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Why Men Need To Cheat

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
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Why Men Need To Cheat
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vicki-larson/why-men-need-to-cheat_b_1170015.html?ref=mostpopular


Monogamy is failing men.

Not only is it failing them, but it's a "socially compelled sexual incarceration" that can lead to a life of anger and contempt, or so says Eric Anderson, an American sociologist at England's University of Winchester and author of the provocative new book, The Monogamy Gap: Men, Love, and the Reality of Cheating (Oxford University Press, $49.99).

Cheating, however, serves men pretty well. An undiscovered affair allows them to keep their relationship and emotional intimacy, and even if they're busted it's a lot easier than admitting that they wanted to screw someone else in the first place, he writes.

In his study of 120 undergraduate men, 78 percent of those who had a partner cheated, "even though they said that they loved and intended to stay with their partner." Contrary to what we may think, most men aren't cheating because they don't love their partner, he says; they cheat because they just want to have sex with others. And society shouldn't pooh-pooh that.

Monogamy's stronghold on our beliefs -- what he calls monogamism -- brings ostracism and judgment to anyone who questions or strays from its boundaries. That doesn't make sense to Anderson, who wonders why we stigmatize someone who has a fling more than couples who divorce -- throwing away a marriage rich in history and love, upsetting their kids' lives -- over something like sex.

Monogamy isn't the only "proper" way to be in a relationship, and he says it's time that society finds "multiple forms of acceptable sexual relationship types -- including sexually open relationships -- that coexist without hierarchy or hegemony." It's especially important for today's young men, for whom monogamous sex seems more boring than in generations past because of easy premarital sex and pornography.


Dr. Anderson was kind enough to answer my questions by email:


Your study includes just 120 undergraduate men, straight and gay; isn't that too small a sample to really know what's going on for men?

If I were attempting to determine what percent of men cheat, then, yes. Large-scale surveys show us that cheating remains the norm... I wanted to examine the very notion of monogamy, not morally, but rationally. I wanted to know why men want monogamy but nonetheless cheat.



You say men want to be emotionally monogamous, but their "body craves sex with other people somatically." People crave food, drugs, booze, sometimes to disastrous results. If there can be self-control with other cravings, why can't men control their body urges?

Humans are largely lousy at controlling our bodies' desires. We say we don't want to eat that Snickers bar, but we also really do want to eat it. We eat it, we feel guilty about it, and afterwards we promise ourselves not to eat one again; but we nonetheless do. It is this same phenomenon, only with cheating, that I explore.



The men in your study experienced a sharp decrease in the frequency and enjoyment of sex after two monogamous years. Since no one can sustain the kind of thrilling sex couples have in the beginning of a relationship, isn't it a healthy thing that it decreases?

I wish young men got two years of good sex before it dropped off; it's a lot less than that! It may, however, be good that the sexual desire for one's partner weans; it means that we end up staying with our long-term partners for the socioemotional connection and not for the sex. If a couple is going to raise a family, it is the emotional connection that counts, not the sexual.

Our physical desires don't die; they just change from our partner to people other than him/her. We falsely believe that when the sex dies, the relationship has also died. The reality is the opposite; when the sex dies the relationship has just begun.



What about the idea that long-term relationships make sex become deeper, more intimate and more meaningful?


The diminution of sex is simultaneous to one's emotional bonds growing stronger. Long-term partners may have more intimate sex (most just have very little) but when men see a guy or girl who turns them on, it's not intimate and meaningful sex they are craving.



Honesty is a huge part of a relationship. How good a relationship can one have when there's deception, especially since you say after men cheat spontaneously, they are more likely to plan cheating?

Honesty is good sometimes, and horrible other times. There are good reasons to lie; it is an essential skill for keeping community and relationship peace. The reason men lie about cheating is mostly because they know that if they ask for permission to have recreational sex: 1) they will be denied 2) after they are denied, they will be subject to scrutiny and increased relationship policing; 3) they will be stigmatized as immoral, and most likely broken up with. Thus, honesty doesn't meet their desires of having both a long-term partner and recreational sex with others.

The way cheating men see it, it's either cheat or don't cheat, but telling their partners they want sex outside the relationship, or telling their partners that they actually cheated, is viewed as a surefire way of achieving relationship termination. When men cheat for recreational sex -- not affairs -- they DO love their partners. If they didn't, they would break up with them.



