Bareback {no condom} sex article

[TheEmpress]

Lenny, I'm substantially younger than you, yet see men older than you (most likely). It sounds like you have a horrible life, and if your wanting to die that young, look for someone to assist you. I don't think the concern here is you catching something, really why would anyone care. Unless you were spreading it and someone else came to a bad end because of you.

All those condoms slipping off.. Maybe you should try a smaller size, you can special order from Japan I've heard. That many condoms break? Try reading the box for storage directions. Advice- wallets, pockets, and glove compartments not a good place to keep them.

Well hope some one helps you out with the bareback, and if you catch something please keep us posted on how it goes

*This post comes from a place of hurt and anger, after loosing a friend to the stupidity of some one who thinks like Lenny.

 

[Pillowtalk]

Flawed logic, at best re a ten-year old would have less pain. There are many people who live very healthy, pain free lives well into their 80's. My grandfather lived to 92 and was rarely sick and had few aches and pains. He looked 20 years younger. He got pneomonia and died within three weeks of contracting it and he lived a very adventurous life.

I've got 4 grandparents who lived into their 90's without health issues as well. The ones who died younger (late 80's) had been smokers lol. None of them had significant health issues or pain complaints whatsoever. Both grandmothers lived to 94. I doubt very much if anything or any pain will take me out before 90, unless I get hit by a bus crossing the street one day. I have no intention of limiting my chances with stupidness, and bbfs is the equivalent of standing on the corner and waiting for a bus to start coming my way before I step off the curb.

I'll take my chances with cfs, the equivalent of waiting for the light to turn green and crossing at the crosswalk, looking both ways first.

 

[tyronejames]

Man. . ..... I read some more of that rawtop blog. To my prudish self it seems waaaaay past "edgy".

 

[wilde]

I am so happy I put that troll/buffoon on ignore. Judging by people's response to him, he is obviously trying to bait some of you into another one of his "hey look at me, I am so unconventional BS discussion". How much more pathetic can he get? I guess somebody had to pick up where BJhunter and Krustee left off...

 

[lenny]

I've been looking into this topic the past 6 months & found the following quote re BB sexing Thai SP's to be quite interesting:


"If we take Degan's number of 1/2000, and use 10% infection in the target group (and that is probably too large, but we'll go with it), we arrive at 13,862.6 sexual encounters to have a 50% probability of infection. That's a different partner every single day for about 38 years, and then it is only even money you are infected."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/327875-the-hiv-scam/page__st__75

 

[vancity_cowboy]

cmon everybody - give lenny a break... he's been away and his post count average has fallen way behind our other 3000+ posting stars. threads like this give him an opportunity to catch up

 

[Pirate Code]

I googled "thai sex workers aids infection rate" and found this:

Sex workers

Sex work is illegal in Thailand but there are still thousands of commercial sex establishments (CSEs) in operation. These include brothels, massage parlours, karaoke bars and saunas. The ‘100% condom’ programme, which enforced mandatory condom use in all CSEs, played a significant role in reducing Thailand’s HIV prevalence in the 1990s.

Not all sex is sold in commercial sex establishments. Although it is difficult to monitor free lance sex workers (part time sex workers who solicit sex in public places or restaurants and bars), signs are that HIV prevalence is increasing within this group and among male sex workers in general. According to one study conducted by the government in Bangkok in 2007, HIV prevalence among freelance sex workers in Bangkok was 19 percent whereas HIV prevalence had declined to 4.3 percent in CSEs in that year.59

Seriously man, you would risk a one in 5 chance of being with someone with aids?
Please give us a list of all the girls you see in Vancouver so we can avoid them like the plague.

 

[lenny]

I googled "thai sex workers aids infection rate" and found this:

I am about half way through the 200 something page study spoken of in your quote.
For me it is quite an interesting read.

Seriously man, you would risk a one in 5 chance of being with someone with aids?

Everyone has their level of risk they are willing to tolerate, whether it be at recieving BBBJ's or whatever, but that is a bit too high risk even for me. The 1 in 23 [4.3%] chance of the study you referred to sounds more like it. Then taking Degan's number of 1/2000 we arrive at 46,000 sexual encounters per single infection. That's a different partner every day for about 126 years.

Odds are high that you'ld die of other causes before you ever caught HIV. Even if the rate of infection were 1 in 500 BB sex acts with a HIV infected person, that would still only reduce the number of years from 126 to 31.5.

