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Western Separation

The West Should Secede from Canada.

  • I Agree

    Votes: 22 46.8%
  • I could care less

    Votes: 2 4.3%
  • I disagree

    Votes: 23 48.9%

  • Total voters
    47
I have been doing soe reading an cmae across this statement:

"British Columbia's concerns must be those of its own people, they will only be realized when total control of their future rests in their hands. BC has the brains, we have the resources; the only question is, have we the courage, the vision, and the willpower to stand up for ourselves and go it alone?"
Link to Article
a few more articles

this looks like an interesting read http://www.bcquits.com/

a few more interesting links: http://www.separationalberta.com/linktous.asp


After doing some reading I think that I have to agree with the separatists

What do you think?
 
AsianBrother said:
Ah, another Toronto-ite stirring up the shit in lotus land... typical.
Toronto-ite?
... the correct term would be "Torontonian" however it is not correct as I have never lived in Toronto.


Trying to stir up shit??

I just asked for some opinions after I had done some reading and it seemed that western Canada is not getting a fair return on the money it pays to be an "equal" partner in Confederation as well as the fact that it really has no say in how the country is run as elections are usually decided after the votes are counted in Southern Ontario and the federal government just worries about buying votes to get re-elected by appeasing those in Ontario and Quebec (for example: gun control)
 
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rickoshadows

Just another member!
May 11, 2002
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Having been around the world and seeing many places a tourist wouldn't normally see. All I can say is that we have the best country in the world. Even the major political scandals in the news now would be small potatos in most of the world. Those of you who have a problem with Canada should leave it for a while. When you get back, you wil kiss the ground you walk on.


Now having said that, the government of the day has done some rather un-Canadian things and perhaps the populace will finally wake up and start paying more attention to them.

Did you know, if an election was held today, the NDP have have a very good chance of being the balance of power with the Liberals with Conservatives and Block forming the oposition? Be afraid, very afraid.

rickoshadows
 

Kev

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May 14, 2002
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Canada remains strong with the Maritimes to B.C. and all provinces and Territories in between. Anything less would be Canada's downfall. Countries looking at investing in Canada would shy away for fear that Canada would self destruct.

AB what the hell you jumping on WiYd for asking a question? --- Kev
 

Makhno

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Nov 11, 2003
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Grendleaxe said:
Hey, this Albertan is in favour of gun control, most of the albertans I know are infavour of gun control. We aren't in favour of a inefficient waste of money but don't let the few right wing nutters spin that into a "gun culture"
Well this Albertan is not in favour of the gun control registry that has been foisted upon us. Don't get me wrong. I don't own a gun and never have. In fact I've never even fired one. But I don't believe for a minute that we are going to catch a single criminal due to our gun registry. But we'll know where all the duck hunters live.

And at $2 BILLION, what a steal!! There are lots of IT professionals on this board. Guys, does it cost $2 Billion to put together a database, even one on the scale of the gun registry?
 

Makhno

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Nov 11, 2003
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likesdeladies said:
Have there been inefficiencies? Of course, but, oh sure --- just perpetuate the Makhno quoted $2B figure – like why bother to check where that number comes from or what, even accepting the number, it’s reference timeframe is.
This is from CBC News a week ago.
A billion here, a billion there--soon we're talking real money........
____________________________________
Gun registry cost soars to $2 billion
Last Updated Fri Feb 13 23:02:56 2004
MONTREAL-- Canada's controversial gun registry is costing taxpayers far more than previously reported, CBC News has learned.

Nearly $2 billion has either been spent on or committed to the federal program since it was introduced in the mid-1990s, according to documents obtained by Zone Libre of CBC's French news service.

The figure is roughly twice as much as an official government estimate that caused an uproar across the country.

The gun registry was originally supposed to cost less than $2 million. In December 2002, Auditor General Sheila Fraser revealed that the program would run up bills of at least $1 billion by 2005.

But the calculations remained incomplete, so CBC News obtained documents through the Access to Information Act and crunched the numbers.

A large part of the $2 billion expense is a computer system that's supposed to track registered guns, according to one document. Officials initially estimated it would cost about $1 million. Expenses now hover close to $750 million and the electronic system is still not fully operational.

Other errors and unforeseen expenses include $8 million in refunds to people who registered their guns, and millions more in legal fees that mounted during court challenges.

A spokesperson for the Coalition for Gun Control disputed Zone Libre's calculations, calling the $2 billion figure inaccurate.

