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Pickton trial

M

ma1234

Second degree murder.....

How cruel do you have to be and how many women do you have to torture, kill, feed to the pigs and bury in order to be found guilty of first degree murder?
 
M

ma1234

"second degree murder n. a non-premeditated killing, resulting from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility."

So, obviously it is possible to be a serial killer without premeditation. What a joke!
 
M

ma1234

He could be eligible for parole in 10 years, less what he spent in custody I guess.

He will be 68 years old, a free man and will be able to enjoy life.
 

IQof10

The One and Only
Feb 12, 2005
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He could be eligible for parole in 10 years, less what he spent in custody I guess.

He will be 68 years old, a free man and will be able to enjoy life.
The Judge would not let this happen, but the Jury should spend a few years in jail for stupidity.
 
M

ma1234

I don't like the jury system. Shrewd lawyers cherry-pick the most gullible simple-minded people.
 

Aerts

Member
Sep 18, 2007
397
4
18
The justice system here is just plain fucked.

The people who benefited from the trial:
-the media
-lawyers
-anyone working on the case

The losers:
-the families (didn't get the important 1st degree guily verdict)
-taxpayers (out 100's of millions of dollars... not to mention they paid for pickton's high priced defense lawyers)
-the women of the DTES (society at large still doesn't give a shit about them, there are probably still other robert picktons out there preying on them)
 

tedsweettangv

Active member
May 5, 2006
732
79
28
Vancouver
First degree would have meant he selected a specific person and planned to kill them. This is much harder to prove. It isn't that he targeted street walkers in general but a specific person. If the jury felt that whom he killed was opportunistic, he took who he could, meeting whatever twisted criteria he had, not that he passed over easier prey for the person he selected, they had to go 2nd degree.

Also it says he is ELIGIBLE for parole in 10 years. He won't get it. It is a life sentence, it isn't that the sentence is 10 years. I just hope the judge makes the sentences consecutive and not concurrent so we wouldn't even hear a parole trial for 60 years.
 
M

ma1234

Also it says he is ELIGIBLE for parole in 10 years. He won't get it. It is a life sentence, it isn't that the sentence is 10 years. I just hope the judge makes the sentences consecutive and not concurrent so we wouldn't even hear a parole trial for 60 years.
I hope also, but think of Karla Homolka....
 

uncleg

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2006
5,655
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I hope also, but think of Karla Homolka....
Has what to do with Pickton?

Nobody has said he is eligible for parole in ten years, just that he can be under a second degree murder conviction, which is not the case in a first degree conviction. The jury is being asked to determine sentencing and they can very well recommend no parole for twenty-five years, which is a life sentence, which is what everybody speculates he will get. Also, as a point they don't do consecutive on life sentences in Canada.

As to 1st versus 2nd degree, do you really think he was alone in this ? Look at the parade of characters, I suspect there was somebody else involved in some, if not all of them.
 
M

ma1234

As to 1st versus 2nd degree, do you really think he was alone in this ? Look at the parade of characters, I suspect there was somebody else involved in some, if not all of them.
I understand, but so what?

If I kill with an accomplice, does that make me less guilty?
 
M

ma1234

Other question: if other people were involved, when will they go on trial?

If they used this as an argument, they should prosecute the accomplices, right?
 

hunsperger

Banned
Mar 6, 2007
1,062
5
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Has what to do with Pickton?

Nobody has said he is eligible for parole in ten years, just that he can be under a second degree murder conviction, which is not the case in a first degree conviction. The jury is being asked to determine sentencing and they can very well recommend no parole for twenty-five years, which is a life sentence, which is what everybody speculates he will get. Also, as a point they don't do consecutive on life sentences in Canada.

As to 1st versus 2nd degree, do you really think he was alone in this ? Look at the parade of characters, I suspect there was somebody else involved in some, if not all of them.
uncleg...

i have a couple of questions...

will he be behind bars for the rest of his life...

will he now be tried for the murder of other women...

i have always been curious why they call 25 years a life sentence...

why don't they just call it what it is, 25 years...
 
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Krustee

Banned
Nov 9, 2007
1,567
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I know I'll regret weighing in on this but I'm a glutton for pain I guess.

"second degree murder n. a non-premeditated killing, resulting from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility."

