Asian Fever

John Kerry: Building 7 Was Deliberately Demolished

chiapet

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Apr 30, 2005
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Thers a difference between 300 dead and a war in 2 countries, and a BJ

facts vs ignorance...............
I guess you missed the point.

If something only 2 people knew happened and it got leaked out, how could something that at a minimum involved a whole lot more and yet not one person has stepped up and said, ya, i planted the explosives in the world trade centre, or ya it was me that fired the missile at the Pentagon. If more than one person knows a secret it never stays secret for long.

Why hasn't someone involved in it said something?
Oh, wait, they did.

I'm not saying there aren't "elements" within the US government (or any government for that matter) that dream of world domination but seriously, half these people can't find Iraq on a map.

Nevermind, this is an unwinnable debate like abortion or capital punishment, those who believe something else will always believe it.

Peace
 

citylover

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Sep 24, 2006
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Sorry but you are mistaken. THe buildong was hardly what you could call "badly damaged" and had a few small, isolated fires. Sure, you can blow the crap outta anything with C4 but in order to make a building come down like it did (into its own footprint) you have to carefully plan where the explosives are placed, wire them all to the detonator/timer to make sure that they all go off in the order that they're supposed to and they also sever many of the load bearing members before places charges on the remaining ones.
you really shouldn't argue w/ the good doktor. besides being in medicine, he's got a 2nd job as a stock trader by day, a climatology scientist by night, and now an engineer & demolitions expert. A regular renaissance man (complete w/ his ideas hardly having left the middle ages)

he got all his degrees at the same time, from Spam University who floods your e-mail address w/ offers.

You, too, can be a doctor! All it takes is a check book & gullibility.

May I interest you in helping me get my family fortune out of Nigeria?
 

citylover

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Sep 24, 2006
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I have just read what these so-called "physics professors" have written in their articles and haven't see so much bull in my life. Interesting how they can twist the facts to suit their hypothisis by disregarding basic engineering principles.

As I have always maintained. Physisists know dick about engineering. LOL
Now, why does he trust the "skeptics" who diss global warming but ignore the "skeptics" who float BS conspiracies about 911?

I guess it's because one has the full backing of the Exxon Disinformation Campaign... & one doesn't!

Otherwise he coulda wrote:

I have just read what these so-called "global warming skeptical professors" have written in their articles and haven't see so much bull in my life. Interesting how they can twist the facts to suit their hypothisis by disregarding basic principles.

As I have always maintained. These skeptics know dick about science. LOL
 

Cali Scott

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Jun 19, 2005
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you really shouldn't argue w/ the good doktor. besides being in medicine, he's got a 2nd job as a stock trader by day, a climatology scientist by night, and now an engineer & demolitions expert. A regular renaissance man (complete w/ his ideas hardly having left the middle ages)

he got all his degrees at the same time, from Spam University who floods your e-mail address w/ offers.

You, too, can be a doctor! All it takes is a check book & gullibility.

May I interest you in helping me get my family fortune out of Nigeria?
The facts are there in relatively plain sight: You cannot make a 47 story building do this with a few randomly placed charges. Especially when you consider that (in their story), the building was burning and in danger of immanent collapse.

There are plans of the building footprint available in several places online, check it out yourself. There are photo's and video of the building from a couple of angles before the collapse as well.

Not a Dr. and I gave up day trading about 10 years ago, not into climatology (but I have a weather station on my house, does that count?). You know, I never really thought of it but I guess you could call me a Renaisance man and I thank you for that. My background and interests encompass a pretty broad variety of subject matter but not demolitions (no regrets there, eh.).

Regarding your spam reference: IMHO, you're the one who either doesn't see or ignores the multitude of holes in the government's "conspiracy theory" or the subsequent explainations of the cause of the collapses...(ad nauseum). This would seem to indicate that it is you, who are a bit gullible. I'll bet you believe that the U.S. is in Iraq to fight al Quaida too, right?

I am sorry that you seem to be one of those who think that some certification is necessary to have an opinion that is worth consideration; especially here in the 21st century and the masssive amount of resources and information available at our fingertips. You said that I have ideas from the middle-ages (whatever the eff THAT means). Well it's a bit hypocritical as your closed mindedness is quite Medieval there bud.

The same thing goes for those tittering in the background about how physics has nothing to do with engineering (I am really at a loss for words on that one...) Of course they're not engineers; the are physicists! Are YOU an engineer? If you were, you'd know what the laws of physics has to do with engineering (or with anything for that matter). Are you speaking of ADVANCED physics? Mr. Jones is not, only the basic stuff which I would certainly think he would be well qualified to speak his opinion on. You see, science is based upon the empirical method where present a hypothesis and you (or others) attempt to prove or disprove that it is a viable hypothesis. In fact, quite a few ENGINEERS as well as his colleagues have joined him in his call for a new and independent inquiry (what flippin' unqualified idiots, huh?).
 

citylover

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Sep 24, 2006
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SHEEESH! a guy can't even get in a pissing contest w/o someone stepping into the stream!