Wouldn't it be less harmful to relationships if we became serial monogamists -- marrying two, three or four times as our sexual needs change?

Rather than marrying 20 times or more in one's life via serial monogamy, we can keep one emotional lover and just have casual, meaningless -- and hot -- sex with strangers. This gives us the long-term emotional stability we desire psychologically, alongside the hot, carnal sex we desire somatically. It makes much more sense than lying and cheating , or the difficulty of breaking up with a loved one simply because you want someone else's body for an hour.



Infidelity breaks up many marriages, but often it isn't the act of sex that's so upsetting -- it's the deception and lying, clearly problematic for the emotional intimacy you say men want. So cheating for sex may be "just about the sex" for him, but not for his partner.

Infidelity does not break marriages up; it is the unreasonable expectation that a marriage must restrict sex that breaks a marriage up. One of the reasons I wrote the book is that I've seen so many long-term relationships broken up simply because one had sex outside the relationship. But feeling victimized isn't a natural outcome of casual sex outside a relationship; it is a socialized victimhood. I'm not advocating cheating; I'm advocating open and equitable sexual relationships. When both in the couple desire this, when both realize that extradyadic sex makes their partner happy, and they therefore want their partner to have that sex, a couple will have moved a long ways toward facilitating emotional honesty, while simultaneously withering at jealousy scripts, which can be very damaging to a relationship. But if one can't achieve this with a partner that's hostile to the idea, cheating is the reasonable action.



Most of the men in your study were OK with sex on the side for them, but not their girlfriends. That seems unfair and incredibly selfish.

Monogamy is culturally compelled, so the decision has been made for us. How much of a chance would a man stand to have a second date if on the first date he said that he was interested in an open relationship? At the point men enter into relationships they, too, think they want monogamy. It's only after being in a relationship for months or years that they badly want sex with others. But by this point, they don't want to break up with their partners because they have long-standing love. Instead of chancing that love by asking for extradyadic sex, they cheat. If they don't get caught (and most don't) it's a rational choice.

But it is indeed selfish for men to want sex with others but not to want their partners to do the same. This however is not just a "man" thing. Women also cheat; they also lie about it; and they also want to be able to cheat without their partners doing the same. Monogamy is a problem for all sexes; it builds in an ownership script regardless of gender.



You say love is a "long-standing sense of security and comfort." So, wouldn't open relationships potentially pose a threat to that security since, even if couples play by their own sexual rules, there's always a chance one could end up preferring a new lover over one's partner?

People in open relationships structure their engagements as to reduce emotional intimacy. But, yes, of course it can happen. What I find from those in open relationships, however, is that once they have had sex with that person they fancied, they tend to get over them.

If we really want to prevent our lovers from developing the lust of others, or worse, emotional intimacy with others; if we really want to prevent men and women from cheating, we would be best to sex-segregate our jobs, our classrooms and social arenas, too. Emotional intimacy is the real threat to a relationship, not a one-off hour with a stranger from Craigslist. Ultimately, there are no guarantees that one's partner won't find love elsewhere. But controlling one's partner to prevent it only makes matters worse -- it makes them want to leave you. A better strategy is to be open, emotionally and perhaps sexually, too.
 

pacnwus

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Oct 21, 2011
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I don't really have an investment in this issue anymore, as I'm basically done with relationships, but I suspect that the consequence of open relationships becoming more common might be the opposite of what their advocates hope, namely a monopolization of partners by rich and/or charismatic men. My luck in terms of getting laid has always been sporadic, and during the one open relationship I've been in, my then girlfriend was far more adept at getting laid than I was. That of course made me insecure regarding my position as her "primary" --- and with good reason! After selecting a more charismatic high-status male who was more popular in our social circle as her primary boyfriend, she dumped my ass completely.

If this type of relationship were more widespread, it would consist of a top tier of males who command a harem of women, a middling class of males with one or two women, and a underclass of superfluous and sexually frustrated men who never receive any female attention at all. Bitter and resentful, they'd engage in criminal and antisocial behavior due to a lack of a stake in the social order, and the elite would have to find some way to prevent them from burning civilization to the ground -- possibly by sending them off to war to burn some other civilization to the ground. Or perhaps in the modern age, they could be satiated with internet porn and legal prostitution -- I'm not sure.

While I understand that women could have multiple partners too in a world in which open relationships were the norm, I doubt they'd distribute their love evenly between high and low status males.
 
