Asian Fever

[SUZY] So, a doctor just told me...

CJ Tylers

Retired Sr. Member
Jan 3, 2003
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So I was having a beer with old friends the other day, and they happened to bring out a friend of theirs that was an off duty doctor. He brought up the recent SC ruling, saying that he supported it for the harm reduction it represents. He THEN proceeded to inform me that the medical statistics regarding the *average* age of "working girls" in BC is 13.

WTF?

Now... is this correct, or are the medical statistics grossly out of whack? If they are, there needs to be some serious re education going on. *If* they are correct, we need to do some serious clean up in this industry.

So what's the goods? I'm more than a little disturbed by this information, and only slightly less disturbed if it's false and that they have very inaccurate data. According to him, it's based on the working "girls" that show up at hospital or to clinics... that was what he said when I called him on what seemed like magic numbers.
 

CJ Tylers

Retired Sr. Member
Jan 3, 2003
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It appears false... which is what I called him on. That said, we're the normal guys that deal with the above board subset of the industry. If there is a significant child abuse portion that dwarfs the legal side wrt age, then his statement could be correct. Just because we deal with an average age of 30+, does not necessarily mean than the entire sex industry average age is 30+, when taking into account the various legal and illegal avenues.

So, either there is a massive child abuse situation at hand, or somehow the medical establishment has been tricked into believing in the tooth fairy, santa, and magical numbers. Both options are unsettling, and need to be redressed.

Maybe there's an epidemic of 13 year olds having intimate relations, and then claiming they have been dragged into prostitution in order to cover their choices. I honestly don't know...I just don't like that the medical profession is spouting off numbers like this.

The obvious answer isn't always the correct one, especially when dealing with politics and moral agendas. Clear thinking means considering all angles, not assuming one because it suits our purposes.
 

normisanas

Banned
Nov 23, 2009
603
1
0
For some people, a lot of education leads to losing common sense and the ability to believe anything. Because his mind is weak, his education has led him to be influenced by politics, authority, his peers, or things written on official paper, or the news.

Now don't fall prey to what he has and start questioning reality. Just scoff loudly at what he says and put the good doctor in his place.
 

cherise

lounge access denied :(
Aug 6, 2012
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are you positive he didn't say 30? they do sound similar and 30 would be more plausible
 

johnsmit

Active member
May 4, 2013
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i think you missunderstood something he said..
or he exspresed it wrong
I think there def is msny .13 yts olds having sex.. maybe even having it with guys that . are over 16.. which would amount to rape.... if payed. in some way .. yes it would be considered child prostitution...
Now where would they get those states ftom .. . there made up..!!!

But from talkinh to the girls that i saw nand know in this business
many at sex early in their teen.. with older guys.. and some were . doing dex for money.. drugs.
before sexteen. .So yes it was some .level of prostitution...
 
Mar 10, 2011
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And this Doctor also probably read and believes that if u run out of breath during sex , you should have your cock amputated or a heart transplant.....
Sure would not want him as my doctor !!!
 

papillion

Active member
Jan 31, 2006
703
69
28
BC
So I was having a beer with old friends the other day, and they happened to bring out a friend of theirs that was an off duty doctor. He brought up the recent SC ruling, saying that he supported it for the harm reduction it represents. He THEN proceeded to inform me that the medical statistics regarding the *average* age of "working girls" in BC is 13.

WTF?

Now... is this correct, or are the medical statistics grossly out of whack? If they are, there needs to be some serious re education going on. *If* they are correct, we need to do some serious clean up in this industry.

So what's the goods? I'm more than a little disturbed by this information, and only slightly less disturbed if it's false and that they have very inaccurate data. According to him, it's based on the working "girls" that show up at hospital or to clinics... that was what he said when I called him on what seemed like magic numbers.
I've learned a long time ago that information gained over a few beers in a Pub amounts to hearsay, fabrications, gossip\rumours.
 
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vancity_cowboy

hard riding member
Jan 27, 2008
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on yer ignore list
no less an expert on the human condition that mark twain once said, 'there's three kinds of lies in this world - lies, damned lies and statistics...'
 

huggzy

Banned
May 30, 2010
616
3
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So I was having a beer with old friends the other day, and they happened to bring out a friend of theirs that was an off duty doctor. He brought up the recent SC ruling, saying that he supported it for the harm reduction it represents. He THEN proceeded to inform me that the medical statistics regarding the *average* age of "working girls" in BC is 13.

WTF?

Now... is this correct, or are the medical statistics grossly out of whack? If they are, there needs to be some serious re education going on. *If* they are correct, we need to do some serious clean up in this industry.

So what's the goods? I'm more than a little disturbed by this information, and only slightly less disturbed if it's false and that they have very inaccurate data. According to him, it's based on the working "girls" that show up at hospital or to clinics... that was what he said when I called him on what seemed like magic numbers.
Well, if the "average age of working girls is 13", then that would mean that for every 40 year old working in the industry, then you're going to need five 8 year olds plus one 11 year old to pull that average back down to 13 years of age. For every 30 year old you have working, you would need six 10 year olds to offset it. For every 19 year old (which is VERY young in this industry) you would need six 12 year olds to bring the average age down to 13.

