What can be done about the Mexico drug wars

hipdude

Banned
Sep 14, 2011
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Wow I can't believe how horrible the drug wars in Mexico have become. Murdered people found all over the place, decapitations and torture are common among them.

Whole towns are shutting down. Some police forces have become corrupt, so much so that the Mexican army had to take over law enforcement in some places. Mayors killed, reporters killed, bloggers killed... kids too. So bad, so bad.

As I understand it, tons of guns coming over from across the US border, as well as guns left over from civil wars south of Mexico in other countries.

I hear American troops have amassed on the border, and that the US is offering some limited assistance.

What can be done?
 

uncleg

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2006
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Wow I can't believe how horrible the drug wars in Mexico have become. Murdered people found all over the place, decapitations and torture are common among them.

Whole towns are shutting down. Some police forces have become corrupt, so much so that the Mexican army had to take over law enforcement in some places. Mayors killed, reporters killed, bloggers killed... kids too. So bad, so bad.

As I understand it, tons of guns coming over from across the US border, as well as guns left over from civil wars south of Mexico in other countries.

I hear American troops have amassed on the border, and that the US is offering some limited assistance.

What can be done?[/QUOTE]

STOP USING ILLEGAL DRUGS. Simple really.
 

hipdude

Banned
Sep 14, 2011
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MAKE DRUGS LEGAL. Simple really.
The problem is far more complex than what a simple answer could solve.
Make them legal, then there will be a turf war, even if the government gets involved in regulating the market.... because drugs would still be so profitable that an underground market would still exist.

Also, this isn't marijuana, its the much harsher stuff. Legalizing it would then obligate the government to take responsibility for the harshness of the drug, the addiction, etc. Then the government gets involved in welfare for drug addicts, health care rights for drug addicts, etc. The government also then gets involved in making sure kids don't fall prey to it, because the drugs now become the responsibility of the government.

If you read CNN today, the situation is so bad, this is happening:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/28/world/americas/mexico-violence/index.html

CNN) -- Five severed human heads were found near an elementary school in Acapulco, Mexico, an area where some schools had already canceled classes because of lack of security.

The heads were found Tuesday inside a sack that had been placed inside a small wooden crate, the Guerrero state public security secretariat said. Officials gave no further details other than to confirm that the heads had been found.

Teachers this month held protests over threats they received, presumably from drug cartels.

The calls threatened harm if teachers did not pay a portion of their salaries to the drug gangs.
Teacher extortion in Mexico
Teacher extortion in Mexico

Schools that refused to pay the kickbacks would be attacked, the threats said.

Late last month, right at the beginning of the school year, teachers fled from about 75 schools after receiving threats. Administrators and other personnel also refused to go to work and many schools were left empty and padlocked from outside for two weeks
 

whoisjohngalt

Member
Aug 4, 2009
147
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Vancouver area
Hank is right on this, it really is quite simple when you cut through all of the whitewash. If the US, Canada and Mexico all decriminalized the use and production of narcotics, then the violence and corruption would quickly cease. If you don't believe this then consider alcohol. When do you ever hear about gang wars over moonshine, except for during the prohibition era? There are of course political realities that will prevent this policy from being adopted but it seems to be the case that more and more people are starting to wake up to the abject failure of narcotics prohibition.
 

HeMadeMeDoIt

New member
Feb 12, 2004
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Use predators armed with hellfire missiles against the cartel kingpins and their employees!
 

uncleg

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2006
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MAKE DRUGS LEGAL. Simple really.
Really ??? Legal cocaine, legal crack, legal heroin, etc.........don't you think we have enough problems with alcohol as it is ?
 

Devo

Member
Aug 16, 2003
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I love the naivety of those who believe that legalizing drugs will simply make all of the problems go away. They probably also believe that the criminals who are used to making easy money and enjoying an extravagant lifestyle will simply give it all up and get a manual labor job breaking their ass for minimum wage.

Kidnapping and extortion is a big part of the problem in Mexico. Perhaps we should legalize that to.
 

uncleg

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2006
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Thing is, people who are stupid enough to use will get it illegally anyways.

They are doing that now, aren't they ? Which is why we have the various "drug wars" and "wars on drugs."
 

chilli

Member
Jul 25, 2005
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The problem is far more complex than what a simple answer could solve.
Make them legal, then there will be a turf war, even if the government gets involved in regulating the market.... because drugs would still be so profitable that an underground market would still exist.

