The Porn Dude

The decline of the American Empire

noneasgood

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Jul 8, 2005
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I don't think many people give this issue serious attention, but has the potential to create havac on future interest rates, stock markets and on the housing market.

This is one of the best articles I've read on this topic.

It's almost like watching a freight train coming while someones on the tracks with their headphones on facing away from it. People are yelling at the guy but he's too absorbed in his own world..... until it's too late.

I had to cull the article due to posting limitations.

Experts Warn Debt May Threaten Economy
By ROBERT TANNER, AP ONLINE

You owe $145,000. And the bill is rising every day. That's how much it would cost every American man, woman and child to pay the tab for the long-term promises the U.S. government has made to creditors, retirees, veterans and the poor.

And it's not even taking into account credit card bills, mortgages - all the debt we've racked up personally. Savings? The average American puts away barely $1 of every $100 earned.

Our profligate ways at home are mirrored in Washington and in the global marketplace, where as a society America spends $1.9 billion more a day on imported clothes and cars and gadgets than the entire rest of the world spends on its goods and services.

A chorus of economists, government officials and elected leaders both conservative and liberal is warning that America's nonstop borrowing has put the nation on the road to a major fiscal disaster - one that could unleash plummeting home values, rocketing interest rates, lost jobs, stagnating wages and threats to government services ranging from health care to law enforcement.

David Walker, who audits the federal government's books as the U.S. comptroller general, put it starkly in an interview with the AP:

"I believe the country faces a critical crossroad and that the decisions that are made - or not made - within the next 10 years or so will have a profound effect on the future of our country, our children and our grandchildren. The problem gets bigger every day, and the tidal wave gets closer every day."

Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan echoed those worries just last week, warning that the federal budget deficit hampered the nation's ability to absorb possible shocks from the soaring trade deficit and the housing boom. He criticized the nation's "hesitancy to face up to the difficult choices that will be required to resolve our looming fiscal problems."

The epidemic of American indebtedness runs from home to government to global marketplace. To examine it, let's start at home.

Americans used to save, but no longer. Back in the 1950s, a generation of Americans who had survived the Depression and Second World War saved roughly 8 percent of their income. The savings rate rose and fell slightly over the decades - it went as high as 11 percent and as low as 7 percent during the "greed is good" 1980s - but now those days are only a memory.

In the charge-everything start of the new millennium, savings have plummeted: to just 1.8 percent last year, below 1 percent since January and at zero in the latest estimate from the Bureau of Economic Analysis.

The lack of savings is mirrored by a rise in debt. In 2000, household debt broke 18 percent of disposable income for the first time in 20 years, meaning debt eats almost $1 in every $5 American families have to spend after they get past the bills that keep them fed and housed. (That figure hasn't dropped. Credit card debt alone averages $7,200 per household.)

Many people take comfort in the rising value of their homes, and its spurred record home-building and buying, with new construction making places like Las Vegas the fastest-growing in the nation. But a home translates into wealth only when you sell it - and there's a vigorous debate over whether the housing boom is becoming a bubble that will burst.

A few years ago, government finances were the strongest they've been in a generation. Then came a turnaround - and a stunningly quick one. The budget surplus of $236 billion in 2000 turned into a deficit of $412 billion last year. The government had to borrow that much to cover the hole between what it took in and what it had to spend; a difference that's called the federal deficit.

Blame the bust of the dot-com boom, the ensuing recession, President Bush's federal tax cuts, the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and the subsequent wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

But bigger worries lie ahead.

The nation's three biggest entitlement programs - Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid - make promises for retirement and health care (for the elderly and the poor) which carry a huge price tag that balloons as the population grows and ages.

Add it up: current debt and deficit, promises for those big programs, pensions, veterans health care. The total comes to $43 trillion, says Walker, the nation's comptroller general, who runs the Government Accountability Office. That's where the $145,000 bill for every American, or $350,000 for every full-time worker, comes from.