 

[Pirate Code]

The 1 in 23 [4.3%] chance of the study you referred to sounds more like it.

This rate is for those working in CSE's where MANDATORY condom use is enforced... not the bareback sex you want.

 

[lenny]

This rate is for those working in CSE's where MANDATORY condom use is enforced... not the bareback sex you want.

I suggest it might be a problem enforcing this when the SP is alone with the customer, such as in his hotel room.

Since 50% of street walkers i encountered were ready to BB sex a VIP for a tip or a number of times their usual donation, i am certain there would be CSE's willing to do the same.

My reading on Thailand sex forums tends to support this conclusion.

Moreover i think even amongst escorts on sites such as this such a service is not out of the question, though it is quesionable whether any would come out of the closet publicly while still working, for obvious reasons.


------------------------


"Sex is like art. Most of it is pretty bad, and the good stuff is out of your price range."
-- Scott Roeben


"One day, this kid came home from school with a homework assignment. His assignment: To tell the class the next day the difference between theory and reality. He asked his father for help. "Dad, what's the difference between theory and reality?" "That's easy, son." the father replied. He gestured to his son to go ask his sister a question. "Go upstairs and ask your sister if she would sleep with any guy for a million bucks." The kid went upstairs and asked his sister, "Hey, Sis! Would you sleep with any guy for a million dollars?" His sister gave a disgusted look and yelled, "Pervert!" Then casually continued, "Of course I would, fool. Are you stupid? It's a million bucks!" The kid quickly ran downstairs to tell his dad. "Dad, dad, she said yes, yes she would sleep with any guy for a million bucks." Then the dad said, "Now go ask your mother the same question." The kid ran back upstairs and asked his mom, "Mom, would you sleep with any guy for a million bucks?" The mom answered, "Of course! That's allot of money!" The kid then ran back downstairs again to tell his dad. "Dad dad, she said yes, yes she'll sleep with any guy for a million bucks!" Then his dad mildly answered, "You see, son, that's the difference between theory and reality. In theory, we're living on a gold mine. In reality, we're living with two whores!"

 

[lenny]

All those condoms slipping off.. Maybe you should try a smaller size, you can special order from Japan I've heard.

I finally found one 2-3 years ago in BKK with the help of a SP there. It is a size 49 and was much more reliable, although i had a slip or two even with that. I haven't seen that size here in either SDM or a sex shop i was in.

That many condoms break? Try reading the box for storage directions. Advice- wallets, pockets, and glove compartments not a good place to keep them.

IME there has been one break and many slipping.

That's good advice, although it seems that condoms are not very safe or reliable, since so many other things can go wrong, as can be seen at the following sites:

http://www.youngwomenshealth.org/malecontraceptives1.html

See "expand response" at:

http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/SafeSex/Q185380.html?h96o

I guess condoms give about 10 times more protection to a user than the barebacker whose protection lies in his bodies' natural defense systems. Condoms are far from making the user 100% safe in sex or HIV proof:

"According to a 2000 report by the National Institutes of Health (NIH), correct and consistent use of latex condoms reduces the risk of HIV/AIDS transmission by approximately 85% relative to risk when unprotected, putting the seroconversion rate (infection rate) at 0.9 per 100 person-years with condom, down from 6.7 per 100 person-years.[52] Analysis published in 2007 from the University of Texas Medical Branch [53] and the World Health Organization[54] found similar risk reductions of 80–95%."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condom#In_preventing_STDs

This is based on 100% "correct and consistent use of latex condoms", every time, but in the world of human error those figures would go down, as explained here:

"Hand out all the condoms you want, make sure they are used, and there will still be an epidemic of STDs and unplanned pregnancy. I'm old enough to recall when the pill came out. I was just a child, but I remember the stir. Reliable birth control, for the 1st time!! Condoms have been around for centuries, in one form or another. They have never been reliable. Today, IF a condom is used CORRECTLY (12 step process) and CONSISTENTLY, and there are no defects in the condom, and it does not break; a user might have an 85% protection rate against HIV, or pregnancy. In the real world, where the users are drunk, or stoned, it's dark, and he is rushing...are you getting the picture?"

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2010/nov...ut-not-beaten-hivaids-st/?partner=yahoo_feeds

In this opinion up to 2% of condoms break due to the fault of the condom. An additional 3-12% of the time they slip down, and at a rate of 1-5% they slip off completely during vaginal intercourse:

http://www.avert.org/condoms.htm

Re HIV, it has not been considered a death sentence for years now, and i've been reading some promising & hopeful opinions, such as, for a few examples, the following:

"In fact, about one per cent of Caucasians are immune to HIV.

