Is BO Grounds for Firing Someone?

Fudd

Banned
Apr 30, 2004
1,037
0
0
We've got this guy in the office that has really bad body odor. His coworkers have complained and I heard a client has also mentioned this. The cause of the problem seems to be that he bikes to work and arrives sweaty and there are no shower facilities in the office.

Someone else has spoken to him about this matter and suggested he drive to work or bus it. I was not party to this, but his response apparently was that he was doing his environmentally friendly thing or something like that. He has also insulted other coworkers regarding their weight and suggested they bike to work as well.

He's continued and people just avoided or tolerated it for a while. But, recently, he had a meeting with a potential client, which the client cut short. He just stayed half and hour for a presentation that should have been at least one and a half hours. His BO may have cost us a job. We are now considering getting rid of this guy. The company also has other problems with him however these problems by them selves but are fairly minor and would not be grounds for getting rid of him. But the possible lose of a job is something we can't afford. So is getting rid of this guy for BO just cause? Any body here have employment standards or personnel experience?
 

hitrack

I'LL KILL YA ALL!!
Feb 25, 2003
3,881
0
0
Surrey
This guy has heard of deodorant....right???

God knows every time ya turn on the fukkin TV it's full of gum adds, pit stick adds, TAG body spray.

Why doesn't the guy when he gets to work just slap on some pit stick, or some body spray and everyones happy.
 

wolfd

Banned
Jun 17, 2005
24
0
0
Bad BO

Fudd said:
We've got this guy in the office that has really bad body odor. His coworkers have complained and I heard a client has also mentioned this. The cause of the problem seems to be that he bikes to work and arrives sweaty and there are no shower facilities in the office.

Someone else has spoken to him about this matter and suggested he drive to work or bus it. I was not party to this, but his response apparently was that he was doing his environmentally friendly thing or something like that. He has also insulted other coworkers regarding their weight and suggested they bike to work as well.

He's continued and people just avoided or tolerated it for a while. But, recently, he had a meeting with a potential client, which the client cut short. He just stayed half and hour for a presentation that should have been at least one and a half hours. His BO may have cost us a job. We are now considering getting rid of this guy. The company also has other problems with him however these problems by them selves but are fairly minor and would not be grounds for getting rid of him. But the possible lose of a job is something we can't afford. So is getting rid of this guy for BO just cause? Any body here have employment standards or personnel experience?
I don't think its grounds to get rid of him as you would have a tough time proving you lost a job because of the BO. I think you would open yourself up for unjust dismissal. I mean what are you going to do - bring a potential client before the labour hearing to testify he walked out of a presentation because your fella stank? Not too likely.
 
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Maury Beniowski

Blastocyst
Mar 31, 2004
1,869
1
0
In a nice wet pussy!
Buy him a bottle of rubbing alcohol ($2.00). It works wonders with body odour, and lasts 2-3 days. Don't use deodorant. It has very limited effectiveness; anti-perspirants are actually bad for you as they plug up the pores that flush out toxins from the body.
 

FuZzYknUckLeS

Monkey Abuser
May 11, 2005
2,212
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0
Schmocation
Warn him first, if he doesn't improve to your satisfaction, fire the fucker.
The firm I am with fired a guy for exactly this reason a few years ago.
 

maverick73

Banned
Feb 2, 2005
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Spinnerville, BC
I dunno, but where I'm from, we prefer DUFF! :p
 

metoo113

Member
Aug 2, 2002
407
0
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Somewhere Down The Crazy River
If an employee contstantly had BO and if I talked to them and they still smelt bad I would fire them. You don't need that stuff.
 

Fudd

Banned
Apr 30, 2004
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0
I was just handed this task this week. So I haven't been involved with all the attempts to get this guy to clean up his act.

This has been going on for more than a year, and I believe the manager has made up his mind to get rid of the guy. A lawsuit for unjust dismissal is what we are worried about so I've been instructed to explore this possibility and look at the employment regulations. But I guess I should verify that the company has made all attempts to correct the problem before we take the next step.

As for the deodorant or body spray to cover up the BO, all I know is he wears cologne but he still smells like a wet and moldy rug that you spilled cologne on. I'm just glad I don't have to work with him too closely.