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Trus'Me

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Jul 14, 2011
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Sometiiiiimes ya feel like a nut

If this type of relationship were more widespread, it would consist of a top tier of males who command a harem of women, a middling class of males with one or two women, and a underclass of superfluous and sexually frustrated men who never receive any female attention at all. Bitter and resentful, they'd engage in criminal and antisocial behavior due to a lack of a stake in the social order, and the elite would have to find some way to prevent them from burning civilization to the ground -- possibly by sending them off to war to burn some other civilization to the ground. Or perhaps in the modern age, they could be satiated with internet porn and legal prostitution -- I'm not sure.

While I understand that women could have multiple partners too in a world in which open relationships were the norm, I doubt they'd distribute their love evenly between high and low status males.
You've just described present day North America.
 
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DavidMR

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Mar 27, 2009
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You've just described present day North America.
Yes, and not just present day. It's been going on a while.

I frankly do not understand the idiotic conservatism of Canadian women. In England or Europe affairs are common. People are discreet and society rolls on regardless. But here, even on dating sites like Adult Friend Finder, you get females who loudly proclaim no married or attached men. It sounds like they're all divorces who are bitter about previous affairs.
 

pacnwus

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Oct 21, 2011
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You've just described present day North America.
True that. We might already have unofficial de facto polygamy, with Tiger Woods' harem, etc. That's X number of hot women who are unavailable for medium-status males. His girls might not have have been exclusive with him, but it's doubtful that they'd be have been interested in Joe Average office drone during or after their tryst with Tiger. It's kind of like how I was once willing to put effort into having sex with a 6 (and what a Herculean feat or sheer stroke of luck it was to shoot higher than that), but could no longer be bothered after entering this hobby and enjoying effortless, BS-free appointments with 8s and 9s.
 

Trus'Me

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Jul 14, 2011
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Yes, and not just present day. It's been going on a while.

I frankly do not understand the idiotic conservatism of Canadian women. In England or Europe affairs are common. People are discreet and society rolls on regardless. But here, even on dating sites like Adult Friend Finder, you get females who loudly proclaim no married or attached men. It sounds like they're all divorces who are bitter about previous affairs.
From the 1988 Frank Oz comedy "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" starring Steve Martin and Michael Caine

-Freddy Benson: "I didn't steal any money! She just saw me with another woman! You're French, you understand that!"

-Inspector Andre: "To be with another woman, that is French. To be caught, that is American."
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,136
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48
Montréal
True that. We might already have unofficial de facto polygamy, with Tiger Woods' harem, etc. That's X number of hot women who are unavailable for medium-status males. His girls might not have have been exclusive with him, but it's doubtful that they'd be have been interested in Joe Average office drone during or after their tryst with Tiger. It's kind of like how I was once willing to put effort into having sex with a 6 (and what a Herculean feat or sheer stroke of luck it was to shoot higher than that), but could no longer be bothered after entering this hobby and enjoying effortless, BS-free appointments with 8s and 9s.

I have a feeling the way you approach it and your attitude might be the issue more than "harems" and alpha or medium status males are. ;)

Honestly? That's petty cringe-worthy.
 

sevenofnine

Active member
Nov 21, 2008
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i think we vastly over think things.

if you look at nature,
its a males duty to spread his sperm around make sure his genetic code carries on.
and he wants his spouse to be his and his alone, so while he deposits his sperm where ever he can his lady, doesn't get the same privilage.
because if she is screwing around how does he know the baby is his.

i think culture and religion come in because a human baby takes like eighteen years to become an adult and needs support all that time, so we develope family etc, for a support system
but i think the answer is always very simple egg heads need to earn there degrees and think big pretty thoughts and get government grants for these big studies,
but at the end of the day man is an animal.
with a computer progamed to reproduce and survive


if you look at nature and say this hobby,
well it doesn't stand up to well,

i mean, men want a women who is a virgin and faithfull so they know the child in her is his,
so a virgin is the most prized or highly regarded female.
a female that sleeps around maybe fun, but well she is not highly regarded, because who's kid is that anyway.

and well family had developed so that the child which takes years and years to become self sufficient has a support system,
but if a guy can go and get sex any where, what does he need a wife for. give a women a few bucks and well there naked and banging together

sorry but prostition undermines family, and well not the way we were programed,
i think that is why prostitution is always seems to be on the out skirts of society.
 

pacnwus

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Oct 21, 2011
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I have a feeling the way you approach it and your attitude might be the issue more than "harems" and alpha or medium status males are. ;)

Honestly? That's petty cringe-worthy.
*Shrug* I guess my outlook on humanity is a bit more pessimistic than some people's.
 