Simply hoping for good times to return won't erase numbers like that, Walker says.

"There's no way we're going to grow our way out of our long-range fiscal imbalance," he says, adding that the country must re-examine tax policy, entitlement programs and the entire federal budget.

"I really do not believe the American people have a real idea as to where we are and where we're headed, and what the potential implications are for the country if we don't start making some tough decisions soon," he says.

The trade deficit - the difference between what America imports and what it exports - is the highest it's ever been, both in absolute numbers and in comparison to the size of the economy.

As a society, Americans are on track this year to spend $680 billion more on foreign goods such as Chinese-made clothes, Japanese-made cars and Scandinavian cell phones than overseas buyers do on American goods. The crush of arriving, Asian-made products recently spurred the Port of Los Angeles to switch to 24-hour operations.

Nearly two decades ago, the country fretted over a trade imbalance equal to 3.1 percent of the overall economy, or the gross domestic product. It's more than twice as big now, roughly 6.5 percent.

Here's how economists, from former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker to former Clinton Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin to analysts at the International Monetary Fund, explain the danger: Americans, who go into debt to keep living a life beyond their means, are spending more and more of that borrowed money to buy goods from overseas.

At the same time, the government provides more services to the public than it can afford to - and goes into debt to cover the cost.

Other nations actually purchase that debt, in the form of U.S. Treasury bonds and notes. Those bonds have increasingly been snapped up not just by private investors but by foreign banks. Japanese investors hold the most U.S. debt, but China has been buying more than any other country in recent months.

The biggest trade deficit is with China, too, at $162 billion. Japan is next, at $75 billion.

In a very real sense, the U.S. economy is dependent on the central banks of Japan, China and other nations to invest in U.S. Treasuries and keep American interest rates down. The low rates here keep American consumers buying imported goods.

But the lack of fiscal discipline in the United States is undermining the value of the American dollar, thereby lowering the value of the U.S. Treasuries in foreign banks. As the dollar's value drops, other nations' willingness to keep investing cannot last, says Nouriel Roubini, an economics professor at New York University.

If those banks reduced their dollar holdings or were simply less willing to invest so much, it could spark a sharp fall in the value of the dollar. And that could create a host of economic problems.

Economists and business leaders are closely watching China's decision last month to uncouple the value of its currency, the yuan, from the dollar and tie it instead to a basket of different currencies. The move could make the dollar's position less exposed to a quick shift by international investors - or it could spur those investors to look elsewhere and leave the United States' position more precarious.

In the end, Roubini, Walker and others say, disaster is still avoidable, but it's going to require the American people and the country's leaders to clean financial house - to reduce the federal deficit and the trade deficit. Global economics may drive some changes: if Japanese cars cost more, for example, Americans may buy less-expensive GMs.

If not, the future poses some frightening what-ifs:

What if the dollar plummets? Do stocks follow? How about pensions?

What if interest rates soar? How would all the new homeowners, who stretched to buy with adjustable and interest-only loans, cover their mortgages?

How would consumers with record credit-card debt make their payments? Would they stop buying? Stop taking vacations? What will happen if they go bankrupt? New rules going into effect later this year make it harder on such debtors.

How would government, which depends on the taxes of a strong economy to operate, keep all its promises?

Roubini says time is critical because the worse debt becomes, the more vulnerable America is to shocks in the global economic systems - another spike in oil prices, another major terrorist attack, another major military conflict.

"We're living beyond our means," Roubini says, "and we have to get our act together."
 

wilde

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With the biggest military budget in the world, what's the worry?
 

noneasgood

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Annalise Lane said:
disclaimer: I'm no expert or claim to be smart in any way shape or form :D

- I've heard that England used to be the international power house.

- The Canadian dollar use to have a higher value then the US.