The auditor general has pledged to re-examine the gun registry to come up with an updated assessment. Last month, Prime Minister Paul Martin rejected calls to scrap the program. But he said the government intends to review the way it's being run and is prepared to make changes.
 

Sleepy

New member
Dec 25, 2002
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I think western separation was more talked about years ago. Nowadays people just seem to grumble about not getting fair treatment, but seem resigned to it. All the voting power is back east.
 

Makhno

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Nov 11, 2003
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likesdeladies said:
Wendy Cukier, president of the Coalition for Gun Control, dismissed the $2-billion price tag as "totally misleading."
Like it really matters whether the tab is $1 billion or $2 billon. The truth, as is often the case, will likely lie somewhere in between. We lose either way. We've created a monstrous sinkhole which will continue consuming tax dollars at a feverish pace for years to come, and will have minimal impact on keeping our streets safe.

If we really want to keep our streets safe, let just ban handguns altogether. What purpose do handguns serve other than to kill other human beings?

(Canadian gun registry: throw your money in here.)
 

sirlickheralot

Gold Member
Mar 11, 2003
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Ultimately I don't think separtation would be good for either Canada or the western provinces. I don't think the separatist movement will ever gain enough support to succeed but I don't think the separtists are all a bunch of wing-nuts either. They have valid reasons for feeling alienated and angry towards central Canada and their movement is just a way of expressing their dissatisfaction. We are constantly under-represented in the federal government and we are usually on the short end of the stick when it comes to getting funding from Ottawa. Although I wouldn't want it to succeed, a referendum in B.C. and Alberta on separation would be a real slap in the face to Ottawa and perhaps it would wake up the centralist politicians.
 

Makhno

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vancouverman said:
It is not the GUN that kills .. it is the PERSON who pulls the trigger.

Or maybe we should forbid cars .. so many accidents .. people die too … and planes …. Ohhhh they are dangerous too ..
True enough. There is no easy fix here. Man is inventive, and has shown he can kill in many ways other than with guns.

The difference, however, beteen cars, planes and guns is that cars and planes were designed for transportation. They kill as a byproduct of negligent use. Guns, on the other hand, were designed to kill. They kill as a fulfillment of that design.....
 

P.B.

Senior Member
May 11, 2002
196
1
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WTF?

Just because a country isn't perfect, doesn't mean we should blow it into pieces. We should work on improving what we already have. And like some suggest, we have it pretty darn good already.

Freddy, in any project there are always unforseen pitfalls, overruns, and oversights. I don't feel your estimates would encompass all expenses. The main issue is they wasted a whole pile of tax payers dollars, in an unaccountable way, on a registry that has been proven to be ineffective. And to top it off, they spread propaganda about how it is good for us. This is what really fries me. Not only do they lie to our face about wasting our taxes, they do so using propaganda tactics at our expense! Regarding your idea of using federal inmates to do data entry... The last thing we need is a bunch of hardcore criminals to assemble a list of where they can access firearms! :eek: I don't feel that's a good idea.

Likesdeladies, are you bankrolled by the federal government to spread their propaganda? Or are you just trolling? I noticed you quoting the Canadian Firearms Center and Wendy Cukier, president of the Coalition for Gun Control. Of course they all have only glaringly positive things to say about the registry, it serves them to do so!

Makhno, banning anything only serves to enlarge a blackmarket. Narcotics are banned, yet they seem to be flourishing now more so than ever before. Prohibition was tried. Why didn't the liquor stop flowing? Guns were designed to propel projectiles, automobile to propel themselves, knives to cut, and bats to whack. What anything is designed to do has no bearing on what someone will do with it. I feel the design is an irrelevant issue here. Find a solution to end the problem, violence, not it's symptoms. If you only want to perceive the negative side of things, then you will only see that. There are many positive things that have come from firearms. Many choose not to see them.

So how did a poll about western separation turn to the subject of the firearms registry? This should be in a thread of it's own.
 

Makhno

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Nov 11, 2003
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likesdeladies said:
PB, your concern about the gun registry topic within this thread --- threads spin off into many directions – seems to me many of the wing nuts touting Western separation have a bug up their asses over the gun registry --- the topic fit’s well in this thread.
For the record, I am not in favour of separation. Having said that, I think that we have not been effectively represented at the national level for some time, but dividing the country into smaller fiefdoms is probably not the answer.
 

P.B.

Senior Member
May 11, 2002
196
1
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likes, yes there is a HUGE bug up the asses of all Canadian taxpayers. And right now, it`s called the Canadian Firearms Registry. Rather than offering up sources for discussion solely from one point of view, why not put out your independent thoughts?