DavidMR

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From the 1988 Frank Oz comedy "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" starring Steve Martin and Michael Caine

-Freddy Benson: "I didn't steal any money! She just saw me with another woman! You're French, you understand that!"

-Inspector Andre: "To be with another woman, that is French. To be caught, that is American."

Saw a live play version and half remember this line. It's funny no doubt.
 
Nov 26, 2005
59
0
6
Married with no sex

The title says it all and my take on the issue is pretty simple. People need sex. Or at least most people do. My wife sure as hell doesn't and I just can't seem to get by on 6 humps a year. Without sex we get cranky and hostile. Some people seem to simply fade and lose their vitality. I'm sure some of the effect is mental and can be overcome. Some of the effects of sex are hormonal very definitely physical.

And yes, you read that right. We seem to be averaging every second month.

Now, I love my wife and I really appreciate her. She is beautiful and not just physically. She is smart (except with computers and men) she runs her own business, she teaches, she's funny and she's the best mother I've ever seen. She used to be HOT, but after 2 kids and 50 pounds she is still attractive to me. Given the choice I am not going to leave her.

Unfortunately I guess being smart and independent she feels that if she doesn't want sex, she shouldn't have to give it up. And no, there are no mercy BJs or handjobs. Combine that with being tired from too much work and having a poor body image from 2 kids and 50 extra pounds and you end up with a very frustrated husband.

Sex is a big thing for me... as the weeks between sexings grow I start to get resentful. I start to snark at her a little more and my attitude toward her darkens. I get angry at little things more easily and everything is shitty. Some days I think of leaving her. That is when its time to sneak $300 and visit one of our wonderful ladies. Right now I'm averaging twice a year for this.

I take an "extended lunch" at work, turn off my phone and sate the primal needs.

I come home and I'm HAPPY. Things are bright again, my wife is wonderful, the job is great and the kids are little angels. For the next few weeks I have sunshine and rainbows pouring from my ass. Its funny that my wife notices the good attitude and appreciates me more for the next month or so. We usually end up having sex a week or two after a paid date.

Oh the irony! How do you think she would react? "Wow NAG75, you're really happy the last couple days! To what do I owe the pleasure?"

"I fucked a hooker this afternoon! It was great and I feel so much better now!"

When I'm having a satisfactory sex life (1-2 times a week): I don't bother watching porn, I have no need to jerk off, I notice other women a whole lot less. All the sexual behaviors my wife tolerates but doesn't appreciate vanish. She *knows* this, and yet there is no sex. That is why I say she isn't smart with men.

That was a lot longer than I intended it to be.
NAG75
 

Dickson

Banned
Nov 11, 2011
1,245
2
38
Berlin, Germany
i think we vastly over think things.


sorry but prostition undermines family, and well not the way we were programed,
i think that is why prostitution is always seems to be on the out skirts of society.
7of9 I agree with your first statement but am shocked at your last. Coming from you with a family how can you say it underminds family. In your case it helps to keep it together. I personally have never had a family and as much as I want one some days I realize it is not realistic. I am left with this hobby to keep the lonely nights away.

I think this is a very interesting discussion. The word and social norms are out of whack with the new reality. We are holding on to old concepts that are not realistic. Married guys want to be single and single guys want to be married. We want what we do not have. The grass is always greener on the other side. It is only once we get there we realize we had it pretty good on the other side. We like to believe that life is like fairy tail and happy ever after but when the story continues we realize it is not the end but the journey that is the goal.

I really appreciate you starting this discussion as I have often thought about it but hearing about it in the here and now is so refreshing.

Thanks
 
Nov 26, 2005
59
0
6
i think we vastly over think things.

if you look at nature,
its a males duty to spread his sperm around make sure his genetic code carries on.
and he wants his spouse to be his and his alone, so while he deposits his sperm where ever he can his lady, doesn't get the same privilage.
because if she is screwing around how does he know the baby is his.
I'm not sure this is accurate. Bonobo Chimps use sex as a social tool. It is used to show gratitude, dominance or fun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

Dolphins are similar.

Male ducks (drakes) are notorious for screwing around

In fact I've seen articles that claim polygamy is the dominant relationship model in the Animal Kingdom.