- International economics is balanced by textiles, electronic, automotive, births of new borns verses deaths, and so on. Where by England was over taken by the US economy after the second world war. ( baby boom)... The American gov't is losing control of their exports because other countries are out bidding them on large profitable contracts.

This article just proves what I've heard, and read over the last 6 months. Within my lifetime a shift in world power is going to happen. I will be interesting to see how long it takes to unfold.
You got the point, but the bigger issue is how is it going to affect us individually during this transition and when is this likely to happen.

The deficit, specifically the external financing of it, has effectively taken interest rate policy out of Washington's hand and put the governments of China and Japan in control. If these two countries started selling U.S. dollars the US would have no option but to jack up rates. The result being mortage rates are likely to rise, house prices most likely to fall, stock markets probably down since interest rates tend to dampen them. In terms of application, it makes one think a 10 year mortgage right now would be a good idea. The one good thing is I don't think they have a particular desire to sell, but as the article says they just may stop buying.
 

noneasgood

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Jul 8, 2005
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No Cole's Notes..sorry

stryker said:
Way too phucking long,,,ya got the short version?
Couldn't find the Cole's Notes version..sorry. In fact the actual article contains about 20% more info..I had to pear it down cause apparently there's a 10,000 character post limit.

Admittedly this topic isn't for everyone, but I read The Economist, and have related degrees and I'm in the financial sector, so this is all of interest to me.
 

noneasgood

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Jul 8, 2005
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westwoody said:
Short version is everybody is blowing their money on Tommy Hilfiger crap instead of saving it.
All anybody cares about is having overpriced brand-name stuff. So they can feel better than the guy with a slighly smaller SUV.
That's part of it..the other part of it is that the US government is doing the same thing..and like private consumers, they too have to borrow.
 

wilde

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Jun 4, 2003
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noneasgood said:
If these two countries started selling U.S. dollars the US would have no option but to jack up rates.
Surely you meant selling U.S. treasury bills right? If they did, the US economy will begin a swift downward spiral. But so will the "wealth" that Japan and China have built up over the years. The bottom line is if the US economy goes, it will have a nasty domino effect.

The short version of this story: the US is buying all kinds of shit from all over the world more than the rest of world is buying shit from the US. Or the US is living beyond it's means. Or using the credit card analogy. The US is maxing out it's credit limit, but the rest of the world keeps increasing the credit limit.
 

dirtydan

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Oct 7, 2004
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Every great power

Sooner or later every great power falls and does so largely because of the vast amount of resources devoted to its military. This will eventually happen to the US, quicker if there are more Republican administrations following Bush.

Also, I don't know why there is so much griping amount the great amount of imports in the US. It is supposed to be the world's beacon of free enterprise and it is that very free enterprise which is directly responsible for all of those imports.

What is scary is that Canada's economy is so closely tied to the that of the US. I don't know about the rest of you but I think that within my life time there will be another Great Depression and likely worse than that of the 1930's. :eek:
 

noneasgood

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Jul 8, 2005
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wilde said:
Surely you meant selling U.S. treasury bills right? If they did, the US economy will begin a swift downward spiral. But so will the "wealth" that Japan and China have built up over the years. The bottom line is if the US economy goes, it will have a nasty domino effect.

The short version of this story: the US is buying all kinds of shit from all over the world more than the rest of world is buying shit from the US. Or the US is living beyond it's means. Or using the credit card analogy. The US is maxing out it's credit limit, but the rest of the world keeps increasing the credit limit.
That about sums it up, they are actually doing both, importing more than exporting and running a huge deficit. Add that to the fact that there's a bunch of impending bills heading their way as the baby boomers age and that's the condensed version of the story. Credit card is maxed and identifiable expenses are looming.

Nicely condensed.
 

wilde

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westwoody said:
I think it's called an "unfunded liability".
Or an "encumbrance" in government accounting speak.
 