Personally, I would have canned him for his comment to the over weight girl in the office. She almost broke out in tears.

Although I do think the environment thing is important, installing a shower in the office for just this one guy would be costly, I don't believe this building even has a single shower. And bending over to accommodate this one guy because he bikes to work would be ridiculous.
 

Herb_The_Perb

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2005
2,011
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0
Far South of the Border
This is utterly ridiculous.
He could at least keep a spare set of dress clothes around, towel off in the restroom wash under his arms when he gets in to work, and change into the fresh clothes. And yes, he should use deodorant after he's washed his pits.

You could have the staff formally petition management about him in writing, and if he doesn't change his ways, can his sorry butt and give his job to Squirrel, who just got fired today.

There, that takes care of two problems.
 

Massagegirl

Banned
Mar 25, 2003
891
1
0
Can't you just send a memo with new guidelines? Seems to me it should be under dress code, if a person has to appear presentable, they should smell presentable!
 

BS Detector

Active member
Sep 7, 2003
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Perhaps you might get more

relaible answers by asking labour standard directly??? I would think that no company can be forced to employ someone it does not want to employ but there are legal remedies if you do not comply by prescribed standards. Worst case scenario would be (what you mentioned) a wrongful dismissal suit. If he has not been there that long, it wuld not be for that much. Guessing about a week's pay per year he's been there??? If you want to dump the guy, document EVERYTHING. Warn him (preferable written warning), monitor changes, document, document and document.

Again, just my opinion. Best to talk to labour standards directly. I wouldn't even bother with the expense of a lawyer unless you get a free consultation of labour standards thinks it could be a messy and complicated case.
 
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noneasgood

Banned
Jul 8, 2005
343
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0
Fudd said:
I was just handed this task this week. So I haven't been involved with all the attempts to get this guy to clean up his act.

This has been going on for more than a year, and I believe the manager has made up his mind to get rid of the guy. A lawsuit for unjust dismissal is what we are worried about so I've been instructed to explore this possibility and look at the employment regulations. But I guess I should verify that the company has made all attempts to correct the problem before we take the next step.

As for the deodorant or body spray to cover up the BO, all I know is he wears cologne but he still smells like a wet and moldy rug that you spilled cologne on. I'm just glad I don't have to work with him too closely.

Personally, I would have canned him for his comment to the over weight girl in the office. She almost broke out in tears.

Although I do think the environment thing is important, installing a shower in the office for just this one guy would be costly, I don't believe this building even has a single shower. And bending over to accommodate this one guy because he bikes to work would be ridiculous.

Why don't you do the smart thing and contact a Lawyer who specializes in employment issues?

Why you would expect a legal opinion on perb is beyond me, unless Ghostie knows this well enough to voice his opinion.

Also there may be a certain protical necessary, such as given him written warnings etc. which might be required. Labour Employment standards would likely have this information.

But you should proceed on the basis that this guy will be seeking a legal opinion once he's been giving his walking papers and conduct yourself accordingly. Perhaps handing him a severence package based on him not taking legal action is one option.

This reminds me of a funny story. I use to be a property manager and one of the tenants was a CA firm, and in fact they owned the building. Anyway, apparently the men's washroom never had proper circulation and when the guys would take a dump, finish, then open the door, the workers near the washroom got god aweful smells hovering over them..quite the embarrassing problem.
 

wolverine

Hard Throbbing Member
Nov 11, 2002
6,385
9
38
E-Town
If this guy is in a position to meet with clients then he has to adhere to certain standards re: personal presentation, hygiene, etc. After all, this guy is representing your company, and his hygiene issues would reflect badly on you guys.

As for the issue of showers...it wouldn't be just him that would use it, would it? What about the workers who jog at lunchtime? Or the guy who's going to see an escort once he gets off work?
 

planetsmurf

papa smurf
Apr 13, 2005
1,109
2
0
yah if he deals with the public which it sounds like he does then he has to adhere to certain requirements like not smelling like garbage heap, i say that he has to at least to smell decent whenever he deals with the public
 

mustangjoe

Active member
May 16, 2004
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36
Just leave a BO stick on his desk while he is away.. maybe the fucker will take a hint..
 

