Freya Darling
E.D. Meds

Out of control

Groo39

Guest
Aug 21, 2003
123
0
0
SP wasteland: SK
After the recent flamage involving Girl97, and the unpleasant departure of Victoria Lee, I decided it was time to do some digging through the review archives.

Guys, this site is a mess. The sheer volume of misogynistic posts, flamage, shill-screaming, useless reviews, accusations against the SPs, etc. is sickening.

The fact that Howie Meeker is still on this board after apparently trying to stalk an SP is not only shameful, but a disgustingly willful acceptance of a potentially dangerous situation. I don't deny that G97 seemed to fan the flames, but that doesn't get around the fact that this guy was essentially threatening an SP.

The moderators here are essentially invisible, never publicly warning the offenders, and never leaving any trail if they're deleting offensive threads or posts. As a result, the juvenile antics continue unchecked and unflagged.

The disrespect to the SPs in some of the reviews borders on abuse. Certainly it's a "style" that would get the poster's face slapped or worse if they were to speak to the SPs that way in person.

I've seen no alternative but to flag the problems to the TERB mods, in hopes that they will work with Fred and the PERB mods to come up with some changes to address the state of this board. Quite frankly, I would not be surprised if they opt to just shut the site down.

It's high time many of you grew past the mental age of 14. It's a shame that the decent members and SPs who remain here despite the abuse might end up losing this potentially valuable resource because of the childish antics of a few adolescent-minded fools.
 

Groo39

Guest
Aug 21, 2003
123
0
0
SP wasteland: SK
vancouverman said:
some kind of censorship has to exist ..... but who are we to be gods of censorship...
We are the community -- all of us. As long as we keep quiet about the rampant rude and nasty behavior and comments by the few, we are all responsible for the mess.

It took a fair bit of reading and thinking, but G97 is right -- we've let the trash take over, and it's as much our fault for accepting it as "their style" as the posters themselves.

So for those who don't like my comments and censorship, tough shit. I'm done keeping quiet while the boneheads ruin the potential of this site.
 

dittman

New member
Jan 22, 2003
730
0
0
71
seattle
vanilla is boring as the board is going. I dont and didnt question fredzs ability to be a moderator, and yes he has the ability to censor but in his infinite wisdom he doesnt or if he does it isnt with a heavy hand.. My only response is so what if no sps participate on the board oh well, will we be anyless of the pooners if they dont, I dont think so. And who is going to decide the potential of the board, you groo39, well i damn sure hope not.
 

Groo39

Guest
Aug 21, 2003
123
0
0
SP wasteland: SK
Erikrauda and FranklyHuge have hit the issue squarely on the head -- it's not arguments or even the occasional brief flame-fest that is ruining the board. It's those who "gang up" to harass others, the threats, and the utter lack of respect for others that is a problem.

Even Sonny's cursing isn't an issue in my books, though many might take it personally at first. Some of the "locker room" feel reviews aren't out of line either, but others emulate that style and don't seem to know when they're crossing the line from tongue-in-cheek/questionable style and getting into the rude and derogatory; even the originator of the "style" has a tendancy to cross that line for bad reviews.

Flames that stick to the original thread can be ignored, but some of the participants start chasing each other from thread to thread, polluting the whole board, and sometimes clogging it with multiple threads. The fact that someone feels they're "losing" a flame fest is poor justification for taking it elsewhere on the board in hopes of garnering support.

The very mentality that one needs to gather support to "win" an arugment is itself wrong-minded. People will disagree, but it shouldn't be turning into "us vs. them" gang-flames.

As to shutting it down, I don't know if that will happen, but I wouldn't blame Fred for just killing the site if it can't be cleaned up. In business, it's cutting your losses. Do you think Fred wants any of his boards to garner the kind of reputation some of the others have? Do you get the impression anywhere that he wants to offend providers who aren't ripping off clients?
 

sirlickheralot

Gold Member
Mar 11, 2003
1,267
0
0
115
Vancouver
I keep hearing this accusation that Howie has made threats to OB but nobody seems to want to provide proof. Like I said before I may have missed some threads. Groo39 if you have links to these threats provide them I would be interested in seeing them.
 

Groo39

Guest
Aug 21, 2003
123
0
0
SP wasteland: SK
Change?