Also, this isn't marijuana, its the much harsher stuff. Legalizing it would then obligate the government to take responsibility for the harshness of the drug, the addiction, etc. Then the government gets involved in welfare for drug addicts, health care rights for drug addicts, etc. The government also then gets involved in making sure kids don't fall prey to it, because the drugs now become the responsibility of the government.[/B]
There already has been and will continue to be a "turf war" over drugs between gangs - I don't know how you can be so naive.

Our current drug policies don't work, and never will work.

The fact is people that use - will use.

I can get marijuana any day of the week from friends - I choose not to use.

Legalize it, tax it.

As for harder drugs - personally I don't have a problem with legalizing them too.

Drugs being illegal didn't stop Amy Whinehouse from committing suicide.

Plus - I've never heard or met anyone addicted to marijuana that's either killed themselves, or killed anyone else. FFs Viagra has more side effects than marijuana.

We live in an ignorant society filled with biases and prejudices.
 

whoisjohngalt

Member
Aug 4, 2009
147
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Vancouver area
I love the naivety of those who believe that legalizing drugs will simply make all of the problems go away. They probably also believe that the criminals who are used to making easy money and enjoying an extravagant lifestyle will simply give it all up and get a manual labor job breaking their ass for minimum wage.

Kidnapping and extortion is a big part of the problem in Mexico. Perhaps we should legalize that to.
Drugs should be decriminalized as a matter of principle. There is no justification for using the coercive power of the state to punish people for choosing to ingest certain substances. The indisputable fact that this will also reduce criminal activity is an added bonus, but is not the primary justification for decriminalization.

Your tongue in cheek comment about legalizing extortion and kidnapping suggests to me that you haven't given this issue much thought.
 

wet_suit_one

Rule by Fear!
May 19, 2004
244
2
0
The problem is far more complex than what a simple answer could solve.
Make them legal, then there will be a turf war, even if the government gets involved in regulating the market.... because drugs would still be so profitable that an underground market would still exist.

Also, this isn't marijuana, its the much harsher stuff. Legalizing it would then obligate the government to take responsibility for the harshness of the drug, the addiction, etc. Then the government gets involved in welfare for drug addicts, health care rights for drug addicts, etc. The government also then gets involved in making sure kids don't fall prey to it, because the drugs now become the responsibility of the government.
Why doesn't this happen with cigarette companies? Pretty sure you are precisely wrong. If you could access the courts to settle your legal disputes, why pick up a gun? You might also get killed you know. No one gets killed going to court.

Just sayin'.
 

wet_suit_one

Rule by Fear!
May 19, 2004
244
2
0
I love the naivety of those who believe that legalizing drugs will simply make all of the problems go away. They probably also believe that the criminals who are used to making easy money and enjoying an extravagant lifestyle will simply give it all up and get a manual labor job breaking their ass for minimum wage.

Kidnapping and extortion is a big part of the problem in Mexico. Perhaps we should legalize that to.
When they are outcompeted in a free marketplace and no one wants to buy from them anymore because they are scary ass motherfucker, yeah, pretty sure they'll change jobs because they'll be out of business. Forcing everyone to deal with you is a lot harder when the government stops limiting your competition by superior retailers.

And, I don't think they'll have as much business being bad asses as assassins and hit men and muscle when its legal. Why hire them for ridiculous sums and face legal liability for their actions when you can just hire Securitas and go to court?

You too Devo are precisely wrong.

Sure, there will be white collar criminals (just like there is on Wall Street and Bay Street now), but no one will be afraid to walk down the street because of them.

They'll have to find another line of criminal work to carry on. What will be left that's anywhere near as profitable as drugs? Do tell....
 

Devo

Member
Aug 16, 2003
316
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Canada
Drugs should be decriminalized as a matter of principle. There is no justification for using the coercive power of the state to punish people for choosing to ingest certain substances. The indisputable fact that this will also reduce criminal activity is an added bonus, but is not the primary justification for decriminalization.

Your tongue in cheek comment about legalizing extortion and kidnapping suggests to me that you haven't given this issue much thought.
My comment about legalizing extortion and kidnapping was made to illustrate the naive and ridiculous notion that the legalization of drugs at any level would cure Mexico's organized crime epidemic.

Your idea to simply legalize an illegal behavior and it will simply go away, become manageable, or have a substantially less detrimental affect on society, illustrates that you really don't comprehend the issue.
 

whoisjohngalt

Member
Aug 4, 2009
147
1
18
Vancouver area
My comment about legalizing extortion and kidnapping was made to illustrate the naive and ridiculous notion that the legalization of drugs at any level would cure Mexico's organized crime epidemic.