Uhhhh...yeah, right.

I've been shocked to hear in the past how low the average age that a female FIRST engages in sexual activity - and it seems to me that many females may have their first encounters in their early teen years. But the idea that pre-teens are either walking the streets, advertising online, or being pimped out at 13 years old AS A STARTING AGE strikes me as being an extremely rare occurrence (although I'm sure that in this sick world it obviously happens). However, I know that if I ever saw this occur knowing that a girl was underage I would be the first to not just report it, but I'd also grab that girl and take her to the first police station I came across - and I know that there are many guys in here that would do the same. In all my years I have yet to come across a girl who was anywhere close to being THAT young - never mind that being their average starting age. Mathematically 13 can't possibly be the average age of a working girl.

Not only that, any experienced pooner who has ever had a session with a 20 year old (give or take) KNOWS that without exception it is clear that at that age virtually all girls are incredibly inexperienced in the industry - and certainly NEVER carry themselves in such a way demonstrating that they've already had 7 years of experience by the time that they've reached that age.

Apparently your doctor friend fails at both math and common sense, or else there must be entire cities full of hundreds of thousands of school children being slaved off to the sex industry here in Canada that none of us are aware of. This claim is so ridiculous and lacking in common sense I wonder if this guy should have his license revoked.
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,131
44
48
Montréal
The exact same nonsense/tactic is used everywhere, not just in BC.

It's been debunked many times..over and over...yet it it still gets repeated and the average person hearing it assumes it's true. It's not.



Ontario court decision pours cold water on claim that average age of entry into prostitution is 14


Every once in a while, a journalist will claim that the average age of entry into prostitution is 14.

It's an effective argument for prohibitionists, who would like to ban men from purchasing sex.

However, an Ontario Superior Court decision last month should make people question that assertion the next time it appears in print.

In a constitutional challenge against Canada's prostitution laws, Justice Susan Himel poured cold water over an expert witness's suggestion that the average sex worker begins plying her trade at the age of 14.

Himel's ruling questioned the testimony of University of Ottawa sociology and anthropology professor Richard Poulin.

"His research has focused on prostitution, human trafficking, pornography, and the dynamics of the global sex trade, with a particular focus on minors," Himel wrote, adding that Poulin supports the abolition of prostitution based on his research.

"As well, during cross-examination, it was revealed that some of Dr. Poulin’s citations for his claim that the average age of recruitment into prostitution is 14 years old were misleading or incorrect," the judge noted.

Poulin also swore in an affidavit that serial killers have targeted prostitutes working at indoor sites. Himel, however, stated in her ruling that "his sources do not appear to support his assertion."

"I found it troubling that Dr. Poulin stated during cross-examination that it is not important for scholars to present information that contradicts their own findings (or findings which they support)," Himel added.

Poulin's affidavit also claimed that "physical and sexual violence in prostitution is substantial, regardless of the legal regime in place". Under cross-examination, he "defined violence as meaning a systemic power imbalance", Himel commented in her ruling.

Without naming names, Himel also wrote: "I find that some of the evidence tendered on this application did not meet the standards set by Canadian courts for the admission of expert evidence. The parties did not challenge the admissibility of evidence tendered but asked the court to afford little weight to the evidence of the other party."

In a recent e-mail to the Vancouver Sun, Simon Fraser University criminology researcher John Lowman pointed out that the Crown's factum in the case cited only one Canadian study indicating that the average age of entry might be as low as 14 years of age.

Lowman, who has studied the consequences of Canada's prostitution laws for decades, noted that this paper by Sue McIntyre "used a purposive sampling strategy that sought to include only persons who entered prostitution as children or youth".

As a result of this methodology, Lowman maintained that it couldn't be generalized to the entire field of prostitution. He also stated in his e-mail that other Canadian studies have reported higher ages of entry.

http://www.straight.com/news/ontari...water-claim-average-age-entry-prostitution-14




If you're interested in reading more about this, I recommend reading one or more of these:


http://eminism.org/blog/entry/62

http://lastradainternational.org/lsidocs/prostitution mythology 2010 (2).pdf

http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2011/11/27/the-law-of-averages/

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/mar/13/comic-relief-prostitution-claims-off-donating
 
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bcneil

I am from BC
Aug 24, 2007
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Anytime you hear this line of BS about the average age being 13, ask the idiot this........If 13 is the average, what was the median. Since they have a source of data that an average was taken from, the same source of data will have a median.

Now we all know there are actual ladies that start later than 13. For every girl that starts at 23, there needs to be 10 twelve year olds to keep the average at 13. There really isn't a similar effect in the opposite direction.
Therefore the median would be lower than the average. As we know that it isn't really rare for girls to start in their 20s 30s 40s even older. Then Id estimate to maintain a 13 average, the median would be under 10 easily. Which takes an absurd argument and takes it a step further.
 

vancity_cowboy

hard riding member
Jan 27, 2008
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on yer ignore list
well said hugzy and bcneil... now why didn't i think of that? :thumb:
 

CJ Tylers

Retired Sr. Member
Jan 3, 2003
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I assumed that the numbers were skewed or incorrect, but his assertion is that they were collected from actual medical visits. The troubling aspect of this is that it's still being taught as a fact in medical school...and that even middle to senior level medical practitioners put faith in it.