I've gotten some interesting PMs from people who wonder if I'm targetting them specifically, if I'd be interested in becoming a mod, etc. I thought it worthwhile to remind people of an old adage: "If in doubt, don't!"

If you find yourself uncertain whether you might be one of the posters to blame for the state of the board, maybe it's time to reassess whether your posts are matching your intent. Think about how a complete stranger would react if you told them the same thing face-to-face, and whether you'd actually talk to people the way you post.

Maybe you need to change your style, maybe you need a cooling off period before you post a reply, or maybe you're just realizing for the first time that others notice the behavior of fellow posters. Even if you're the worst flame-thrower on the board, it doesn't mean you can't change your style instead of leaving.

Adults accept that sometimes they're in the wrong and try to make changes or amends; children run away in an indignant huff.
 

Groo39

Guest
Aug 21, 2003
123
0
0
SP wasteland: SK
sirlickheralot said:
I keep hearing this accusation that Howie has made threats to OB but nobody seems to want to provide proof. Like I said before I may have missed some threads. Groo39 if you have links to these threats provide them I would be interested in seeing them.
Most of those threads are gone -- either G97, HM, or the mods deleted them. At their peak, HM was posting as a lunatic-fringe stalker. G97's posting style and narcissism fanned the flamage, but that doesn't alter the fact that HM was way, way out of line.

Before I stopped reading those threads, things were so far out of hand that I fully expected LE to be involved in stalker charges. I certainly didn't expect HM's account would be active more than a day or two longer!

Under no circumstances should anyone have to tolerate threats of having their personal address info publicised, nor deal with veiled threats of "I know where you live." This isn't a movie, but an industry where both SPs and clients have to periodically deal with genuine nutjobs who should be locked up. Or did you think the occasional reports of SPs being assaulted, stabbed, or killed were being made up by the news media?
 

sirlickheralot

Gold Member
Mar 11, 2003
1,267
0
0
115
Vancouver
Were you even watching the board when this altercation went down or are you relying on second hand information. I remember the thread in question, the one started by Bigdman as a positive review. The only remark HM made that could be construed as a threat was when OB kept asking for proof that he had seen her, he said something to the effect "what do you want me to do tell people where you live." Granted this line may be out of line but it isn't exactly serious enough to be banned for. As far as I know he never revealed any personal info about OB on the board(or he probably would have been banned) or even on the back channels.

I have no idea if HM has made any threats to OB via PM, E-Mail, or phone but if he has she should provide some solid proof. If she has proof then I agree he should be banned, but we can't crucify HM based only on another members word.
 
Last edited:

Groo39

Guest
Aug 21, 2003
123
0
0
SP wasteland: SK
sirlickheralot said:
Were you even watching the board when this altercation went down or are you relying on second hand information.
Yes, I followed those threads for about 2-3 days. As I said, G97 fanned the flames, but that does not alter HM's responsibility for his posts -- and there were several in those threads, though only a couple were clearly over the line.

If it was a genuine error in phrasing, he could always come back with another account and behave this time. Allowing the existing account to continue downplays the seriousness of the implied threats.

On a related note, if G97 were to continue with her flamage (if she ever returns), she should be booted as well. She may not have lit the fire, but she sure made no attempt to maintain her cool and deal with the issue rationally. SPs have as much responsibility to behave themselves as the regular membership does.

I think it was Aphrodite @ AAA from the GTA who'd mentioned viewing TERB as a place she felt comfortable "hanging out" and talking about work and other issues. There are very few places one can openly and honestly discuss issues related to the industry, and the SP and provider viewpoints are every bit as important as the clients'.
 

dittman

New member
Jan 22, 2003
730
0
0
71
seattle
i remember those threads and yes g97 fanned the flames, but as far as I can recollect not one did hm threated her nor as far as i was concerned do anything that went over the line.
 

Fatman15

New member
Mar 25, 2003
92
0
0
Under the Georgia Viaduct
I concur with dittman. From what I remember of that thread was that it went on about a hundred posts longer than it should have. G97/OB in her posts on various threads is all over the place. Should either be banned?

No. Although reading some of the posts one had to shake their head, I felt it was clear from the reading that HM stated that she looked like and was not the low mileage sp that he seen before. She went a little overboard on her response. He should have reiterated the point that she was not for certain the one he saw.