So, obviously it is possible to be a serial killer without premeditation. What a joke!
Actually, if you look at the whole of the case against Robert Pickton you will see that he has not acted alone in this whole scheme & in all indictments leveled against him.
For this reason the First Degree Murder cannot be properly applied to Robert as there is the distinct possibility & in my opinion probability that he was coerced in his actions by individuals much more intelligent than he.
This would make him a stooge, a vile stooge but used just the same.

"Pickton's lawyers also repeatedly suggested someone other than Pickton could have been responsible for the deaths.
The farm was a hive of activity by unsavoury people, including three people who were arrested but never charged in the case.

Defence lawyers continually pointed their fingers in the direction of Pat Casanova and Dinah Taylor.

Pickton's brother Dave was never arrested by police, but the defence brought his name up often.
"

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gkg8V25rGmeO54JHxwfbPs4pAtvg

I don't like the jury system. Shrewd lawyers cherry-pick the most gullible simple-minded people.
This is simply NOT true.
IF you have been through a jury selection you would know that the defence & prosecution take thier selection seriously but the judge also reviews the candidates.
Jury selection in this process is the most scrupulous & unbiased you will find anywhere.

The justice system here is just plain fucked.

The people who benefited from the trial:
-the media
-lawyers
-anyone working on the case

The losers:
-the families (didn't get the important 1st degree guily verdict)
-taxpayers (out 100's of millions of dollars... not to mention they paid for pickton's high priced defense lawyers)
-the women of the DTES (society at large still doesn't give a shit about them, there are probably still other robert picktons out there preying on them)
I have to disagree, finding Pickton guilty of First Degree murder would have been nearly impossible.
The prosecution would have needed to prove he acted either alone or was the mastermind behind the murders neither of which I believe to be true.


Has what to do with Pickton?

Nobody has said he is eligible for parole in ten years, just that he can be under a second degree murder conviction, which is not the case in a first degree conviction. The jury is being asked to determine sentencing and they can very well recommend no parole for twenty-five years, which is a life sentence, which is what everybody speculates he will get. Also, as a point they don't do consecutive on life sentences in Canada.

As to 1st versus 2nd degree, do you really think he was alone in this ? Look at the parade of characters, I suspect there was somebody else involved in some, if not all of them.
Keep in mind that he was convicted only, the sentencing is yet to take place.
During sentencing the victim impact statements will be read of which weight will be added to the pressure for denying early parole.
 

Krustee

Banned
Nov 9, 2007
1,567
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Some more info:

Pickton 101
20 Questions


Neal Hall and Lori Culbert, Vancouver Sun
Published: Saturday, December 01, 2007

1. When was Pickton arrested?

Robert (Willie) Pickton was arrested Feb. 22, 2002, and initially charged with two counts of first-degree murder. As the 20-month search of his farm in Port Coquitlam continued, more charges were added. Pickton's arrest followed the creation of a Missing Women Task Force a year earlier, although the Vancouver police had been investigating for years the disappearances of dozens of women from the Downtown Eastside.

2. Why has the trial taken so long?

The forensic search of the crime scene -- the Pickton farm -- was unprecedented in Canadian policing history, lasting almost two years. Before the trial could begin, the Crown had a duty to disclose to the defence every document and shred of evidence gathered by police -- about 1.25 million documents were disclosed. Pickton's preliminary hearing began in 2002 and ended six months later, in July 2003, when he was ordered to stand trial on 15 counts of first-degree murder. More charges were added as the investigation and farm search continued. Part of 2005 and most of 2006 were spent in pretrial voir dires without the jury. The jury portion of the trial began last Jan. 22, but there were many days the jury didn't sit, including almost six weeks in late July and early August. The jury sat for 105 days hearing evidence.

3. Pickton was originally charged with 27 counts of first-degree murder. Why was it reduced to six?

Last year, one of the charges involving an unknown woman -- identified on the indictment simply as Jane Doe -- was stayed by the trial judge, who then decided in August 2006 that a single murder trial involving 26 counts of first-degree murder would overburden the jury. The judge divided the indictment into two trials -- one with six counts and another with 20 counts. The Crown elected to proceed first on the six-count trial, with the second trial to be held later. No date has been set for the second trial.

4. How many witnesses testified at Pickton's trial?

The trial heard from 128 witnesses -- 98 for the Crown and 30 for the defence. Some key witnesses were on the stand for more than a week.