"Some researchers think the immunity gene goes back to the Great Plague: people who survived the plague passed their immunity down and their heirs have it today."

http://www.mid-day.com/news/2011/ma...ay-Brown-Berlin-Patient-medical-community.htm

"The example is Timothy Ray Brown of San Francisco, the first person in the world apparently cured of AIDS. His treatment isn't practical for wide use, but there are encouraging signs that other approaches might someday lead to a cure, or at least allow some people to control HIV without needing medication every day."

"...For now, the focus remains on preventing new infections. With recent progress on novel ways to do that and a partially effective vaccine, "we're starting to get the feel that we can really get our arms around this pandemic," Fauci said.

"... In the USA though, newly diagnosed patients have a life expectancy only a few months shorter than people without HIV. Modern drugs are much easier to take, and many patients get by on a single pill a day.

http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/ap/us_med_aids_anniversary

"Over the years, drugs have been developed that can treat a wide range of medical problems, including HIV, and help people live longer and healthier lives. All drugs are tested to make sure they are safe and effective enough to be allowed on the market. However, all drugs can cause some effects that are different from what they were developed to do. These are called side effects.

"Like all medications, HIV drugs can cause side effects. In most cases, the side effects of HIV drugs are mild, like a headache or an upset stomach. In some cases, more serious side effects can happen, like liver damage or a severe skin rash.

"Side effects are most common during the first four to six weeks you are taking a new HIV medication. After your body gets used to the new drug, the side effects usually get better or go away.

http://www.thewellproject.org/en_US/Treatment_and_Trials/Things_to_Consider/Side_Effects.jsp

"The risk of HIV medications depends on which one you're on. The newer medicines have less side effects than the older ones. The side effect profile of antiretral viral therapy has never been terrible. And some of the latest medications that are coming out in clinical trial, so far we haven't even seen any side effects."

http://www.videojug.com/interview/hiv-treatment-side-effects

 

[Pillowtalk]

I'm sure the women who have died here in Canada in the past 5 years will find comfort in these stats. Considering they were not informed of their partners status, and provided the bb sex you so highly recommend, but hey, we can't ask them now, can we? You can see what those partners have to say about it, they are in jail now. I guess "living a quality life with Aids", as you so readily want us to believe is possible.

Your stats indicate that 2% failure on condoms used correctly, that is a big difference from 85% effective when used correctly. Because the rest of those "stats go on to tell us about how the condom is NOT being used correctly. Slippage and coming off is not using the condom correctly, unless you live in a different reality than everyone else.

Smaller sizes can be found, but also try a cock ring, clearly you have major issues with this problem. The ring secures the base of the condom to the base of the penis, and should take care of that slippage. Also, proper use, again, means you don't keep going after cumming.

 

[lenny]

Smaller sizes can be found, but also try a cock ring, clearly you have major issues with this problem. The ring secures the base of the condom to the base of the penis, and should take care of that slippage. Also, proper use, again, means you don't keep going after cumming.

Thanks for the helpful tip. I may look into obtaining a cock ring and take it for some test drives.

Your stats indicate that 2% failure on condoms used correctly, that is a big difference from 85% effective when used correctly. Because the rest of those "stats go on to tell us about how the condom is NOT being used correctly. Slippage and coming off is not using the condom correctly, unless you live in a different reality than everyone else.

While you seem to make sense, and i've wondered the same thing, it is pro condom sites that are saying this. Here's another example under "Expand Response" and "Condom Myths" at the url that follows:

"Condoms don't work: Studies show condoms are 80% to 97% effective in preventing HIV transmission if they are used correctly every time you have sex."

"Condoms break a lot: Less than 2% of condoms break when they are used correctly: no oils with latex condoms, no double condoms, no outdated condoms.

http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/SafeSex/Q185380.html?h96o

However later on the same page it states:

"There are many reasons condom effectiveness in preventing HIV may be compromised. For instance, using natural skin rather than latex or polyurethane condoms, using the wrong type of lubricant (oil-based rather than water-based), not using the condom for the whole sex act (some folks put them on just before ejaculating), compromising the integrity of the condom (excessive heat if kept in the glove compartment of your car, tearing the condom when opening the foil packet, using condoms beyond their expiration date), etc., etc., etc. the list can go on and on and on.