As for the behaviour of the others on the board, I think as long as we give eachother respectful distance to make points, the board is big enough for everyone. For instance, there are members of the board that are members of the "SP fanclub" group that get annoyed when others remotely non-positive about their gal, or try to increase the bargaining position that we have. That is why we have the lounge where we can talk about nothing in particular. BTW, I am a member of the "Frugal John" group. I like to find new experience at a reasonable price.

As for content, I think we need less lurkers and more action. Too much of the people that have 20 posts, all looking for info. As well, as long as the people treat the ladies with some respect, I do not have a problem. You have to remember that some of the guys have just come back from a shite session, and maybe a little hot. So in that case a little reigning in is required, but not outright censorship.
 

sirlickheralot

Gold Member
Mar 11, 2003
1,267
0
0
115
Vancouver
My question to all the people who say they saw Howie making all these threats, why are you waiting till now to call him on it? The OB thread was up for quite awhile, plenty of time for people to express their opinions. However at the time it seemed like nobody was accusing Howie of making threats. Now that all the evidence of this altercation has been destroyed, at OB's request I might add, it is open season on HM. It would have been more fair to bring up this debate when the evidence still existed to find Howie guilty or innocent. I agree with dittman, I didn't see anything that went over the line, it seems like people are just rewriting history.

Personally I think there are to many unsubstantiated accusations going on by both parties. G97 says Howie has been attacking her using 4 different handles, is there some proof that links all these handles back to Howie? I have heard the accusation that Howie has been contacting her and harassing her and making threats, is there some proof. Then there is Howie's accusation that G97 and her friends have been hacking his E-mail and sending him viruses, I would also like to see the proof of this.

Just because I am unwilling to condemn Howie without concrete evidence doesn't mean I'm attacking G97. All the people who try to imply that anyone who isn't ready to condemn Howie must be a misogynist who doesn't like women on the board must have gone to the George W. Bush school of though(If you don't support the war on Iraq, you support terrorism). I have stated on this board and TERB on a number of occasions that I enjoy reading what the ladies have to say.
 

Johnsam

New member
Aug 16, 2003
122
0
0
42
I know I spend too much time on here when I wade into shiite like this!

I don't remember G39's accusations of stalking. I remember a very heated debate that went on and on and on. I ignored after the first on. As I recall, what I read reminded me of a very nasty argument between a father and his teenage daughter.

As for HM I miss his words. Didn't always agree with him, but he brought something to the board that is now missing. I also miss some of the other senior players. They brought kind of a sense of order to the board.

As for G39, I have a question. If you live in SK, what are you doing on a board which is mainly for those in the Lower Mainland area of BC?

I agree that some of the reviews contain questionable content. But they go both ways some go beyond what is fair when a SP gives poor service and others get ridiculous when a SP gives exceptional service. This is the internet it didn't invent hyperbole, but it does its best to promote it.

These descriptions are sometimes the best that the reviewer can produce. I've said this before and I'll say this again. Some people do not have the eloquence to express their true thoughts. They may be crass or witty, but for the most part they are only words. Some hurt, some amuse, but they are words. And for the most part they are opinions not facts!

As for shutting down this site. I believe the economics will decide its fate.
 

Groo39

Guest
Aug 21, 2003
123
0
0
SP wasteland: SK
Re: I know I spend too much time on here when I wade into shiite like this!

Johnsam said:

As for G39, I have a question. If you live in SK, what are you doing on a board which is mainly for those in the Lower Mainland area of BC?
Check the board -- it covers all the west, not just Vancouver. I'm also far more likely to be visiting Van than the GTA a couple times a year.

For the most part, I stick to the lounge, and just read reviews for future booking references. However, the tone of the board has gotten so bad that the SPs are now fleeing, the flames by far outnumber the quality posts, and it's time to wade in and do my part to object.

As others have convinced me over the past few weeks, silence is acceptance of the degradation of the board. It's a good resource for both client and SP, but not if it's taken over by degenerates who act like they're still in junior high school.

I have no power to eject users or delete threads -- I'm just a normal member who's tired of watching the community degrade. I live in an area where streetwalkers work (not a class of walker I'd want to hire, either), and as long as they treat the area with respect I don't object, but I have had words with those who start using mine and the neighbour's yards as trash bins.

