and blood products and to improve the early detection of primary HIV infection in high-risk groups. With NAT testing, the diagnostic window (about 21 days) is reduced by 11 days and the residual risk is reduced by over 50% (2). In the primary HIV infection, a localized viral replication (eclipse) takes place first and lasts for approximately 10 days. In exceptional cases, it can last for many months. Experiments conducted with the animal model indicate that the HIV-infected subject is not infectious during this phase of the incubation period. In the subsequent viremic phase, HIV RNA is the first and only detectable virus-specific marker for 1 to 5 days. In theory, all potentially infectious viral carriers are excluded by using the NAT technique, because no infectivity is observed during primary infection in the animal model before appearance of HIV type 1 (HIV-1) RNA (22). "

http://jcm.asm.org/content/40/6/1938.full

 

[Miss*Bijou]

"Nucleic acid amplification technology (NAT) and HIV antigen (Ag) detection make it possible to reduce the residual risk of HIV transmission by blood and blood products and to improve the early detection of primary HIV infection in high-risk groups. With NAT testing, the diagnostic window (about 21 days) is reduced by 11 days and the residual risk is reduced by over 50% (2). In the primary HIV infection, a localized viral replication (eclipse) takes place first and lasts for approximately 10 days. In exceptional cases, it can last for many months. Experiments conducted with the animal model indicate that the HIV-infected subject is not infectious during this phase of the incubation period. In the subsequent viremic phase, HIV RNA is the first and only detectable virus-specific marker for 1 to 5 days. In theory, all potentially infectious viral carriers are excluded by using the NAT technique, because no infectivity is observed during primary infection in the animal model before appearance of HIV type 1 (HIV-1) RNA (22). "

http://jcm.asm.org/content/40/6/1938.full

First of all, there's a typo in your title. It's infectious - not infectuous. (sorry if I'm being anal but it just bugs the hell out of me. I'm assuming it's a typo and not a grammar error because the word appears at least twice in the text you quoted!)

Second, I'm kind of confused as to what the point you're trying to make is..? The link leads to an article about a 2002 study so I'm not sure what exactly you are bringing to our attention here. Can you give an English translation? lol

 

[lenny]

Second, I'm kind of confused as to what the point you're trying to make is..? The link leads to an article about a 2002 study so I'm not sure what exactly you are bringing to our attention here. Can you give an English translation? lol

There is no point being made. It is a question, as in the title of the thread:

"When do the HIV infected become infectuous?"

IOW, at what point is an HIV infected individual able to pass on the virus to others?

What i am especially interested in is the potential to do this via sexual activity, e.g. broken & slipping condoms, etc.

If you can answer that, with supporting references or research studies from authoritative sources, i am all ears.

I would also be interested in opinions as to what, if anything, the study from which i quoted, and the particular quote i quoted, has to say about this.

P.S. thanks for your reply & spelling corrections, if any ;

 

[FunSugarDaddy]

Shouldn't a question of this nature be directed at the health nurse?

 

[Flanders]

The Health Nurse won't build a case for Lenny to engage in BBFS with multiple SP's, so, no, Lenny doesn't want to ask her. He knows her "facts" are really a conspiracy built to prevent him from his God given right to have BBFS with whoever he chooses.

Shouldn't a question of this nature be directed at the health nurse?

 

[lenny]

Speaking of the Health Nurse, he/she commented on the subject of the NAT test for HIV:

"The HIV DNA PCR (NAAT test) 90% of people would test positive by 10-12 days after being infected and 95-98% of people would test positive 4-6 weeks after being infected."

https://perb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?134988-HIV-Symtoms-Worries&highlight=antigen

Various numbers are given by differing sources, the earliest being 5 days after an infection to detect HIV:

"Nucleic Acid Amplification Testing (NAT) is the newest technology available at Anonymous Clinic to determine your HIV status after only 5 days of possible exposure to the infection. New, safe and extremely accurate, with NAT you can now know your status much earlier, shortening the window period between the infection and detectability of disease."

