Jail Time Coming for Clients in Canada ??

treveller

Member
Sep 22, 2008
631
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For all you Perbites who voted Conservative, you may be getting what you deserve. Too bad for the rest of us.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Backbench+Smith+aims+abolish+trade/5055
416/story.html


Backbench MP Joy Smith aims to abolish sex trade

Joy Smith has already had one private bill become law. She is aiming to
do it again with a bill to make criminals out of those who pay for sex

By Daphne Bramham, Vancouver Sun July 5, 2011 Comments (1)

Joy Smith is that rare, backbench member of Parliament whose private
bill was not only debated, but became law.

Rarer still is the fact that Smith, a Conservative from Winnipeg, is on
track to do it again.

Because of her efforts and her first bill, Canada has mandatory minimum
sentences for human traffickers whose victims are children.

Her new bill, which will be on the order paper for the fall session,
proposes to rewrite Canada's prostitution laws. It would make criminals
out of people who buy sex, but prostitutes would not be criminalized.
"It [the bill] will target the market, plain and simple," she said in a
telephone interview from Winnipeg. "We need laws that make people
responsible for buying and selling children."

However, Smith quickly noted that the bill is not directed only at those
who buy and sell children for sex, but will target all buyers and pimps.

(Currently, prostitution is legal but it is illegal to communicate for
the purposes of buying or selling sex, running a brothel or live off the
avails of prostitution.)

If it weren't for the fact that a lottery determines which of the
hundreds of private members' are debated, one might conclude Smith's
bill is the government's stalking horse - a draft of the law it will
introduce if the Ontario Court of Appeal agrees that three key sections
of the prostitution laws are unconstitutional.

But it's fair to say that the Conservative government got lucky when
Smith pulled number four in the lottery because reforming the
prostitution laws is difficult, as a parliamentary committee found out
in 2005.

Among the few things its members agreed on is that the status quo isn't
working.

Since then, the decriminalization/legalization lobby has strengthened,
hardening its position that prostitution is both a career choice and a
legitimate business.

Among the lobbyists are: Vancouver East MP Libby Davies; the dominatrix
and two sex-trade workers who went to court in Ontario; and the Downtown
Eastside Sex Workers United Against Violence Society and Pivot Legal
Society, which have a similar case set to be heard in B.C. Supreme
Court.

They argue that decriminalization/legalization is a form of harm
reduction that won't lead to an expansion of the country's sex industry
even though that contradicts the experience of countries and states
where more brothels, more prostitution and more human trafficking have
resulted following legalization.

"Libby Davies considers it [prostitution] an industry. I consider it a
crime," said Smith, noting that Davies also voted against the child
trafficking bill even though the majority of New Democrats, including
leader Jack Layton, voted for it.

Smith sees her bill as a first step toward abolishing the sex trade and
an incentive to work with the provinces to establish a version of the
so-called "Nordic model." The Nordic model involves a public education
program aimed at making it socially unacceptable to buy any sexual
services and provision of a wide range of social services including
housing, education, detox and income support to address the reality that
poverty and desperation often drives women and children into the sex
trade.

Smith said Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Justice Minister Rob Nicholson
and Public Safety Minister Vic Toews support her bill. But she's going
to be doing the heavy lifting in the House of Commons, not the ministers
and not the government.

Smith's and Harper's government will likely to be accused of bowing to
pressure from religious groups, groups such as the Canadian Federation
of University Women and organizations such as Resist Exploitation
Embrace Dignity, which Simon Fraser University criminologist and
legalizer John Lowman has derisively called "liberal feminists."

A coalition of seven women's groups argued before the Ontario Court of
Appeal argued that criminalization of prostitution is justified on the
grounds of civil liberties and human rights.

The coalition - which includes the Native Women's Association of Canada
and the Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres - argued that
under international human rights laws, Canada is obliged to assist and
protect prostituted persons. Further, it said the Charter of Rights and
Freedoms guarantees liberty and security of person to everyone, but what
it does not do is "guarantee men a right to the prostitution of women or
a right to profit from the prostitution of others."

It went on to say, "The danger to women's security is a function not of
the laws constraining prostitution, but of the actions of men who demand
the sale of women's bodies ... It would be illogical and contrary to the
principles of fundamental justice to decriminalize men's prostitution of
women in order to protect women from those same men."

Smith's bill is still being written with the help of both government and
private-sector lawyers. But she's adamant that it will stand any
constitutional challenge: "We are taking meticulous care," she said.

Still, Smith will need all of that, a broad spectrum of support and
maybe even more in order to get this bill enacted into law.

dbramham@vancouversun.com
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
1,744
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victoria
I have already predicted that this could be the approach the Conservative government takes -- by allying the fundamentalist flakes like Smith with the "progressive" feminists, they can appear to be "open-minded" and willing to compromise. Another step back....but it will not happen for a while.