BS Detector

Active member
Sep 7, 2003
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Put a bucket of water

over his desk with a rope attached to it. When he sits down, someone walk by and give the rope a tug. Instant shower :p
 

sdw

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Jul 14, 2005
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Every employer has a choice when they want to terminate an employee.

They can go for "Just Cause" which requires that they have a formal meeting with the person and lay out guidelines. Then if the guidelines are ignored, they can terminate for just cause.

It's actually faster and less painfull to terminate and pay the required amount set in the act. The max is 8 weeks pay and the terminated employee cannot come back on you. The 8 weeks pay does not include leave that is already owed and the final pay must pay the employee the vacation leave that they would have earned if they had worked for the 8 weeks.

If an employer chooses to have the employee work during the 8 weeks, they run the danger that the employee may become "sick" and delay the final termination date.

The Act is pasted below:

Part 1

Interpretation Guidelines Manual
British Columbia Employment Standards Act and Regulations

Employment Standards Act Part 8, Termination of Employment
ESA Section 63 – Liability resulting from length of service

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Contents:

Summary
Text of Legislation
Policy Interpretation
Related Information


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Summary

This section details when an employee is entitled to compensation for length of service and how these wages are calculated, and includes how this wage liability can be discharged with written notice or a combination of pay and notice. This section also establishes specific employment situations where an employee is not entitled to compensation for length of service or written notice of termination.


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Text of Legislation

63. (1) After 3 consecutive months of employment, the employer becomes liable to pay an employee an amount equal to one week's wages as compensation for length of service.

(2) The employer's liability for compensation for length of service increases as follows:

(a) after 12 consecutive months of employment, to an amount equal to 2 weeks' wages;

(b) after 3 consecutive years of employment, to an amount equal to 3 weeks' wages plus one additional week's wages for each additional year of employment, to a maximum of 8 weeks' wages.
(3) The liability is deemed to be discharged if the employee


(a) is given written notice of termination as follows:

(i) one week's notice after 3 consecutive months of employment;

(ii) 2 weeks' notice after 12 consecutive months of employment;

(iii) 3 weeks' notice after 3 consecutive years of employment, plus one additional week for each additional year of employment, to a maximum of 8 weeks' notice;
(b) is given a combination of written notice under subsection (3) (a) and money equivalent to the amount the employer is liable to pay, or

(c) terminates the employment, retires from employment, or is dismissed for just cause.

(4) The amount the employer is liable to pay becomes payable on termination of the employment and is calculated by

(a) totalling all the employee's weekly wages, at the regular wage, during the last 8 weeks in which the employee worked normal or average hours of work,

(b) dividing the total by 8, and

(c) multiplying the result by the number of weeks' wages the employer is liable to pay.
(5) For the purpose of determining the termination date under this section, the employment of an employee who is laid off for more than a temporary layoff is deemed to have been terminated at the beginning of the layoff.


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Policy Interpretation

Subsections (1) and (2)

An employee after being employed 3 consecutive months is entitled to compensation for length of service on termination of employment. The employer instead of paying compensation for length of service may provide written working notice of termination or a combination of notice and pay as noted in s.63(3).

The employer’s liability for compensation for length of service increases as the employee’s length of service increases. Once an employee has completed 3 consecutive months of employment, if the employer terminates the employment relationship, the employer is required to give compensation for length of service as shown below:
After three consecutive months of employment - one week’s pay.
After 12 consecutive months of employment - two weeks’ pay
After three consecutive years - three weeks’ pay, plus one week’s pay for each additional year of employment to a maximum of eight weeks.
The start date of employment

A person becomes an employee when first reporting to work as required by an employer. Prior to employment the employer and prospective employee usually agree to certain conditions of employment including an employment start date. Employment commences once a person performs work or reports to work as required by the employer for the first time after agreeing to become an employee.

“Length of service”

“Length of service” is the length of time from the employee’s first day of work to the date of termination. Periods of absence due to pregnancy or parental leave, employer approved leaves of absence, jury duty, or temporary layoff, whether paid or unpaid, are included in the employee’s length of service and are considered continuous for the purposes of termination entitlement.