Trolling is going out to intentionally to stir up shit. Fitting that you would mention bugs up the ass.

Instead of blindly believing everything you find stating what someone else said, why don’t you go out and talk directly to those in the know. Go talk to the rank and file peace officers, the ones who do the patrols and make the arrests, not their administrative associations, and find out what they really think. If you haven’t already figured out where I stand, give your head a shake. It’s blatantly obvious that I’m vehemently opposed to having our government lie to our faces about how great the ineffective and monstrously overrun registry is for us. You’re the only who has expressed the feeling of being “railed”. Or do you speak on others behalf? Support for the registry does NOT equate to support for peace officers. I feel you are trying to obfuscate the issue.

Propaganda is best defined as “Say it often, say it loud, say it many times”. The desired effect is that people who hear it enough will blindly believe in it. The government cannot justify the registry, yet it repeatedly puts out messages about how great it is for us. They use anonymous and speculative testimonials as evidence to support their claims. Hitler would be proud.

I’ll post my other comments under the poll thread, the proper place for this. Please go to https://perb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=9492 to read it.
 

P.B.

Senior Member
May 11, 2002
196
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Grendleaxe said:
Hey, this Albertan is in favour of gun control, most of the albertans I know are infavour of gun control. We aren't in favour of a inefficient waste of money but don't let the few right wing nutters spin that into a "gun culture"
Grendleaxe, I agree with you that we need effective and efficient controls. I'm curious as to what you meant by "gun culture". I feel that Canada does have a rich gun culture and heritage. It started way back when the British fought the French, then the British colony fought the Americans. People went westward to stake out the new frontier. They claimed land, started farming, and used firearms to hunt and protect themselves. Canada later produced firearms to contribute to the great war (WW1) and the second world war. Today, we have millions of firearm owners, probably over a quater of the population. They hunt, trade and collect firearms, and shoot targets. We even have a national shooting team that competes at the Olympics! So to me, Canada DOES have a gun culture.
 
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Makhno

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Amen, Hifi. I'm as livid as you are, particularly as we grind down to April 30 and our latest offering to the Ottawa profligates. However, I think the Liberals are counting on the all too fleeting memory of the average voter to pull them through again.

Do I detect a pining for a California style recall power in your post? (Perhaps a subject for a future thread)
 

mbhkey

Banned
Feb 17, 2004
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It seems as though we are split in half. This can probably be attributed to the number of BC posters.
 

Makhno

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hifisex said:
I can't/won't speak for anyone else....however equalization payments is just one example on how Alberta as a "have province" is getting the short end of the democratic stick in Canada:HFS
The last figures I've seen on Alberta's contribution to confederation were, to say the least, mindboggling. Acording to Robert Mansell (a Professor of Economics and dean of Graduate Studies at the University of Calgary who has studied and charted transfer payments to and from Ottawa), Alberta contributed $165 billion more to Ottawa than it received over the 30 years prior to 1994. That nearly matches the extra benefit Quebec has received from Ottawa during that same period.

Yes. $165 BILLION more than it received. I'm pretty sure that this trend has continued since 1994.

And you wonder why Albertans are pissed off at Ottawa dumping money by the truckload into Quebec advertising agencies pockets?

 

Makhno

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likesdeladies said:
Oh ya, 1994 referenced data – that’s real “hard data” as you say --- but Makhno’s “pretty sure” the trend has continued since 1994.
The reason I'm "pretty sure " this trend has continued is that since 1994 Alberta has pretty well had budget surpluses every year and under those circumstances they will not be a net recipient from the federal treasury but a net contributor. I did come across some figures for 2002. In 2002, Albertans paid an estimated $23.5 billion to the federal government and got back an estimated $14.5 billion in government services. That’s a difference of $9.0 billion, or $2,890 per Albertan.

What galls Albertans most is not that we are contributors (if we are a "have" province we can afford to share), but that we have so little effective say in how that money is spent. Or more often "wasted" as we have seen time and time again by successive Ottawa governments regardless of their stripe. We are regarded as a cow that can be milked as needed but otherwise put out to pasture when decisions are made.



This is the original "Milk Cow" cartoon, which has been prolific in many different versions throughout the history of Western Canada, since it first appeared in 1915. It demonstrates that the grievances of Western Canada are not new, but have existed as long as the West has been part of Canada.
 

wolverine

Hard Throbbing Member
Nov 12, 2002
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Post-secondary education is a provincial financial responsibility, not federal. The Quebec government seems to place a higher value on critically-thinking university education than Ralphie does.
 
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