5. How many exhibits were entered at the trial?

The Crown and defence entered 193 exhibits as evidence. Some are simple pieces of paper, others are multiple pages, multiple photographs and lengthy videos which if the jury chooses to play again, would take more than a day to watch.

6. Why can't the public hear about all the evidence considered at trial now that the jury is deliberating?

The judge made rulings on the admissibility of certain evidence in the absence of the jury, and because there is a pending second Pickton trial, the judge decided to impose a ban on publication of some evidence, which will remain in place so as not to prejudice the second trial.

7. How much were jurors paid during the Pickton trial?

In British Columbia, jurors are paid on a sliding scale by regulation under the Jury Act. They receive $20 a day for each of the first 10 days of the trial, $60 a day for the 11th to 49th days of trial, and $100 a day for the 50th and each subsequent day of trial.

8. How long will it take the jury to reach a verdict?

No one can predict how long jury deliberations will take. Some juries take minutes, others take days, depending on the complexity of the evidence and duration of the trial. Considering this has been an unusually long, complex case, the jury is expected to take some time to reach its verdict.

9. Can the jury ask the judge for help during deliberations?

Yes, the judge can provide assistance to the jury if he feels it is necessary, although the judge would first discuss the matter with the Crown and defence to get their views on what is appropriate. For example, if the jury wanted clarification on the law -- what constitutes reasonable doubt or the difference between first-degree murder and second-degree -- the judge could clarify those issues, even though he dealt with them in his final instructions to the jury.

10. What if the jury requests to hear a playback of specific testimony?

The judge will arrange to play the audio recording of both the direct exam and cross-examination relating to the area requested. This will occur in court.

11. What happens if the jurors cannot agree unanimously on a verdict?

It will result in a hung jury and the judge will declare a mistrial. The Crown and defence then would prepare for a retrial.

12. What happens if Pickton is found guilty?

If he is found guilty as charged of first-degree murder, the trial judge would immediately impose a mandatory life sentence without parole for 25 years. The jury, however, could return a guilty verdict on some counts and not others. The jury could also find Pickton guilty of the lesser included offence of second-degree murder. In that case, the judge would ask the jury to retire again to consider recommending whether the accused should serve more prison time than the mandatory 10-year minimum imposed under the Criminal Code. The judge is not bound by a jury recommendation. The judge said Friday the jury should find Pickton guilty of manslaughter if they can only conclude that he killed the victims. It jumps to second-degree murder if they find he meant to cause their deaths. And the jurors can determine it was first-degree murder if they conclude the act was planned and deliberate.

13. What happens if Pickton is found not guilty?

An acquittal will be entered by the court and Pickton can apply to be released on bail, although he still faces a second murder trial. He has been in custody more than five years.

14. Can either side appeal the verdict?

Yes. The Crown and Pickton have 30 days to file an appeal. The grounds for an appeal of a jury verdict have to be questions of law. The judge's rulings made in the jury's absence could also be grounds for appeal by the defence. If leave to appeal was granted, the second murder trial would likely await the outcome of the appeal process, since it could affect the retrial. Appeals sometimes take two years.

15. Will the same legal teams represent the accused and the prosecution at the second trial?

It is not known if the same defence and Crown teams will remain in place for a second trial. There were seven lawyers for the Crown, and at least 11 who have appeared for the defence. Also, the judge has his own lawyer, Christine Judd. The trial has caused personal hardship for some lawyers, especially those who do not live in Vancouver. One of the prosecutors, Derrill Prevett, lives on Vancouver Island, as does one of the defence lawyers, Adrian Brooks. They had to spend a lot of time away from their families.

16. How much is this trial costing taxpayers?

The total cost of the trial has not been tallied. But in 2003 the government said up to $76 million was set aside for the police investigation and another $4 million was budgeted for the trial. The total cost isn't expected to be made public until after the second trial, partly because the government does not want the jury at this trial -- and potential jurors who may sit at the second trial -- to feel undue pressure from the unprecedented cost of this case. If the allegations are proven in court, this will become the largest serial killer case in Canadian history.

17. Who is paying Pickton's legal bills?

Lead defence lawyer Peter Ritchie threatened to withdraw from the case during Pickton's preliminary hearing in 2003, if an adequate funding arrangement couldn't be reached for the defence legal team. Ritchie later announced he would continue as Pickton's lawyer. Although it was never specified, it is likely the defence negotiated a rate with the attorney-general's ministry that was satisfactory and above legal aid rates. The government has filed a lien against the Pickton farm to ensure repayment of legal fees from Robert Pickton's one-third share of the property.