Sale of a business

If a business experiences a change in ownership and an employee continues to work in the business, the employment is typically deemed continuous and uninterrupted (see s.97, sale of business or assets)

Limitation to enforcement of compensation for length of service

The statutory requirement to pay compensation for length of service …”to a maximum of 8 weeks’ wages.” means the director can only enforce the statutory requirements as set out in s.63 of the Act. An employment contract between the parties providing notice or compensation in excess of the standards set out in s.63 is not enforceable under the Employment Standards Act.

See s.63(4) to calculate the amount of pay payable on termination of employment.

Vacation pay applies to compensation for length of service

Compensation for length of service is defined as “wages” in s.1 of the Act and as such vacation pay is payable on this compensation.

Subsections 3(a) and (b)

An employer may give the departing employee written working notice of termination or a combination of pay and notice instead of providing compensation for length of service.

Required weeks of written notice or compensation and notice are as follows:
Year of employment completed Notice or pay and notice entitlement
Upon Completing:
Year 1 (0 - 3 months) 0 week
Year 1 (after 3 months up to 12 months) 1 week
Year 2 (after12 months up to 24 months) 2 weeks
Year 3 (after 24 months up to 36 months) 2 weeks
Year 4 (after 36 months up to 48 months) 3 weeks
Year 5 (after 48 months up to 60 months) 4 weeks
Year 6 (after 60 months up to 72 months) 5 weeks
Year 7 (after 72 months up to 84 months) 6 weeks
Year 8 (after 84 months up to 96 months) 7 weeks
Year 9 (after 96 months) 8 weeks
 

sdw

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Part 2

A “month” is defined in the Interpretation Act as a period calculated from a day in one month to a day numerically corresponding to that day in the following month, less one day.

Example

Sue starts work on June 1, 2000. She is temporarily laid off for 6 weeks in January and February of 2003. After returning to work, Sue is terminated on June 1, 2003. She is entitled to 3 weeks compensation for length of service because she completed more than 3 years of employment on May 31, 2003 and was terminated on June 1, 2003. The employer would not have had to pay compensation for length of service if the employer had given written notice of termination or a combination of notice and money equivalent to 3 weeks compensation.
Once an employee is given written notice of termination, they are entitled to work during their notice period. Once notice is given, conditions of employment, including hours of work must not be altered without the consent of the employee or trade union representing the employee, if applicable.

Court proceedings impacted by payment of compensation for length of service

Receipt of compensation for length of service resulting from proceedings under the Employment Standards Act may serve as a bar to proceeding in court. Parties are encouraged to seek independent legal advice concerning matters before the courts. In addition, complainants with employment contracts that provide termination terms in excess of the standards set out in s.63 of the Act are encouraged to seek legal advice prior to filing a complaint with the Employment Standards Branch.

Director may refuse to investigate a complaint

The director may refuse to investigate a complaint regarding termination of employment for just cause if it is the subject of a proceeding in the courts or before another tribunal.


The Act does not require employees to mitigate their losses

This means compensation for length of service that an employee is entitled to under this Act is not reduced because of money an employee may receive from another source.

Subsection (3)(c)

The employer is not required to pay compensation of length of service or to provide written working notice of termination when an:
employee quits employment
employee retires
employee is dismissed for just cause
employee is employed at construction sites by an employer whose principal business is construction.
Section 65 of the Act outlines other circumstances when written notice or compensation for length of service does not apply. Part 7 of the Employment Standards Regulation sets out professions and occupations that are exempt from all or parts of the Employment Standards Act.

Notice of Resignation

There is no requirement under the Employment Standards Act for an employee to give notice of resignation.

However, if an employee does give notice of resignation that is less than or equal to their entitlement under this section of the Act, and the employer then terminates the employee during this period, the employee would be entitled to compensation equal to the lesser of the notice they gave, or the statutory entitlement under this section of the Act.