"Even with all these "real life" limitations of not using a condom "properly," condoms still remain 80-95% effective in reducing the risk of HIV infection if used consistently."

So either there is something we're missing, or there is misinformation at these sites. Or a third possibility besides manufacturing defects and incorrect condom use, like accidents or sabotage, due to some of the things listed below, spilling, jewelry, etc. Things that may occur even if you follow 12 step condom procedure perfectly. Though after glancing at the two studies in question, while they refer to correct and consistent use, the conclusions speak of consistent use without mentioning the former.

"Protection from female to male transmission is nearly 100% by condom use, though vice versa may not be the same due to easy semen leakage around the edges."

http://www.thailandguru.com/sexually-transmitted-diseases-stds.html#gonorrhea

The wikipedia article says the "rate of breakage is between 0.4% and 2.3%, while the rate of slippage is between 0.6% and 1.3%.[53] Even if no breakage or slippage is observed, 1–2% of women will test positive for semen residue after intercourse with a condom.[62][63]"

"...One study found that semen exposure from a broken condom was about half that of unprotected intercourse; semen exposure from a slipped condom was about one-fifth that of unprotected intercourse.[67]"

So if a SP used condoms correctly 100% of the time, had 2 in 200 [1%] break, on average her exposure to semen would be the same as having had one session of bareback sex? Yikes!

In addition to condom failures because of manufacturing defects, and potential failures to use condoms correctly 100% of the time, a SP [or client] should also be concerned about this:

"Another possible cause of condom failure is sabotage. One motive is to have a child against a partner's wishes or consent.[77] Some commercial sex workers from Nigeria reported clients sabotaging condoms in retaliation for being coerced into condom use.[78] Using a fine needle to make several pinholes at the tip of the condom is believed to significantly impact their effectiveness.[50]:306-307[63]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condom#Causes_of_failure

Fingernails have been identified as another means to compromise the integrity of a condom, whether by accident or intentionally. Purposely mishandling the rubber, for example by leaving it in the sun for a long time, could end up with the same result, and an easily broken latex.

"Tearing the condom by opening the package with your teeth, Streisand-like fingernails or Dame Edna-like jewelry. Also, sharp edges on "body jewelry" on your big bopper or her love canal can also lead to problems."

http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/SafeSex/Q185380.html?h96o

I just was watching The Today and there was a doctor on there who stated that condoms are only 80% protective against HIV. I have always had protective anal sex - no condoms breaking. I have heard I am at close to zero risk - but this doctor "chic" on The Today show freaked me out. Can you add to this?

---------------

No need to freak out. HIV cannot permeate intact latex. No way. No how. The reason condoms are not 100% protective has to do with many potential factors, such as:

1. Using the wrong kind of condom. Natural (lamb's skin) condoms do not protect against HIV.

2. Using condoms improperly. This is a biggy! You'd be amazed how many studs just don't know how to dress for success!

3. Condom failure. It's rare, but it can happen, especially if one is stingy with the lube.

http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/SafeSex/Q185380.html?h96o

=================

In other words, sex with condoms isn't totally "safe sex," but it is "less risky" sex.

...Manufacturers "spot check" their condoms using a "water-leak" test. FDA inspectors do a similar test on sample condoms they take from warehouses. The condoms are filled with water and checked for leaks. An average of 996 of 1000 condoms must pass this test.

(Don't try the water-leak test on condoms you plan to use, because this kind of testing weakens condoms.)

...If you buy condoms not already lubricated, it's a good idea to apply some yourself. Lubricants may help prevent condoms from breaking during use and may prevent irritation, which might increase the chance of infection.

...It's most important to choose latex condoms that say "disease prevention" on the package. Other features are a matter of personal choice.


http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ByAudience/ForPatientAdvocates/HIVandAIDSActivities/ucm126372.htm

 

[lenny]

Not all sex is sold in commercial sex establishments. Although it is difficult to monitor free lance sex workers (part time sex workers who solicit sex in public places or restaurants and bars), signs are that HIV prevalence is increasing within this group and among male sex workers in general. According to one study conducted by the government in Bangkok in 2007, HIV prevalence among freelance sex workers in Bangkok was 19 percent whereas HIV prevalence had declined to 4.3 percent in CSEs in that year.59

I finally finished reading this study of over 200 pages at:

http://www.unaids.org/en/dataanalys.../thailand_2010_country_progress_report_en.pdf

According to the work, apparently referring to freelance [FL] female sex workers [FSW], in 2007 "HIV prevalence among non venue-based sex workers using RDS in Bangkok was 19%" [p.80]

I didn`t see anywhere in the report that states how many FL involved were only serving Thai customers, or how many surveyed were users of narcotics or injecting drug users. Neither did i see an indication of the number of participating FL FSWs [amongst thousands of FLs in the city of 9 million], or what areas of Bangkok [e.g. Chinatown, Nana, Siam] that were included, let alone specific addresses.