Another problem with the "nordic model" is that it also requires support for women and the means to lift them out of poverty so that they may have other choices (if the choice of engaging in prostitution is based only on having no other viable options). You can be sure that this component will not be a part of any legislation brought forward by the Conservatives.
 

treveller

Member
Sep 22, 2008
631
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The other lie in the Swedish Solution is that they are only targeting the clients. When you criminalize one party to a transaction, you criminalize the transaction and you penalize both parties. I'm guessing the Christian right and the misogynistic feminists have a hate on for the SPs and they know the best way to get at them is through their clients.

The next time the prohibitionists have a public meeting someone should try to get a discussion going re. choice on abortion. The so called feminists should choke when they see what the other half of their team thinks about that one. Should sex workers have the right to choose?? To choose what??
 
Aug 15, 2006
622
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It may come to pass that the only way to ward this off, would be for many of the well spoken, educated, intelligent women in this industry to go public. If the general population saw that it's not just a bunch of poor, uneducated women who "have" to do this, there might be enough pressure to stop the criminalization of the act. I doubt many people realize that there are women with a degree or two and a professional career who still work as escorts.
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
1,744
6
0
victoria
It may come to pass that the only way to ward this off, would be for many of the well spoken, educated, intelligent women in this industry to go public. If the general population saw that it's not just a bunch of poor, uneducated women who "have" to do this, there might be enough pressure to stop the criminalization of the act. I doubt many people realize that there are women with a degree or two and a professional career who still work as escorts.
A few have done this. I notice that Mia, for one, is no longer in the business.

And anyway, to those who are agin it, these are always a tiny minority (and probably psychologically abused anyway), because they KNOW that the vast majority are drug-addicted, trafficked, wastes who can only be redeemed by Jesus Christ/a proper feminist perspective.
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,137
44
48
Montréal
It may come to pass that the only way to ward this off, would be for many of the well spoken, educated, intelligent women in this industry to go public. If the general population saw that it's not just a bunch of poor, uneducated women who "have" to do this, there might be enough pressure to stop the criminalization of the act. I doubt many people realize that there are women with a degree or two and a professional career who still work as escorts.

I just want to point out that the article discusses a plan for a law that would not be criminalizing the act itself but rather would be criminalizing the purchasing of the act.

So my question is this: what are you doing to dispel these kinds of harmful and false ideas about your role, your reasons and your views on all of this. Why do you seem to suggest that sex workers need to speak up (even though they are doing this already) and counter all this so that your side doesn't get criminalized? You have as much of a stake in this and just as much riding on a more realistic and healthier picture of prostitution as we do, don't you?

So I'm just questioning why you seem to assume this to be our responsibility to do it for you while we're doing it for ourselves? Don't you think you might need to participate and do your part in showing you aren't all gross, abusive rapists or any other false perceptions people have about clients?

Just curious to hear your thoughts or if you'd considered what I'm saying...
 

the old maxx50

New member
Dec 22, 2010
779
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Let talk about these so called Christian and what nots .
First off most are just a bunch off self righteous hypocrites , all though hypocrite is my favorite exclamation for these people , it is not the right descriptive term
Ignorant ass hole would be more appropriate . Y call them that because they just are not correctly informed , neither do they want to be , because that would expose them to some thing they do not want to here and then have to contemplate , including what is morally right .. in a free and democratic society w here we have freedom of chose .

It is not that i am so enamored with prostitution , I am not,, I known many women , i have seen as a client and visit as a friend , and I know they would rather do some thing else , even if they say other wise.. Now they choose to work in the business for their on reasons and that part i respect ... I don't necessarily agree with there chose or even my chose to see escorts .. because of my own inability to have other relation ships . Even though in seem i have no problem having none sexual relationships with escorts .. LOL go figure.
I personal can not see the Sex worker business from the same perspective that these so call opponents to prostitution see .. And even having a christian belief , i still can not stand by fellow christian .. that shake there head and think how sand that these women are prostitutes and used by perverted men .. Why because they want to impose their beliefs on some one else / and that is not the christian thing to do , Being a Christian is an individual chose . as is being a escort and has to be accepted hen it is a chose made freely and with out corrosion .as a person ho believes in Jesus I am all way willing to help on what ever way i can with out judgment , and care for other people , I do not see a different between any one because of what they chose to do .. If they honestly need help and i can give it i will .. But THAT DOES NOT GO FOR BEING USED AND ABUSED .