Your idea to simply legalize an illegal behavior and it will simply go away, become manageable, or have a substantially less detrimental affect on society, illustrates that you really don't comprehend the issue.
You made a weak analogy that does not stand up to scrutiny. Extortion and kidnapping are properly considered criminal acts as they violate the rights and freedoms of innocents. Choosing to consume certain types of plants is not criminal by any reasonable definition.

As I mentioned previously, I come at this issue from a standpoint of principles rather than pragmatics. I do not suggest that decriminalization would eliminate all drug related problems. But it will quite certainly curtail the opportunity for criminals to profit from its trade, just as there are virtually no social ills related to bootlegging of legalized drugs such as alcohol and tobacco. furthermore, if prohibition were a successful way of limiting drug abuse as you seem to believe, then come to the Downtown East-side some time and see for yourself how successful that strategy has been.
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
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victoria
Why doesn't this happen with cigarette companies? Pretty sure you are precisely wrong. If you could access the courts to settle your legal disputes, why pick up a gun? You might also get killed you know. No one gets killed going to court.

Just sayin'.
You don't see Seagrams and Jim Beam blowing each other up either. Well, there is that death feud between Molsons and Coors with all the drive-bys.....
 

hipdude

Banned
Sep 14, 2011
44
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0
As I mentioned previously, I come at this issue from a standpoint of principles rather than pragmatics. I do not suggest that decriminalization would eliminate all drug related problems. But it will quite certainly curtail the opportunity for criminals to profit from its trade, just as there are virtually no social ills related to bootlegging of legalized drugs such as alcohol and tobacco. furthermore, if prohibition were a successful way of limiting drug abuse as you seem to believe, then come to the Downtown East-side some time and see for yourself how successful that strategy has been.
People advocate the solution to legalize it, saying it's as simple as that.
Well if it is a simple solution, then analyzing that solution should be simple too. The reasoning goes something like this: if it is legal, you take away the context of other illegal activity that makes the trade of it dangerous and at the same time profiting from its regulation and sale. The analysis of the reasoning? I contend that those advocating the solution barely analyze that reasoning. Instead they go ad-hominem saying that opponents are backward, not open minded, biased, prejudiced, etc.

What is missing in the reasoning behind legality is the nature of the contraband itself. It is NOT like alcohol or tobacco. It has extreme consequences to mental and physical health, and those consequences are immediate. They are extremely addictive, much more so than alcohol or tobacco. Comparisons such as, "viagra has more side-effects than marijuana" are silly.

These highly dangerous to health, mental health, and highly addictive substances could destroy society if use becomes more widespread. There is a limit to liberalization of rights to hurt oneself as one chooses. A significant number of citizens are incapable of responsible action in the face of vices. These people need to be controlled, and the way to control them vis-a-vis drugs is to keep them from ever having it. You forget that citizens also includes minors. Exposure to these substances at an early age, due to their widespread access, is disastrous.

Indonesia virtually puts to death everyone trafficking in drugs, including marijuana. While this is far extreme, the reason is that they cite the proximity of the availability of drug plants in South-East Asia, the push by some Australian citizens to profit from selling drugs, and that European societies lose entire generations to drugs. Indonesians do not want a waste-land of its citizens lost to drug addiction. As a consequence, their country is cleaner and more peaceful than vice-ridden Thailand, freer of sex and drug exploitation by foreigners. They hope to be an economic powerhouse like Singapore and Malaysia, whose drug laws are nearly as extreme.
 

hipdude

Banned
Sep 14, 2011
44
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0
Ahh!!! I get your point. hard drug users, cannot control themselves. Sort of like a female dog in heat. And your solution is to leave that dog loose in your front yard and shoot every male dog it attracts rather than just dealing with your dog being in heat. Well that's one solution. But of course the male dogs just keep on coming so long as the female is in heat & available & one or two always manages to get through to seal the deal.
You didn't get my point.

I am making many points. Not only do hard drug users have trouble controlling themselves, these drugs makes people addicted faster - they turn far more normal people who experiment with drugs into hard drug users.

You got the analogy wrong about the female dog in heat too. The solution is not to leave the female dog out and shoot every male dog. The solution is to lock the female dog away, if the female dog is the addictive substance, and to shoot the owner of the female dog for being irresponsible in leaving it out.

Your solution is to pimp the female dog out and have the government collecting the money.
 
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