The Lizard King

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What is scary is that Canada's economy is so closely tied to the that of the US. I don't know about the rest of you but I think that within my life time there will be another Great Depression and likely worse than that of the 1930's.
I dunno...I'm kinda thinking that Canada's economy is largely resource based at this point and becoming more so every day. That being said, the U.S. isn't the only country that is and will be in the market for these resources. Thier loss will be someone elses gain.
 

noneasgood

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Jul 8, 2005
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Annalise Lane said:
well in my humble opinion - the stock market is over inflated in the first place... seems everytime there is a stock market crash every 5 years or so just to recorrect the world economy. With the largest ajustments in the late 80's and one on the late 90's... oppp okay every ten years.... seems we are right on target for another... However this one might put the world power into the hands of another country instead of the American population.

I wonder if the Americans are taking note and doing their due diligence to protect themselves. If I was in the market for a mortage I would take it over 25 years just to secure the interest rate of 6% ( or something close to that)




disclaimer: I am an uneducated, non university female... and I am only speaking for 10% of what I have read or heard.
I enjoy your input very much. Keep it coming!
 

Osiris

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If Japan & China time it properly, the growing Chinese & Indian economies will be ravenously hungry for products at the time they flood the market with US t-bills & bonds. They won't be hurt a bit. Well, maybe only from laughing so hard.
 

The Lizard King

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QUOTE]If Japan & China time it properly, the growing Chinese & Indian economies will be ravenously hungry for products at the time they flood the market with US t-bills & bonds. They won't be hurt a bit. Well, maybe only from laughing so hard.[/QUOTE] Exactly!!
 

noneasgood

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greenvalley said:
this is one of the reasons the USA is in deep trouble.

Patriotic 9/11 pins are made in China
http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/dailystar/90549.php

I noticed people have said that taking out long mortages will protect you. That only protects you from interest rates rising, but if the value of the property drops the interest costs are the least of your worries.

Good point..but with real estate I've learned cash flow is the key. Real estate will definately flucuate and how do you in the first year will largely determine the outcome..but if you have sufficient cash flow you have control of when you want to get out. If you don't that key decision is being make for you.

Those who have owned real estate during this recent rise are unlikely to see all their gains disappear..a portion perhaps, maybe even a large portion but I'd be surprised if it all disappeared, that is unless they are forced to sell in a bad market. I provide advice in this area and it seem to me the best one can do is have a split mortgage where a portion of it is open at prime -1 and a portion of it is locked in at 4.35 over 5 years for example. Many mortgage brokers will argue the open is the best option, and historically they are right..but unfortunately history rarely repeats itself. It also depends on what the posted rate of the institution is and whether they can move off their posted rates when you lock in, which for most is significantly higher than 4.35. The arguement also assumes that you are paying off the mortgage as if it was fixed, ie paying in excess of the minimum.
 

noneasgood

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Jul 8, 2005
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Probably

Annalise Lane said:
thank you... but am I even right ?
I would say conceptually you're correct..but as far as I know there aren't any 25 year mortgages in Canada. 10 appears to be the max. But the idea of locking in long term is probably good. (it's all educated guessing) but there's a premium for locking in long term in the form of higher rates so it often depends on whether you have the cash flow to ride out bumps or not.
But those 10 year ING and PC rates look mighty attractive.

http://www.canadamortgage.com/RatesShow/ShowRates.cfm?CFID=5770288&CFTOKEN=67800768
 

Fudd

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Apr 30, 2004
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Getting into dept and not saving enough is typical of most people not just Americans.
 

dirtydan

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The Lizard King said:
I dunno...I'm kinda thinking that Canada's economy is largely resource based at this point and becoming more so every day. That being said, the U.S. isn't the only country that is and will be in the market for these resources. Thier loss will be someone elses gain.

Canada's economy is very dependent on natural resources. However something like 75-80% of Canada's international trade is with the US. Now Canada is the US biggest trading partner, but that's only around 3% of all its trade. One is very diverse while the other ain't much more than a colony economically speaking.
 
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