If these opponents .. are not approaching this situation with the basic principals , Of Love thy nabour as thy self, Don't judge other unless you be judged , and that change is a chose we must make for our selves .. then I really don't see them as Christian .. see them as over zealous self serving, judgmental and arragent people ho want to impose their will on others .. through undemocratic laws which have no place in a democratic society . Lucky we have a constitution and a bill of rights and freedoms that allow us to fight these laws .. Now weather we do as a society or individual , that is our chose .
 
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the old maxx50

New member
Dec 22, 2010
779
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AS Miss B points out it is the clientele that has to stand up for their rights . We are the one that seem to not want to be active in pointing out the inaccuracies of what they are telling the public

In fact is has to be a joint effort of every one standing hand in hand and taking the ridicule for the average person to see what the situation really is and see through the one sided story that has be told to them or that they choose to believe

I have to say fear is the main reason it will not happen ... It is sad that we live in fears for doing want we want to do.:confused::fear:
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,137
44
48
Montréal
The Nordic Model is just one way. I'm thinking that this regime's plan is leave the current cohort of impoverished and unskilled women in the trade so as to fill all the new jail and put the coming cohort of ladies to work in various aspects of the coming prison industry. You have to have some problems out there to enable them to keep those prisons filling up.
Not sure if I'm misunderstanding your comments but you understand that this model doesn't criminalize prostitutes but instead makes the clients criminals, right? Just saying, that's not filling prisons with women but rather with men... (or large fines if no actual prison) But maybe I misunderstood what you were saying..if that's the case, sorry! lol
 

uncleg

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2006
5,653
828
113

I just want to point out that the article discusses a plan for a law that would not be criminalizing the act itself but rather would be criminalizing the purchasing of the act.

So my question is this: what are you doing to dispel these kinds of harmful and false ideas about your role, your reasons and your views on all of this. Why do you seem to suggest that sex workers need to speak up (even though they are doing this already) and counter all this so that your side doesn't get criminalized? You have as much of a stake in this and just as much riding on a more realistic and healthier picture of prostitution as we do, don't you?

So I'm just questioning why you seem to assume this to be our responsibility to do it for you while we're doing it for ourselves? Don't you think you might need to participate and do your part in showing you aren't all gross, abusive rapists or any other false perceptions people have about clients?

Just curious to hear your thoughts or if you'd considered what I'm saying...
So are you one of the sex workers that are speaking up ? I know you do on this board, but how about publicly ? Do you march with Susi when they do the take back the street thing ? I note you hide your identity here on the Board, so I'll presume you're not exactly announcing to the world what you do for a living. While there are some ladies willing to go public with the fact they are sex workers, and are willing to fight for their safety and right to make a living, there many more that keep their profession a secret. So, if you are embarrassed/ashamed/ or whatever about being a sex worker, then you should have no problem figuring out why guys are embarrassed/ashamed/ or whatever about being a customer. If you yourself are not out there publicly supporting the profession, then I suggest you don't have any right or call to question why the customers don't publicly support it either.
 
W

westcoast555

Relax.. the tide is not turning this way. This is Canada and the cops and the justice system know better and so do most of the common sense people in this country. But we must keep an eye on them.. and write to your MP if necessary and tell them to mind their own business.
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,137
44
48
Montréal
So are you one of the sex workers that are speaking up ? I know you do on this board, but how about publicly ? Do you march with Susi when they do the take back the street thing ? I note you hide your identity here on the Board, so I'll presume you're not exactly announcing to the world what you do for a living. While there are some ladies willing to go public with the fact they are sex workers, and are willing to fight for their safety and right to make a living, there many more that keep their profession a secret. So, if you are embarrassed/ashamed/ or whatever about being a sex worker, then you should have no problem figuring out why guys are embarrassed/ashamed/ or whatever about being a customer. If you yourself are not out there publicly supporting the profession, then I suggest you don't have any right or call to question why the customers don't publicly support it either.

Actually I totally understand why people would not want to expose their real identity. While most people I know are aware of what I do and I have never been ashamed or felt i had to lie about it, I certainly feel a little more worried about being completely public about it. I'm comfortable doing it in various places on the internet and at this time, I'm not willing to put myself in a position where I give up my anonymity.

My point wasn't to say what clients should and should not do - I was, however, bringing up the fact that it wasn't very fair to expect sex workers to be responsible of doing this for you. :)

There's no need to get angry with me, I'm just pointing out that it's not fair to expect others to do it if you won't do it yourself... not telling others they should do it when i will not do it myself. There's a difference.
 

threepeat

New member
Sep 20, 2004
946
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Edmonton

I just want to point out that the article discusses a plan for a law that would not be criminalizing the act itself but rather would be criminalizing the purchasing of the act.

So my question is this: what are you doing to dispel these kinds of harmful and false ideas about your role, your reasons and your views on all of this. Why do you seem to suggest that sex workers need to speak up (even though they are doing this already) and counter all this so that your side doesn't get criminalized? You have as much of a stake in this and just as much riding on a more realistic and healthier picture of prostitution as we do, don't you?