My friends could confirm that I speak my mind as bluntly and loudly in person as on the boards. I am a firm believer in letting others do as they will provided it hurts no one else, whether it be SPs, drugs, gambling, or otherwise. The behavior of the few on this board affects the community as a whole, and that cannot be ignored.

Ignoring the behavior allows it to fester and escalate, exactly as has been happening here. Left unchecked, this will turn into the "ghetto" of the *ERB boards, and the west coast does not deserve that reputation just because of a few bad posters.
 

wilde

Sinnear Member
Jun 5, 2003
3,022
23
38
Groo39, I admire your intentions but don't you think you are taking this a little too seriously? Please remember that this is a board that review escorts, not some moral high ground. If you feel depressed or bothered after reading something on this board, thats because you are taking things from here into your life. Treat it like work, I always try to leave work at work. If you really want this world to be a better place, you can start by doing volunteer work for your local charities.
 

bigdman

Last emporer of Cunnin
Jun 16, 2003
1,545
0
0
49
burnaby
sirlickheralot said:
My question to all the people who say they saw Howie making all these threats, why are you waiting till now to call him on it? The OB thread was up for quite awhile, plenty of time for people to express their opinions. However at the time it seemed like nobody was accusing Howie of making threats. Now that all the evidence of this altercation has been destroyed, at OB's request I might add, it is open season on HM. It would have been more fair to bring up this debate when the evidence still existed to find Howie guilty or innocent. I agree with dittman, I didn't see anything that went over the line, it seems like people are just rewriting history.

Personally I think there are to many unsubstantiated accusations going on by both parties. G97 says Howie has been attacking her using 4 different handles, is there some proof that links all these handles back to Howie? I have heard the accusation that Howie has been contacting her and harassing her and making threats, is there some proof. Then there is Howie's accusation that G97 and her friends have been hacking his E-mail and sending him viruses, I would also like to see the proof of this.

I agree with sirlickheralot
As much as I like OB a lot, but I am still in doubt regarding to one of her accusation of HW's stalking of her. Her posts stated that HW had PM or emailed her that HW saw her in one of the bars at Yaletown and he was even very close to her that he knew what she was drinking...? I wondered how could HW emailed her while he was at the bar stalking on another woman??
Initially, I thought the argument between HW and OB had calmed down, and all of a sudden, OB had a weird original post started in the Lounge and the frame-war started again...
I regreted that I started that original review, but I did not expect this to happen...
 

PiL

Banned
Jul 16, 2003
52
0
0
wilde said:
Groo39, I admire your intentions but don't you think you are taking this a little too seriously? Please remember that this is a board that review escorts, not some moral high ground. If you feel depressed or bothered after reading something on this board, thats because you are taking things from here into your life. Treat it like work, I always try to leave work at work. If you really want this world to be a better place, you can start by doing volunteer work for your local charities.
First of all, it will be no surprise that I agree 100% with Groo et al about the need for change and a measure of respect for all people on PERB. Are people taking this too seriously? I don't know....who among us enjoys being disrespected and demeaned on a frequent basis (excluding those with a specific kink for that, of course)? This isn't about moral ground so much as it is about giving the ground people should be entitled to in the first place and not discriminating based on gender. Making the industry better for the women also had economic practicality in that instilling equality and respect will encourage more good women to stay longer (especially the gems), it will weed out the frauds, and benefit us by having happier girls willing to give more if they are also allowed to keep their dignity as well.

Being an escort shouldn't necessitate trading in all your self-respect and allowing clients to demean you and treat you like an object. We already have enough problems like this in relation to attitudes that lead to violence against women, so I don't understand why people would want to foster that poison here as well.

PiL
 

PiL

Banned
Jul 16, 2003
52
0
0
bigdman said:
I regreted that I started that original review, but I did not expect this to happen...
I think part of the whole point Groo is trying to make is that you *shouldn't* be sorry for giving an honest review.....but you *should* be upset that the thread was twisted into something more sinister and self-serving. Do you not attach any self-worth to your efforts so as to not feel something at their loss when someone like HM tears it down? Does your need to conform among the other "bros" come before everything else?

PiL