"...HIV can be detected on after only 5 days of exposure, average 2 weeks..."

http://www.adamslove.org/en-d.php?id=70

"It is now possible to diagnose HIV infection within the first 3 weeks of onset using nucleic acid testing (NAT).5"

http://journals.lww.com/jaids/Fullt...ce_and_Characterization_of_Acute_HIV_1.6.aspx

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15872202

"For HIV-1, the average window period with antibody is 22 days. This window period is reduced approximately to 16 days with antigen testing and to 12 days with NAT."

http://www.thebody.com/content/art13891.html?ic=800101

"Since routine HIV antibody tests yield negative results during the first four to five weeks of HIV infection,6 acute infections can be diagnosed during this period only with the use of tests for viral antigens, nucleic acids, or both.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa042291#t=articleTop

NAT testing is also used to help stop HIV infected blood from blood donors being used for transfusions:

"He credits the use of nucleic acid testing for reducing the window of detection to just a few days following infection. The United States has virtually eliminated HIV infected blood from the blood supply. And what about the next 5 to 10 years? “I sincerely hope that we will see a cure, a vaccine, or both,” says George."

Then there is the p24 antigen test for HIV which is covered by BC health care:

"The p24 antigen test detects actual HIV viral protein in blood. The test is generally positive from about one week to 3-4 weeks after infection with HIV.

http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/p24/tab/test

"Fourth generation tests

"Some of the most modern HIV tests combine P24 antigen tests with standard antibody tests to reduce the ‘diagnostic window’. Testing for antibodies and P24 antigen simultaneously has the advantage of enabling earlier and more accurate HIV detection.

"In the UK, fourth generation tests are the primary recommendation for HIV testing among individuals, but are not offered by all testing sites.1 During June 2010, the FDA approved the first fourth generation test in the United States.2"

http://www.avert.org/testing.htm

These tests are useful to identify an infection of HIV in the early "acute" stage of HIV so it can be treated more effetively and when it is the most infectious.

"...the HIV antibody test will not detect a recently infected donor, so some blood banks use a p24 antigen or HIV nucleic acid test in addition to the basic antibody test to detect infected donors during that period."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_donation

"The availability of nucleic acid tests (NAT), which reduces the window period and makes testing much more accurate, helped to support the argument for a change in the ban against MSM donating. These tests have been found to almost eliminate the possibility that HIV infected blood will pass through the testing stage, even in countries with high prevalence.33"

http://www.avert.org/blood-safety-hiv.htm

 

[Tugela]

Having antibodies to something means that you were at some point exposed to it, it doesn't mean that you are infected now.

 

[lenny]

Having antibodies to something means that you were at some point exposed to it, it doesn't mean that you are infected now.

Really?

With the HIV antibody test, they use it to determine if a person has HIV, or not.

BTW, with my original query, i am curious if a person with HIV is infectious in the first 10 days or so
of becoming HIV infected. Have any antibodies formed at that point?

 

[jesuschrist]

Really?

With the HIV antibody test, they use it to determine if a person has HIV, or not.

BTW, with my original query, i am curious if a person with HIV is infectious in the first 10 days or so
of becoming HIV infected. Have any antibodies formed at that point?

It would be bizarre if they hadn't. If you are infectious, the virus is "alive" in your body because it has client cells it is living off as a host. Your cells have been altered by the virus injection of its enzymatic instructions. Antibodies are the immune system response, and it ought to be responding almost immediately.

Also, how else do you think they would have determined that it is most infectious? They would have first had to determine that the infectious person had HIV - usually by testing for antibodies.

And besides, why bother asking? I wonder what you hope to gain by cutting your understanding in such fine slices.

 

[lenny]

It would be bizarre if they hadn't. If you are infectious, the virus is "alive" in your body because it has client cells it is living off as a host. Your cells have been altered by the virus injection of its enzymatic instructions. Antibodies are the immune system response, and it ought to be responding almost immediately.

Also, how else do you think they would have determined that it is most infectious? They would have first had to determine that the infectious person had HIV - usually by testing for antibodies.

And besides, why bother asking? I wonder what you hope to gain by cutting your understanding in such fine slices.

There are many people who are HIV positive but they are not sexually infectious because their viral load is low due to being on ARV meds, and/or possibly other reasons.