So I'm just questioning why you seem to assume this to be our responsibility to do it for you while we're doing it for ourselves? Don't you think you might need to participate and do your part in showing you aren't all gross, abusive rapists or any other false perceptions people have about clients?

Just curious to hear your thoughts or if you'd considered what I'm saying...
I agree with Mlle. Bijou 100%. A first I think lol :) I doubt the effectiveness of a bunch of girls going public is going to do much, and the burden of this strategy falls equally on the clients as it does on the girls.
 

Man Mountain

Too Old To Die Young
Oct 29, 2006
3,852
29
0
Vancouver


I have more to add in a little bit but here's an interesting video for now:
That video was awesome despite the floating sync on the sound (which makes it a little hard to watch). Thanks for posting it.
 

uncleg

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2006
5,653
828
113
Actually I totally understand why people would not want to expose their real identity. While most people I know are aware of what I do and I have never been ashamed or felt i had to lie about it, I certainly feel a little more worried about being completely public about it. I'm comfortable doing it in various places on the internet and at this time, I'm not willing to put myself in a position where I give up my anonymity.

My point wasn't to say what clients should and should not do - I was, however, bringing up the fact that it wasn't very fair to expect sex workers to be responsible of doing this for you. :)

There's no need to get angry with me, I'm just pointing out that it's not fair to expect others to do it if you won't do it yourself... not telling others they should do it when i will not do it myself. There's a difference.
There is no angry, just the point that the majority of people that are involved in this business on both sides of the transaction, prefer to keep their involvement private. As long as that is the situation, the negative portrayal of this industry will prevail. It is easy to knock the industry when you can point to the downtown eastside SW's and the likes of Pickton as examples of those involved in the trade. Get a few more people out there like some of the SP's and clients that are on this Board and you'd have a chance to change the perception.
 

treveller

Member
Sep 22, 2008
631
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Details

Someone said above that Mia was out of the business. I assume he is referring to Mia Bella of Victoria who was featured in a recent documentary, The Brothel Project. I believe she is still working and I just had a look at her web site. If she isn't all that active at present I expect there are reasons other than the publicity she received.

A recent poll indicated that 70% of Canadians don't realize that prostitution is a lawful occupation in Canada. We need to change that. Who wants to contribute to an advertising campaign?

I will post more info on the poll soon.
 

treveller

Member
Sep 22, 2008
631
10
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Polling Info

Here's the info on the public opinion poll re. prostitution, from the FIRST e-mail list.

http://whyprohibition.ca/blogs/jesse-wentzloff/majority-bc-believes-prostitution-should-be-legal

Majority in B.C. believes prostitution should be legal
Submitted by Jesse Wentzloff on Tue, 07/05/2011 - 11:18am

Jon Woodward

A new survey says a majority of Canadians believe prostitution should be completely decriminalized, with British Columbians voicing the strongest approval.

According to a survey by Angus Reid Public Opinion, 53 per cent of Canadians support making it legal to run a bawdy house and solicit, while 24 per cent of people believe prostitution should be made a criminal act.

In B.C., 57 per cent believed the government should not block the sale of sex, while only 18 per cent supported a complete ban.

"The idea of consensual prostitution is something that is definitely resonating and a lot of people think that is the way to go," said pollster Mario Canseco.

The poll comes as an Ontario court is deliberating whether to allow an appeal of a ruling that threw out Canada's prostitution laws. The poll was provided to CTV News in advance of its public release.

Currently, selling sex is legal, but negotiating a price, living off the avails of prostitution and running a bawdy house are all illegal.

Two-thirds of men believed those activities should be decriminalized, while only 16 per cent supported prohibiting prostitution entirely. Fourteen per cent thought we should continue with the status quo, while four per cent were not sure.

Women were much more divided in the response, though a greater proportion of them favoured decriminalization, at 41 per cent. Some 31 per cent believed prostitution should be prohibited.

"It's a question of exploitation," said Canseco. "Women tend to believe that if you're working in the sex trade industry, you're doing it not of your free will."

However, when it came to a question of improving women's safety, women were more likely to support decriminalization, he said.

A majority of Canadians over 35 supported decriminalization, while only 43 per cent of Canadians under 35 supported such a measure.

The poll was conducted by two separate surveys of 1,002 and 1,009 Canadians between June 21 and June 29. The margin of error is plus or minus 3.1 per cent, 19 times out of 20.

Before the survey questions were asked, seven out of ten Canadians admitted believing that prostitution was already illegal.

"When people think something is illegal they're more likely to think is should be illegal," said Simon Fraser University criminologist John Lowman. "Which means the support for decriminalization might be stronger than it appeared."
 
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