I don't have any sources to cite for this, but I feel (and this is just my opinion here) that humans are naturally Polygamous or at least Polyandrous. I think that monogamy is something we created in order to more easily define social responsabilities of men and facilitate social justice.

Getting into a whole other topic... as mentioned here already, kids take 18yrs to raise! Its not realistic to expect 2 people to commit to 18yrs raising one or more children. It is a LOT of work, it takes a lot of resources to do it well and damn, its hard work! That and 18yrs is a loooong time. What if one or more parents dies? I strongly feel that children should be raised by the community as well as the parents.

The community should help when parents can't afford a necessity for their children. There should be MORE people available to help raise children, not less. Community values should be enforced be several adults, not two.

Now, if you have five or six families all taking care of little Billy and Susie and a friend of the family (if only we could still trust people) takes Billy to Hockey and lunch afterwards... and Uncle Matt helps to pay for the Hockey Gear... If we have a whole community pitching in resources and helping to raise kids, as happens in the Animal Kingdom, does it really matter if we are only 90% sure that Chris is the father?

My thoughts aren't coming out the way I want them too... but I think you get the idea.
NAG75
 
Sep 29, 2010
172
0
16
The title says it all and my take on the issue is pretty simple. People need sex. Or at least most people do. My wife sure as hell doesn't and I just can't seem to get by on 6 humps a year. Without sex we get cranky and hostile. Some people seem to simply fade and lose their vitality. I'm sure some of the effect is mental and can be overcome. Some of the effects of sex are hormonal very definitely physical.

And yes, you read that right. We seem to be averaging every second month.

Now, I love my wife and I really appreciate her. She is beautiful and not just physically. She is smart (except with computers and men) she runs her own business, she teaches, she's funny and she's the best mother I've ever seen. She used to be HOT, but after 2 kids and 50 pounds she is still attractive to me. Given the choice I am not going to leave her.

Unfortunately I guess being smart and independent she feels that if she doesn't want sex, she shouldn't have to give it up. And no, there are no mercy BJs or handjobs. Combine that with being tired from too much work and having a poor body image from 2 kids and 50 extra pounds and you end up with a very frustrated husband.

Sex is a big thing for me... as the weeks between sexings grow I start to get resentful. I start to snark at her a little more and my attitude toward her darkens. I get angry at little things more easily and everything is shitty. Some days I think of leaving her. That is when its time to sneak $300 and visit one of our wonderful ladies. Right now I'm averaging twice a year for this.

I take an "extended lunch" at work, turn off my phone and sate the primal needs.

I come home and I'm HAPPY. Things are bright again, my wife is wonderful, the job is great and the kids are little angels. For the next few weeks I have sunshine and rainbows pouring from my ass. Its funny that my wife notices the good attitude and appreciates me more for the next month or so. We usually end up having sex a week or two after a paid date.

Oh the irony! How do you think she would react? "Wow NAG75, you're really happy the last couple days! To what do I owe the pleasure?"

"I fucked a hooker this afternoon! It was great and I feel so much better now!"

When I'm having a satisfactory sex life (1-2 times a week): I don't bother watching porn, I have no need to jerk off, I notice other women a whole lot less. All the sexual behaviors my wife tolerates but doesn't appreciate vanish. She *knows* this, and yet there is no sex. That is why I say she isn't smart with men.

That was a lot longer than I intended it to be.
NAG75
I hear you loud and clear. While my own situation is not completely identical to yours, it does have some overlapping. I don't care to go through all the details at this point but did want to say that the more married men in my age range I talk to the more I realize how very unhappy many of them are with their sex lives. Except for the odd few who have ideal situations (ones wife is basically a nymph who wants and enjoys sex 1-2/ week and the other guy whose wife I've heard say, "Listen, I'm not always down for sex with him but if he's horny I say you know what, it's not a big deal, let's do this. It's just sex.") Actual quote. God bless her. You think he's going to stray- not fucking likely. And honestly, knowing him, he's happy.