18. What will happen to the Pickton farm?

The buildings were levelled during the police search and every cubic inch of soil was sifted for human remains. Although there has been discussion of establishing a permanent memorial for the missing women on the six-hectare (15-acre) property at 953 Dominion Ave., Coquitlam, it is owned by Pickton and his brother and sister, Dave Pickton and Linda Wright. The siblings inherited the property from their parents. They sold off about 10 hectares for residential development during the last decade.

Most of the property is classified as Class 1 residential, with small portions classified for light industry and farm use. The current assessed value is $6.3 million. A court document filed last year in a relation to the property suggested the current land classification would allow 4.16 hectares (10.3 acres) of the property to be subdivided as 40 single-family residential lots with another 1.9 hectares (4.7 acres) designated for 186 townhomes.

19. Will there be a public inquiry into the missing women case?

The provincial government has to decide whether to hold an inquiry under the Public Inquiry Act to investigate allegations that police mishandled the initial investigation and took too long to solve the case of the missing women, who began disappearing in the late 1970s. If an inquiry was ordered, it would be held after the criminal proceedings conclude.

20. There were 68 missing women listed that were investigated by police. Pickton is accused of killing 26. What about the rest?

The police investigation of the missing women continues. Police hope to be able to provide answers one day to all the families of the missing women.




Judge James Williams
http://missingwomen.blogspot.com/2007/01/pickton-trial-judge-noted-for-no.html
 
M

ma1234

"This is simply NOT true.
IF you have been through a jury selection you would know that the defence & prosecution take thier selection seriously but the judge also reviews the candidates.
Jury selection in this process is the most scrupulous & unbiased you will find anywhere.
"
Krustee, only one question.

How stupid is a person who can be made believe that a serial murder is not premeditated?
 

MissingOne

Don't just do something, sit there.
Jan 2, 2006
2,223
421
83
The Judge would not let this happen, but the Jury should spend a few years in jail for stupidity.
I like to think that these 12 citizens, who took a year out of their lives to consider this case, have acted in good faith and have reached the best verdict that our justice system allows, given the evidence that was presented to them.

All that time they spent in the jury box probably felt like imprisonment anyway. If there's a new trial for the other 20 charges, I'm hoping fervently that my name doesn't come up for jury duty.

As to Picton's punishment, let's see what it turns out to be, before getting all excited.
 

Krustee

Banned
Nov 9, 2007
1,567
11
0
Krustee, only one question.

How stupid is a person who can be made believe that a serial murder is not premeditated?
You would have to study law to fully understand the nuances behind the term "premeditated" which is a main differentiating factor between First Degree & Second Degree.

My previous statement made it clear that I believe Robert did not act alone AND that he was most likely coerced.

If even the possibility of coercion existed the jury cannot find him guilty of First degree murder.

Notice the paste I made of the Defence team?
They, by clearly presenting that information of accomplices, were ensuring the jury could not find First Degree "without a reasonable doubt".
 
M

ma1234

OK, if they can't prove he was the murderer, then why the second-degree conviction?

The difference between 1st and 2nd degree is NOT whether he acted alone, but the fact if it was premeditated or not.

I don't think I should study law to understand the word "premeditated".

Please explain it to me in a few words if you think I don't know.
 

uncleg

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2006
5,655
839
113
uncleg...

i have a couple of questions...

will he be behind bars for the rest of his life...

will he now be tried for the murder of other women...

i have always been curious why they call 25 years a life sentence...

why don't they just call it what it is, 25 years...
Probably.

Probably not.

It is a life sentence.

Chances are that he will be sentenced to life, no eligibility for parole for 25 years. Trying him for the murder of the other women would be symbolic only and I suggest not worth the money or time that has to be invested. Remember it is not only the professionals involved, all things being equal, you could be on that jury.

As to the 25 years/life sentence issue. It is a life sentence for real. The 25 years comes into play, in that, that is the earliest he would be eligible for parole ( 1st degree murder ) as opposed to 10 years, ( 2nd degree murder )if recommended by the jury/determined by the judge. The parole at 25 years is not automatic, just the parole hearing. The parole Board does not have to grant the parole. Remember Clifford Olsen, he's still inside. His 25 were up in 2005.
 
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