If any or all the above were included, then the question arises as to how accurate the 19% is to a foreigner pooning in a particular popular tourist area of BKK who only has BB sex with sober TG`s. I saw evidence of only a very small percentage of drug users amongst street SP`s i encountered.

"Further, anecdotal evidence suggests that Thais are more likely than farang clients to insist on anal intercourse with msw (de Lind van Wijngaarden 1996, Storer 1999c) and are less likely to wish to use condoms (McCamish 1999). http://www.aidsmark.org/vct_box/Research/TargetGroups/MSM/msminthailand.pdf

"Prevalence of HIV among intravenous drug users (IDU) attending detoxification centers is still high, at levels of 30% to 40%. Nevertheless, results from the latest (2009) survey round using the respondent driven sampling (RDS) method found that the prevalence of HIV in Bangkok and Chiang Mai was lower than the national prevalence for this group (i.e., 24% and 11% respectively)." p.3
http://www.unaids.org/en/dataanalys.../thailand_2010_country_progress_report_en.pdf

Is the rate of HIV infection at 19% reasonable if it is not much lower than the 26% estimate amongst FSW in the DTES? FSWs in the DTES seem to be over 95% drug addicts, many of whom are IDU. http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/6/1/5/comments
https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?120371-BBBJ-Not-Popular-Outside-Vancouver

Personally the area i pick up BKK ladies off the street in one small area has a very high turnover rate every year. So this also puts into question the 2007 estimates as to their relevance to an almost entirely new group of individuals in 2008-2011.

"In terms of access, three broad categories of sex work sites can be considered, namely brothels, other establishments (including hotels, dance halls, bars, video houses, karaoke bars, massage parlours), and non-establishment-based or `floating` sex workers (those working in the street, freelancers). Although it is useful to categorize sex work sites in this way, it is recognized that there may be some overlap between these categories. Floating sex workers, in particular, may be the same women who work in hotels or bars.

"...potential sources of bias include the exclusion of women who sell sex at these sites but do not think of themselves as sex workers, and changes in the population over time; for example following the expulsion of foreign women. In addition, where peer educators contribute to the mapping and sampling process, it is possible that women who have already had contact with peer educators and had access to prevention information and/or condoms will be over-represented in the sample.

"It is more difficult to gain access to floating sex workers than to sex workers in the above two categories. NGO or other community-based organizations with good rapport and who offer services to these women can often be helpful. Again, sex workers serving as key informants are essential collaborators.

"Potential sources for bias are similar to those of other establishments, but as the sex work scene is more fluid, the biases are more difficult to measure and characterize.

http://www.ternyata.org/hiv/scientific_papers/surveillanc_among_sex_workers.htm

http://www.respondentdrivensampling.org/reports/RDSsummary.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_sampling

Of course if one prefers to lower his risk, and has a willing SP, see a copy of her recent testing negative for HIV. Tests can be done very quickly and conveniently in the Thai capitol and TGs are happy to please.

 

[Pirate Code]

Lenny, you can rationalize your thoughts to win your argument in your mind, but the facts remain.

The numbers are there right in front of you. Even a number like 4.3 percent is HUGE. Almost one in twenty. Do you like to play Russian Roulette? OH ya I forgot, HIV isn't so bad and you don't really care if you die anyway, because getting old sucks.

BTW, how do you think the 4.3% in the CSEs became infected with HIV?? Yes of course some will BB even though they are not supposed to. But the fact is, a lot less of these people contracted HIV BECAUSE THEY WERE MANDATED TO USE CONDOMS. The rules saved 14.7 % of these sex workers from contracting the virus.