So, what I've found recently is that a few hold onto the idea that they must be noble and true and have no intention of wandering, despite how poor their sex lives are. Many others are not overly resentful but simply need a release and fulfill their sexual appetites occasionally. Others, like myself, have become incredibly resentful after years and years of repeated attempts at resurrecting a once enjoyable sex life. With a wife who holds sex over me like a prize to be won it has become incredibly unappealing. I also love my wife dearly and find her her very attractive still even after a few kids. Thus it kills me that in the last 5 years I would estimate we've had sex 15 times or so, although there's been the occasional mercy HJ (but no BJ's, she's just not into them). Once you have a house, car, friends, family, kids and everything that goes with it you become comfortable with the lifestyle and ending that to try and find some green grass on the other side is probably not going to solve much. So instead I secretly indulge in little rendez-vous with SP's here and there to help me maintain my sanity while my wife continues on oblivious to my needs and ultimately not giving two shits to try and improve it. I have no intention of ever, ever telling a soul of my adventures because that's a recipe for disaster. That's why I love PERB. This is a great outlet.

I know there's many more guys out there feeling the same so feel free to vent or reply.
 

Dgodus

Banned
Nov 5, 2011
855
0
0
Here and There
I used to play competitive baseball for the city when I was young. We all traveled together, practiced alot and played in serious tournaments. If I were to jump to a different city team it would have been a big deal - a betrayal of sorts. However simply playing a pick up game with some other friends didn't mean squat, I mean it's just baseball, its fun, why not play when you want and have some fun so long as your commitments are met and your loyalties are in the right place?

Having said that theres only one situation when I was cheating (long time ago) first year university while the SO wasn't there, it was multiple and seperate instances and as it turned out she was doing the same thing while I was gone (except in her case it was with people I knew, some quite well - makes you question just how good some of your friends are). Outside of that it's always been me on the receiving end of this. But then again there are many activities I prefer to sex (snowboarding, football, basketball) so I dont place a huge priority on it, dont look around at options when I'm with someone, and frankly I am with someone more for the comfort of human contact and being able to drop the BS of walking around "me big strong man, nothing hurt me"

Stats and studies are great and all, but when your life experiences go against them, they really dont mean much. Mine tell me, everyone is trying to get laid, everyone can/will cheat and do so for different reasons - some "harmless" some reasons are spiteful. I will cop to being a little bitter and tired of the "men are pigs" routine, and no matter what you say, if you arne't a pig and you get judged straight off simply based on that you have a dick, yea it is personal and does get old.

As has been mentioned previously here (and other places). Everyone likes sex, and frankly it's disgusting when it's used (by anyone) in a relationship as a tool to get something else for themselves. I fuck you so you should do all this other stuff for me on top of what you already do. Ugh, relationship scorecards are the worst. Even though nearly everything about prostitution is a lie, I still find an sp a more honest woman as I know exactly what they expect out of me; money, cleanliness and politness - no ultierior motives (mainly as I dont have anything that's really exploitable).
 

pacnwus

New member
Oct 21, 2011
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Male ducks (drakes) are notorious for screwing around
Male ducks are also notorious gang rapists. I've seen it happen. It's natural!

In fact I've seen articles that claim polygamy is the dominant relationship model in the Animal Kingdom.

I don't have any sources to cite for this, but I feel (and this is just my opinion here) that humans are naturally Polygamous or at least Polyandrous. I think that monogamy is something we created in order to more easily define social responsabilities of men and facilitate social justice.
Correct. I think the question of whether or not monogamy is "natural" is a bit irrelevant, unless you want to eliminate everything else that's not natural, such as the entirety of modern high-tech society. I think monogamy initially served the role of giving a man a stake in civilization. You can look at it as a form of "sexual rationing". Polygamy allowed men of wealth and power to hoard females, which created a shortage for men of lesser means. If a civilization wishes to make use of such men, it has to enslave them, but slaves aren't willing to invest any more labor necessary than that required to avoid a beating. They're not going to innovate anything, unless you give them a carrot. A world in which merely having a job allowed a man to secure access to a wive and confidence in his line of descent provided a positive incentive for him to actually care about his civilization.

I don't think it's any coincidence that polygamous and polyandrous societies played absolutely no role in creating the modern world. Matrilineal societies consist of disinvested males who like to hunt, gamble and hang out, which is rational for their position -- why bother working any more than necessary if you can't ensure your line of descent? (I'm a pretty good case in point here. I have no kids, no wife or girlfriend, and no car, and I consequently have no ambition beyond that required to pay for my modest hobbies and hedonistic pleasures, traveling and pooning being my largest expenses, and I certainly don't care very much about what happens after I die. If I had offspring that I trusted to be mine, I probably would care.) Polygamous societies had to find some way to kill off their surplus male population.