Whether or not there was something strange going on was what I wondered about, since I found it shocking and quite inconceivable that it was correct and verifiable data. I kept my mind open to the possibility of there being some truth to it, only because I've been burned by the "Ass of U and Me" clause in the past. It is deeply disturbing that they would continue to propagate entirely falsified data upon the medical community and, in general, the public.

The abolitionists, well, I could care less about them...other than their drive only causes harm to others already in marginalized positions.
 

screwtape1963

Member
Sep 17, 2004
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I assumed that the numbers were skewed or incorrect, but his assertion is that they were collected from actual medical visits. The troubling aspect of this is that it's still being taught as a fact in medical school...and that even middle to senior level medical practitioners put faith in it.

Whether or not there was something strange going on was what I wondered about, since I found it shocking and quite inconceivable that it was correct and verifiable data. I kept my mind open to the possibility of there being some truth to it, only because I've been burned by the "Ass of U and Me" clause in the past. It is deeply disturbing that they would continue to propagate entirely falsified data upon the medical community and, in general, the public.

The abolitionists, well, I could care less about them...other than their drive only causes harm to others already in marginalized positions.
Those figures might well be correct -- for figures gathered from actual medical visits.

However, to understand the true meaning of those figures and be able to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion from them, one must first ask four further absolutely crucial questions about those "actual medical visits":

1. To what type of medical facilities were these visits made;
2. For what purpose were they made;
3. At whose instigation were they made; and
4. Exactly how many individuals made them.

I can tell you right now what the answer to these questions is NOT: The visits were made to their own personally selected private gynecologists' offices by legally adult women for the purpose of having routine physical checkups.

My personal well-founded belief is that NONE of the information that that so-called "statistic" is based upon was gathered from a statistical survey of the regular patients of private gynecologists, for the simple reason that any gynecologist asked to reveal such details about her (or his) patients' private lives as the number of sex workers she saw and the age they had started being SPs (assuming that that information would even be in the gynecologist's patient history in the first place), would almost certainly tell the surveyor to take his survey and stick it sideways in a suitable orifice.

What that kind of "statistic" smacks of instead is the sort of "public health" survey statistic that can be gleaned from records of hospital ER visits.

And the problem with that, of course, is that it will be skewed by that very fact:

Question: In what kind of situation is a woman most likely to make a sex-related visit to a hospital emergency room?

Answer: After a rape, when she needs to get post-rape birth control and precautionary checks of any body fluids left behind by her attacker for possible STDs to start early treatment ... and the police need to get a Rape Kit done for their investigation.

Question: What kind of SP is most likely to be making an ER "sexual assault visit, and at whose instigation?

Answer: An underage hooker brought in involuntarily by the police and/or Social Services to have a mandatory check-up and to get a Rape Kit done to see if any of her customers (who would all be guilty of statutory rape) could be identified.

And I would also bet that the total number of individuals involved in the development of this "statistic" was in the hundreds at most -- while the total number of SPs of all kinds in Canada is likely in the thousands.
 

susi

Sassy Strumpette
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Jun 27, 2008
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@the Meat Market!!!lol
so these are the mellissa farely stats brought up over and over. the sample group were a group of at risk youth between the ages of 11 and 17. so, while the stat is hoisted as the truth and as the average age of entry into prostitution, it is actually the average age of a group of at risk youth...

the mis information of the abolitionists was thrown out of the scc case because it did not qualify as reliable/ethical data in a canadian court of law.

the abolitionists will continue to promote this myth as fact in their push for the nordic model. we really need to try to find a way to counter this. again, it takes alot of time and effort. there are some of us working on it but its a huge task.

love susie
 

CJ Tylers

Retired Sr. Member
Jan 3, 2003
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Thanks Susi, that's the sort of informed response I was hoping for. So, how is it that the medical community has managed to maintain this data as being wholly reflective of the community, when it's merely a representation of the at risk youth? The actual medical establishment should be reproached on teaching this to its students, as well as perpetuating it through the various peers.
 

papillion

Active member
Jan 31, 2006
703
69
28
BC
so these are the mellissa farely stats brought up over and over. the sample group were a group of at risk youth between the ages of 11 and 17. so, while the stat is hoisted as the truth and as the average age of entry into prostitution, it is actually the average age of a group of at risk youth...

the mis information of the abolitionists was thrown out of the scc case because it did not qualify as reliable/ethical data in a canadian court of law.

the abolitionists will continue to promote this myth as fact in their push for the nordic model. we really need to try to find a way to counter this. again, it takes alot of time and effort. there are some of us working on it but its a huge task.

love susie
Thank you Susi
Best way to counter "Liars for hire" is spreading the facts, keep up the good work
 
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