AND IT ALSO SAVED ALL THE CUSTOMERS OF THOSE 14.7% FROM POSSIBLY CONTRACTING HIV. (and all the sex-workers and non-sex workers they would have taken the virus home to infect)

 

[Alix Turner]

I met one or two people like you in the industry. It felt very strange to be around someone that didn't have a self preservation instinct and thought that they could disarm mine. The statistics you read on the internet, your refusal to consider how many ways your hypothetical "safe" bbfs with an escort could go wrong IRL, and the way you have gone about describing your experience with condoms as though they are so unreliable that you are looking for an option that will provide near absolute safety.

If you do that though.. you mention finding an sp that will have a bbfs agreement with you and only you, and be protected with everyone else, and you will have unprotected sex with her and her alone.. and then have protected sex as desired, or no other sex at all..

but.. if you find condoms to be unreliable, that "protected with other partners" idea isn't really an option because you face the same risks of catching something that you are unhappy with now, and you will be having regular unprotected sex with a partner that is wracking up the (protected by unreliable condoms) exposure between your visits and shares her risk with you..


Have you ever considered whether or not you care if you get HIV? At no point have you mentioned considering abstinence here despite all of the reading you do about HIV transmission. If it was a great concern of yours, I imagine you would be calling distributors high and low and finding the condom that worked best for you, then a provider or girlfriend that you believed when she said she took no risks with you or anyone, get tested together, have protected sex.. and be confident that your test every three months would come up clean.

You would NOT be downplaying the transmission rate of HIV, assuming that the escorts you have seen do not fall into the high risk category, or taking a dismissive interest in things like a cock ring to aid in condom reliability and the female condom.

You are not concerned about contracting HIV because you seem to be under the impression that if you are convincing enough the laws of nature will conform to your views of them. I seriously doubt that you would acknowledge that you had HIV if you were infected. You are just using this thread to test and develop the point of view you push on those escorts who are trusting/naive/weak enough to listen to you.

 

[lenny]

Lenny, you can rationalize your thoughts to win your argument in your mind, but the facts remain. The numbers are there right in front of you. Even a number like 4.3 percent is HUGE. Almost one in twenty.

The 4.3% is about 1 in 23. How is that "huge".

How "huge" is this re risk for an act of BB sex with a random SP? If the rate of infection is 1 in 2000 BB sex acts with an HIV infected person and 1 in 23 you fuck BB have the disease, that means your chances of being infected from banging a lady BB is 1 in 46,000 lays. That's a different partner every day for about 126 years. Odds are high that i'd die of other causes before i ever caught HIV.

"Estimated per-act risk for acquisition of HIV by exposure route"
"Estimated infections per 10,000 exposures to an infected source"
"Insertive penile-vaginal intercourse...5 (.05%)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV#Transmission

If you BBed once a month, the chances of getting HIV this way would be once every 1,379,700 fucks, or 3,780 years. Now we are talking "huge". Get her tested, find her HIV negative, and your safety level just went up about 10x. That would make those huge numbers really, really "huge". Compare that to lifetime [78 years] odds of dying:

1. in a car accident...1 in 83
2. in a plane crash... 1 in 5000
3. from murder....1 in 210
4. walking across street...1 in 625
5. from drowning...1 in 1100
6. from falling...1 in 210
7. from lightning...1 in 80,000

http://reason.com/archives/2006/08/11/dont-be-terrorized

And HIV doesn't even kill you.

"Odds of fatally slipping in bath or shower: 2,232 to 1
"Odds of being the victim of serious crime in your lifetime: 20 to 1

Fire or smoke...1 in 1116
Suicide...1 in 121
Electrocution...1 in 5000
Cancer...1 in 7
100's of other possibilities...

http://www.funny2.com/odds.htm
http://www.blog.joelx.com/odds-chances-of-dying/877/
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trav...s-dying-plane-crash-your-lifetime-flying.html
http://www.livescience.com/3780-odds-dying.html

Do you like to play Russian Roulette? OH ya I forgot, HIV isn't so bad

The odds of getting killed from playing RR one time is 1 in 6. Play it once everyday for a month and you have a very high probability of being dead. Clearly it is nothing like HIV, which if contracted may not even kill you, let alone instantly. Even if it does it could easily take decades.

"Russian roulette is a potentially lethal game of chance in which participants place a single round in a revolver, spin the cylinder, place the muzzle against their head and pull the trigger." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_roulette

"... In the USA though, newly diagnosed patients have a life expectancy only a few months shorter than people without HIV."

and you don't really care if you die anyway, because getting old sucks.