Example

Donna, who has completed 4 years of employment, provides her employer with two week’s notice of their intention to quit. Upon receiving the notice, the employer terminates Donna without just cause. Donna would be entitled to 2 week’s compensation for length of service in keeping with the length of notice she had provided to her employer.
Quit versus Fire

Sometimes disputes arise as to whether an employee quit or was fired. The onus for proving an employer is relieved of the need to give written notice or compensation for termination is on the employer who asserts it.

Zoltan Kiss; (B.C. EST #D091/96) sets out a test used to determine whether an employee quit or was fired, for the purpose of the Employment Standards Act:

“The right to quit is personal to the employee and there must be clear and unequivocal fact to support a conclusion that this right has been voluntarily exercised by the employee involved. There is both a subjective and objective element to a quit; subjectively, the employee must form an intent to quit employment; objectively, the employee must carry out an act inconsistent with his or her employment.”
Retirement

Although the usual retirement age is 65, an individual may choose to retire at any age.

Under the Act, an employer is not required to pay compensation for length of service or provide written notice when an employee retires voluntarily or retires at a set age in accordance with the employee's employment contract or any applicable legislation.

Just Cause

An employer is not required to pay compensation or to provide written working notice of termination if an employee is dismissed for just cause. Again, the onus for proving that an employer is relieved of the need to give notice or compensation for termination is on the employer who asserts it.

When an employee, not covered by a collective agreement, is terminated without just cause, recourse exists through:

statute law (Employment Standards Act and Regulation, Human Rights Act)
common law action for wrongful dismissal
The Human Rights Act addresses situations where there is an allegation that employment has been terminated for reasons of discrimination. The Employment Standards Act also prohibits an employer from terminating employment for reasons related to pregnancy or leaves under the Act.
Examples of “just cause” for termination

There is no rule of law outlining what degree of employee misconduct constitutes “just cause”. There is, however, a test to be considered. “Did the employee behave in a manner that is not consistent with the continuation of employment?” Courts have recognized the following actions, among others, to be just cause for termination:
willful misconduct
gross incompetence
theft
fraud
conflict of interest
serious undermining of the corporate culture
serious breach of employer rules and policies (sexual harassment violation)
failure to respond appropriately to corrective discipline
The burden of proving if the conduct of the employee justifies dismissal is on the employer. Whether just cause exists is a matter of finding, taking into accounts the circumstances and relevant factors in a particular case.

Willful misconduct

It is often accepted that wilful misconduct means that the employee knew what they were required to do, and deliberately did not do it, or the reverse – knew what was not permitted, but did it anyway. An employer must prove that the employee was aware that the consequence of their actions would lead to dismissal. A mistake, however, especially if due to inexperience or lack of training, is not considered to be wilful misconduct.
 

sdw

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Jul 14, 2005
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Part 3

Poor performance, low productivity, absenteeism, or tardiness

Other reasons for dismissal, like poor performance, low productivity, absenteeism or tardiness, require corrective discipline in order to justify just cause. The employer must be able to demonstrate that the employee was given clear and unequivocal warning that their performance or level of competence was unacceptable and would result in termination of employment if not improved. The employee must also be given a reasonable period of time to meet the required standard.

Theft, fraud, dishonesty and conflict of interest

Some activities such as theft, fraud, dishonesty and conflict of interest require only one provable incident to justify dismissal without compensation or notice. When dismissing an employee for theft, the alleged theft must be proven “on the balance of probabilities”. It must be taken to a standard beyond circumstantial or speculation. There must be clear and convincing evidence that no other conclusion is reasonable.

Personal safety at risk

Any activity which puts the employee’s or others’ personal safety at serious risk constitutes just cause. By way of example: failure to engage in safety precautions (a miner drilling during a blasting period, or locking out a power source before repairing machinery); or failure to comply with legal requirements (attempting to operate a motor vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or drugs or while a driver’s licence has been suspended).

Whether or not the above actions will constitute just cause will depend on the facts and circumstances of each individual case.

The director does not consider the following to be just cause:
personality conflict
redundancy (elimination of a position)
an employer’s doubts about the employee’s behaviour during the notice period
Corrective Discipline

There is no requirement for an employer to warn the employee in writing. A finding that no written warning was given does not automatically lead to the conclusion that there is no just cause. While it is easier to prove, it is not required.