When is a person considered infected or HIV positive? Suppose a guy just had a sexual encounter where some cells of HIV from a sex worker got inside his urethra. Let's pretend they go into his blood stream somehow an hour later. They are not yet in his sperm. Then he has sex again the same day & cums inside his wife, but the sperm is not infectious because there is no HIV in it. So the guy is not infectious, at least not sexually as regards his sperm.

Imagine two days later the HIV in his blood has still not replicated enough to produce HIV in his sperm. The HIV is at very low levels.

At 5 days both his antibody and antigen levels are so low they cannot be detected by HIV testing. Why is it that p24 antigen tests cannot detect an HIV infected person who is less than 5 days infected and on average for about 12 days?

Also, how else do you think they would have determined that it is most infectious? They would have first had to determine that the infectious person had HIV - usually by testing for antibodies.

From what i've read so far it will take at least 3 weeks and up to 3 months (rarely longer than 6 months) before an HIV test for antibodies will detect HIV in a person. So it wouldn't be an antibody test they'd use to determine how infectious HIV is in the first 3 weeks of an infection. It seems that it would be a viral load or CD4 test:

"Infection with HIV-1 is associated with a progressive decrease of the CD4+ T cell count and an increase in viral load, the level of HIV in the blood. The stage of infection can be determined by measuring the patient's CD4+ T cell count and viral load."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV

From that comment i take it that a certain amount of CD4 cells & viral load are what determines when a person has passed from the primary or acute stage of HIV to the next stage.

Antibodies are the immune system response, and it ought to be responding almost immediately.

If they do, what kind of a response is it when the HIV antibody test cannot determine they are infected for 3 weeks after an infection? Three months after an infection the test is considered to be quite accurate in that a false positive result is very unlikely. I guess by this point the immune response has kicked in sufficiently & created enough antibodies to beat back the HIV so that the viral load is much lower than before in the "acute" stage, which means the person is less infectious.

"A strong immune defense reduces the number of viral particles in the blood stream, marking the start of secondary or chronic HIV infection."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV

So it seems there is not much of an immune response when a person is newly infected with HIV and through the acute primary stage of HIV, in the first "few weeks". Which might explain why it's so infectious and viral load is higher.

And besides, why bother asking? I wonder what you hope to gain by cutting your understanding in such fine slices.

The more i dig the more i uncover what's underneath. And sometimes it is quite surprising.

p.s. i visited my doctor earlier this year & she didn't even know what a p24 antigen test is,
let alone that it's covered under BC health care. This test could save your life.

 

[Tugela]

Really?

With the HIV antibody test, they use it to determine if a person has HIV, or not.

BTW, with my original query, i am curious if a person with HIV is infectious in the first 10 days or so
of becoming HIV infected. Have any antibodies formed at that point?

Yes, really.

Same principle as the flu shot. You get injected with dead antigen to raise an antibody response to it. After that your body maintains the antibodies for a long period, and that is what keeps you from getting re-infected. You don't have the flu however.

The problem with HIV is that it infects part of the immune system itself. People don't die from HIV itself, instead they die when their immune system is so weakened that it can't eliminate other infections or cancers it normally takes care of. That is what kills. The virus also has a nasty habit of lieing dormant in cells for a long time, so it can be very difficult to get rid of when it takes hold. Most treatments involving reducing viral load (but not eliminating it - these people will be on treatment for life). As long as viral load can be managed, your immune system should continue to function properly and you will lead a relatively healthy life.

There is a portion of the population that has a mutation in the protein that the virus uses to gain entry into cells. These people can be exposed to the virus, and have antibodies to it, but not have the virus itself because it can't take hold readily.

 

[Tugela]

There are many people who are HIV positive but they are not sexually infectious because their viral load is low due to being on ARV meds, and/or possibly other reasons.

It just takes one viral particle to infect, it doesnt matter what the donors viral load is. What it will affect is the probability of infection, but it doesnt eliminate it.

 

[HeMadeMeDoIt]

This is clearly one of those situations where you want to err on the side of caution and assume its from day 1 of exposure!

 

[luvsdaty]

Can't you guys google this shit?