Or maybe i "care", but i'm not quite so HIV-phobic and death-o-phobic as some folk. I am mindful that in a relatively short time we will all get to the next incarnation or eternity. "Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent."

Getting old may or may not "suck". That is, if you you even get that far, which is far from guaranteed. If you get HIV you will likely still get there anyway.

"Odds that an American adult does not want to live to age 120 under any circumstances: 3 to 2"
http://www.funny2.com/odds.htm

But if condom sex works for you, and you find the condom intimate, romantic, spontaneous, sexy, sensual, a turn on, never a hindrance to getting it up or the enjoyment of love making, then all the power to ya, pal. OTOH, if you have found it just the opposite, and sex is by far the greatest thing that makes you want to live, you might feel differently. BTW i see you like BBBJs. Why. Because the look, experience and feeling is far better.

Human beings often do risky things if they feel the potential reward is sufficient to warrant it. Car driving is dangerous, often puts the driver and others at unnecessary risk, and pollutes the atmosphere, but many millions of people do it since they think it improves their quality of life.

Of course enjoying the quality of life that BB sex gives could backfire on someone if they get HIV, if it led to some unpleasant side effects from HIV drugs, if one chose to take them. OTOH he might still enjoy BB sex for many more years to come, albeit not with healthy HIV-N individuals.

Some peeps like to scrimp, suffer, sacrifice and save for the future expectation of heaven, er, old age retirement. Others prefer the attitude of spend, travel, eat, drink & fuck to their hearts content, now, while they're still relatively young, healthy enough, and more attractive looking to enjoy it, realizing that any day could be sayanora. I think BB sex with Thai hookers might come under the latter POV.

BTW, how do you think the 4.3% in the CSEs became infected with HIV??

All of the usual ways. Mostly from their Thai mates.

Maybe 95% of working girls in LOS have a Thai SO/BF. Relative to the Western world, probably a much larger percentage of these guys practice BB sex with their partners as well as with other ladies and/or men in and/or out of prostitution. Promiscuity is much more common & accepted there, such as in having giks and/or mia noi. Working girls also sometimes frequent places of sin where they look for young bi "pay for gay" guys to do the bad thing with. Foreign pooners, OTOH, are more likely to use a condom, be circumcised [lower risk factor for HIV] and immune to HIV than the TGs Thai lovers.

Yes of course some will BB even though they are not supposed to. But the fact is, a lot less of these people contracted HIV BECAUSE THEY WERE MANDATED TO USE CONDOMS. The rules saved 14.7 % of these sex workers from contracting the virus.

Well, if they had stricter "rules" worldwide, like no sex except between a husband or wife, on pain of death, then we wouldn't have to worry about there being many infections of STDS or HIV, would we? And millions wouldn't have died from HIV. Is that the kind of world you want.

Of course condom use is reputed to have reduced or slowed the plaque of HIV. But condoms are merely one of several ways to practice safer sex. If you get your Thai SP tested negative and BB her, you may be nearly as safe or safer than the guy who is screwing them with an often failing rubber and has no idea of their health status.

AND IT ALSO SAVED ALL THE CUSTOMERS OF THOSE 14.7% FROM POSSIBLY CONTRACTING HIV. (and all the sex-workers and non-sex workers they would have taken the virus home to infect)

Then maybe stop having sex, as that will "save" even more, since condoms break, slip off, etc, and then it's the same as having barebacksex. So you condom advocates are having BB sex too. And your type of BB sex also leads to people getting HIV. So even more would be "saved" if you condom users quit having sex, since that often results in bare sex and HIV.

"Hand out all the condoms you want, make sure they are used, and there will still be an epidemic of STDs and unplanned pregnancy. I'm old enough to recall when the pill came out. I was just a child, but I remember the stir. Reliable birth control, for the 1st time!! Condoms have been around for centuries, in one form or another. They have never been reliable...a user might have an 85% protection rate against HIV, or pregnancy. In the real world, where the users are drunk, or stoned, it's dark, and he is rushing...are you getting the picture?"

So, again, even more would have been "saved" if you all practiced abstinence or auto-eroticism. Why don't you go do that? If everyone did there would have been no HIV epidemic or millions dying of it, no STDs of any kind. Also no human race.