Getting into a whole other topic... as mentioned here already, kids take 18yrs to raise! Its not realistic to expect 2 people to commit to 18yrs raising one or more children. It is a LOT of work, it takes a lot of resources to do it well and damn, its hard work! That and 18yrs is a loooong time. What if one or more parents dies? I strongly feel that children should be raised by the community as well as the parents.

The community should help when parents can't afford a necessity for their children. There should be MORE people available to help raise children, not less. Community values should be enforced be several adults, not two.

Now, if you have five or six families all taking care of little Billy and Susie and a friend of the family (if only we could still trust people) takes Billy to Hockey and lunch afterwards... and Uncle Matt helps to pay for the Hockey Gear... If we have a whole community pitching in resources and helping to raise kids, as happens in the Animal Kingdom, does it really matter if we are only 90% sure that Chris is the father?
NAG75
We would never have industrialized under this model. The women would garden, gather and look after the kids, while the men would hang out, drink, smoke, fuck, gamble, fight and hunt. Some people might be cool with that, but I'm rather attached to my electricity, indoor plumbing, internet, recorded music, etc. I'm also not comfortable with such strict gender roles, in spite of what my earlier post might have suggested.

Now that we're already modernized, we could probably afford a less strict model as far as monogamy goes, as the economy doesn't seem to require as much human labor as it once did.
 
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violetblake

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I think it's important to understand society's role on why women are the way they are, particularly with the issues mentioned here. Women are raised from birth that any kind of sex that isn't with a significant other is bad, and that they should "save themselves". These days, not necessarily for marriage, but at the very least for a monogamous relationship. It still comes down to the same thing though, that in the end the enjoyment a woman should get out of sex is that she's pleasing her husband/boyfriend, not herself. When you're raised to believe that sex isn't something you should enjoy, guess what? Most women are probably not going to enjoy it. Hence, after a few kids they're not going to even want to bother anymore. Add to that the other issue of society's pressure on women to be beautiful and youthful, an aging woman who's had a couple kids and isn't feeling very sexy, is going to feel even less like having sex. So you have to understand that it's not that women aren't sexual creatures. I fully believe we are just as sexual as men are biologically, but men have always had almost absolute freedom to be sexual. With the two vastly different ways the genders are raised in this regard, no wonder men and women have turned out the way they have. Personally I've always been a stubborn lil fuck who doesn't like to be told what to do, lol. So nobody's going to tell me not to be sexual, however it's not so easy for a lot of women. On a positive note, I do optimistically believe it is slowly changing in some ways, women are kind of allowed to enjoy sex how they please, but with this change also comes a hell of a lot of slut shaming and that causes a whole whack of issues such as victim-blaming, etc.
 

DavidMR

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Stats and studies are great and all, but when your life experiences go against them, they really dont mean much. Mine tell me, everyone is trying to get laid, everyone can/will cheat and do so for different reasons - some "harmless" some reasons are spiteful. I will cop to being a little bitter and tired of the "men are pigs" routine, and no matter what you say, if you arne't a pig and you get judged straight off simply based on that you have a dick, yea it is personal and does get old.
Well said! It does get very tiresome.

I omitted your other paragraphs about sports and college dorm capers because they made me feel inadequate! LOL.
 

DavidMR

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Add to that the other issue of society's pressure on women to be beautiful and youthful, an aging woman who's had a couple kids and isn't feeling very sexy, is going to feel even less like having sex. So you have to understand that it's not that women aren't sexual creatures. I fully believe we are just as sexual as men are biologically, but men have always had almost absolute freedom to be sexual. With the two vastly different ways the genders are raised in this regard, no wonder men and women have turned out the way they have. Personally I've always been a stubborn lil fuck who doesn't like to be told what to do, lol. So nobody's going to tell me not to be sexual, however it's not so easy for a lot of women. On a positive note, I do optimistically believe it is slowly changing in some ways, women are kind of allowed to enjoy sex how they please, but with this change also comes a hell of a lot of slut shaming and that causes a whole whack of issues such as victim-blaming, etc.

Violet I don't mean to argue just for the sake of talking. But do you seriously think that in today's society there isn't pressure on men to stay youngish looking, fit, attractive? Men still don't do the makeup thing, but short of that?

These changes you look forward to, would they include a world in which women looking for sexual partners are going to be willing to accept married or attached men?
 
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