In determining whether just cause exists, the director will consider the concept of corrective discipline as outlined below. Corrective discipline involves attempts by employers to correct unsatisfactory performance or behaviour by:
setting reasonable standards of performance
communicating the standards to employees
telling employees when they are not meeting the standards
providing the training or tools, if applicable, and a reasonable period to meet the standards
telling employees that failure to meet the standards is serious and will result in termination
Corrective discipline must be applied in a reasonable manner

Employees failing to respond to corrective discipline may be terminated for just cause. The termination must relate to the matters that gave rise to the corrective discipline. The onus is on the employer to prove that there has been a proper application of corrective discipline procedures.

Subsection (4)

This subsection sets out the calculation method to be used in determining the amount of compensation for length of service payable on termination of employment.

Overtime wages are excluded from the calculation

Only weekly wages payable at regular wage are included in the calculation. Overtime wages earned under ss.40 and 37 of the Act are excluded. If an employee were excluded from the overtime pay provisions of the Act by regulation, such as a “manager”, regular wage for all hours worked would be included in the calculation.

Weeks of work used in calculation

The 8-week calculation period is limited to weeks in which some “work” was performed. Any week an employee has not worked or when the only wages paid were a result of annual vacation or statutory holiday pay under the Act would be excluded.

“Normal” or “Average” weekly hours

Establishing “normal” or “average” weekly hours of work is determined by the circumstances of each employment situation.
Determine whether the employee has worked “normal hours of work”.

“ Normal” weekly hours are the hours an employee regularly works. “Normal” weekly hours refers to a circumstance in which the employee has a consistent schedule of hours of work from week to week and those hours usually do not fluctuate from week to week.

Where an employee’s normal weekly schedule has been temporarily reduced (not a normal seasonal reduction) in one or more weeks during the last 8 weeks in which the employee worked, due to reasons such as illness or a change in the schedule, the calculation under this section will exclude the reduced week(s) from the calculation.

Example:

Fred is entitled to one weeks’ compensation for length of service. His schedule over the last eleven weeks of work is as follows:

Employment terminates the day prior to week one:
Week one 40 hours
Week two 40 hours
Week three No hours
Week four Week of annual vacation
Week five 37 hours (3 days off sick)
Week six 47 hours (7 hours of overtime)
Week seven 40 hours
Week eight 40 hours
Week nine 40 hours
Week ten 40 hours
Week eleven 40 hours
Weeks 3 and 4 are excluded from the calculation since they were not worked.
Week 5 is excluded since it was not “normal”.
Week 6 hours are calculated as 40 since 7 hours of overtime is excluded.

Fred is entitled to receive 40 hours of compensation for length of service since 40 is the normal hours of work for a one-week period.

“Normal” weekly hours may change during the year, such as when based on seasonal requirements.
Example

A company whose operational requirements fluctuate on a seasonal basis, the employee’s normal hours of work may change from season to season. It may be normal for the employee to work 20 hours each week in October and November and 40 hours each week for the rest of the year.

If the employees’ employment were terminated without written notice of termination at the end of November they would receive 20 hours per week in compensation for length of service, because this was their normal hours of work for the last eight-week period. Conversely if employment was terminated at the end of September they would receive 40 hours per week in compensation for length of service, as their normal hours of work in the last eight- week period was 40.
In the above example if the employee worked the six weeks prior to October at 40 hours a week and then worked the final 2 weeks of employment in November at the normal of 20 hours per week the calculation would be based on the total of the “normal” hours worked over the last 8 weeks of employment:


6 weeks x 40 hours per week = 240 hours
2 weeks x 20 hours per week = 40 hours

Total weekly hours during the last 8 weeks employee worked “normal” hours of work are 280. The total of 280 is divided by 8 = 35 hours per week. The resulting 35 hours is multiplied by the number of weeks entitlement an employer is required to pay under s.63(2).


Only where “normal” weekly hours cannot be established, such as where the hours of work fluctuate weekly, the calculation is based on the total of all weekly wages during the last 8 weeks in which the employee worked. These total wages are then divided by 8 and multiplied by the number of weeks’ entitlement an employer is required to pay under subsection 63(2).
 
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