BTW, those studies merely give estimates based on potentially fallible methods done years ago. Even if believed blindly that doesn't discount the merits of "safe BB sex". Even many condom touting sites say that BB sex w/i a monogamous relationship of healthy individuals is fine, implying it's on the same level as using condoms. Why is that? It's because you "know" the person. I see no reason why a guy couldn't "know" 2,3,5, 10, 20 ladies. Why restrict yourself to the boredom of BBing just one lady? Feel free to get to "know" many, which means by far the the most important piece of info is not learning things like her favorite flavour of ice cream or what she drank at the bar, but her STI history.

Moreover, I'm not sure how much trust should be put in stats from a study by a government whose name is synonymous with corruption, or associated with NGO's and other groups who may have self serving interests. The gist of the study says, 'we have made great progress in areas we've been working in, but have discovered a grave need for funds to help those who have been neglected, FLs and MSM SPs'. Sure.

 

[lenny]

http://healthnurse.wordpress.com/faq-about-sexual-health/sti-risks-chart/

It shows BBBJ as high risk for gonorrhoea, chylamdia, syphillis, HSV and HPV. So much for low risk!

Yes, it does. Although i think when people refer to BBBJ's as being a "low risk" activity they may often be thinking of it relative to their primary concern, namely HIV. When it comes to HIV, BTW, condom sex is far more dangerous, although the health nurse chart says it is not. That's because the chart is based upon conditions which do not exist in the real world of billions of people, namely eternally perfect use of condoms that are always unbreakable, 365 days a year, for decade after decade. As such the chart info re protected vaginal sex is not so helpful. Some readers who fail to notice these points may be led into a false sense of security, not only by what the chart says, but also by what it omits. IMO it's better to fully inform people with the basic facts so that they can make their own choices based on such.

"Condom use assumes that they are used properly and do not break."
http://healthnurse.wordpress.com/faq-about-sexual-health/sti-risks-chart/

Again this is an "assumption" based upon a fantasy world, not reality. Just look in the health section here, for example, of all the reports of condom failure during CFS.

It seems a lot of people think they are "playing it safe" when they put the hat on for a BJ while intending to follow that up with CFS, not realizing they just chose to do something far more dangerous than a bare BJ.

"According to a 2000 report by the National Institutes of Health (NIH)...consistent use of latex condoms reduces the risk of HIV/AIDS transmission by approximately 85% relative to risk when unprotected, putting the seroconversion rate (infection rate) at 0.9 per 100 person-years with condom, down from 6.7 per 100 person-years.[52] Analysis published in 2007 from the University of Texas Medical Branch [53] and the World Health Organization[54] found similar risk reductions of 80–95%."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condom#In_preventing_STDs

"Hand out all the condoms you want, make sure they are used, and there will still be an epidemic of STDs and unplanned pregnancy. I'm old enough to recall when the pill came out. I was just a child, but I remember the stir. Reliable birth control, for the 1st time!! Condoms have been around for centuries, in one form or another. They have never been reliable...a user might have an 85% protection rate against HIV, or pregnancy. In the real world, where the users are drunk, or stoned, it's dark, and he is rushing...are you getting the picture?"

 

[bcneil]

Lenny takes a lot of heat for his pro bbfs views.
However his stats are generally good.
I work in the stats field. I think the public has views that dont match the stats.
Like my married friends, who didnt want children ever, and only used condoms.
As the girl would get too fat on the pill..........2 kids in the next 4 years.

You don't see a lot of articles on anal sex in medical news, lol.
But simple stats, with estimated condom mishaps/breakage/slippage.....estimated transmission rates.
Anal with a condom, is slightly more risky for hiv, then bbfs. Significantly so for the girl, or guy I guess who is receiving.

 

[lenny]

Lenny takes a lot of heat for his pro bbfs views.
However his stats are generally good.
I work in the stats field. I think the public has views that dont match the stats.
Like my married friends, who didnt want children ever, and only used condoms.
As the girl would get too fat on the pill..........2 kids in the next 4 years.

You don't see a lot of articles on anal sex in medical news, lol.
But simple stats, with estimated condom mishaps/breakage/slippage.....estimated transmission rates.
Anal with a condom, is slightly more risky for hiv, then bbfs. Significantly so for the girl, or guy I guess who is receiving.

Did you really mean to say anal sex with a condom is "more risky for hiv" than vaginal sex (bbfs) without a condom?

Or that of the two if one is condomless (or covered) in both cases anal is the more risky?

Re being pro bbfs, that is something i struggle with/debate in my own head, and consider it wiser to do if your partner
has tested negative for stds. If the one you are sexing is such, one may as safe as using covers with an unknown.