Get a life, a sense of humor, or something that can carry thought... or mebbe go get laid

I wasn't pissing on you

but, yeah, the gov't is covering up a huge conspiracy, they blew the buildings up cause they wanted Donald Trump to have his very own TV show... for further insidious reasons


So... the building was badly damaged and they brought it down in a controlled way instead of letting a 47 story building fall in a random direction.

And this is a problem because...?
 

Cali Scott

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SHEEESH! a guy can't even get in a pissing contest w/o someone stepping into the stream!

Get a life, a sense of humor, or something that can carry thought... or mebbe go get laid

I wasn't pissing on you

but, yeah, the gov't is covering up a huge conspiracy, they blew the buildings up cause they wanted Donald Trump to have his very own TV show... for further insidious reasons
Sure CL, and yer not pissing on me now either, are you. I've got the slippery flip-flops and I believe that stream was aimed right at my bare foot dude. Are you saying that though you quoted me, you were not talking to me? It sure seemed to be dripping with sarcasm to me!

Except for the last paragraph which was not directed at you, I thought it had a pretty friendly tone. I am pointing out that even though one may not be a certified mechanic, they could have a thorough understanding of exactly how an automobile's many systems work.

Yes, I feel that the government IS covering up something. I am just not certain what their involvement was. There are dozens of indicators that they are not telling us the entire truth and ignore or marginalize serious inquiries. You don't have to look much further than the gag orders on the Firemen and the sealing of the blueprints for WTC 1&2.

Because I take getting a second investigation seriously doesn't mean that I live in my mother's basement, wear a tinfoil hat or have too much time with my dick in my hands dude. I happen to take the dozens of inconsistencies and obvious fabrications pretty seriously especially since it has been used as an excuse by our lying lil' shrub of a president and his neo-con pals for everything from invading Iraq to field stripping our civil liberties. Of course, there's the matter of 3,000 plus dead too. The survivors and the families of the dead think something is up as well.
 

ThighMan

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Jan 19, 2005
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Now, why does he trust the "skeptics" who diss global warming but ignore the "skeptics" who float BS conspiracies about 911?
citylover - where have I ever said that I trust anyone who does not believe global warming is occuring. If you look through my posts you will find that I have repeatedly stated that I believe global warming is occuring. What I have stated is that I believe an economically viable approach should be taken to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and that we should not be tied to arbitrary and unacheavable goals set out by the Kyoto accord.

If you are going to quote me - MAKE SURE YOU GET IT RIGHT.
 
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ThighMan

It's in the name
Jan 19, 2005
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I am sorry that you seem to be one of those who think that some certification is necessary to have an opinion that is worth consideration; especially here in the 21st century and the masssive amount of resources and information available at our fingertips.
CS - Everyone has a right to express any opinion they wish as long as it does not impinge on the rights of others (such as being racist, etc.) and you are correct in stating that "certification is not necessary to have an opinion".. That is the beauty of "Freedom of Expression" as guaranteed in the Canadian Charter of Rights. However, having an opinion and having that opinion being accepted as correct by otheres are not the same thing.

The same thing goes for those tittering in the background about how physics has nothing to do with engineering (I am really at a loss for words on that one...) Of course they're not engineers; the are physicists! Are YOU an engineer? If you were, you'd know what the laws of physics has to do with engineering (or with anything for that matter). Are you speaking of ADVANCED physics? Mr. Jones is not, only the basic stuff which I would certainly think he would be well qualified to speak his opinion on. You see, science is based upon the empirical method where present a hypothesis and you (or others) attempt to prove or disprove that it is a viable hypothesis. In fact, quite a few ENGINEERS as well as his colleagues have joined him in his call for a new and independent inquiry (what flippin' unqualified idiots, huh?).
YES - I am an engineer. And I never said that the laws of physics has nothing to do with engineering. What I said was that most physicists are not qualified to address engineering issues. Engineering uses some of the principles of physics - ENGINEERING IS NOT PHYSICS. As for Dr. Jones - his bio states that his area of expertise is plasma physics. Plasma physics has nothing to do with mechanics and just because someone is an expert in one area of physics does not mean that they know anything about another area of physics. If you would trust a physicist to design a building for you then I would have to question your sanity. As for Dr. Jones's "falling marble" analogy for the colapse of the WTCs, he has conveniently ignore two basic principles of mechanics: 1. The transfer of momentum and 2. shock waves.
 

ThighMan

It's in the name
Jan 19, 2005
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You know, I never really thought of it but I guess you could call me a Renaisance man and I thank you for that.
CS - The Renaisance was in the 1300's - 1500's. I am thinking that your knowledge is more up to date than that. :D

PS. - I hope you have a sense of humour. :)
 

citylover

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Sep 24, 2006
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citylover

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Yes, I feel that the government IS covering up something. I am just not certain what their involvement was. There are dozens of indicators that they are not telling us the entire truth and ignore or marginalize serious inquiries. You don't have to look much further than the gag orders on the Firemen and the sealing of the blueprints for WTC 1&2.

sloowwwllly walking away... no sudden moves... smiling brightly.... get to the door....



RUN LIKE HELL FROM THE CRAZY MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Cali Scott

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CS - Everyone has a right to express any opinion they wish as long as it does not impinge on the rights of others (such as being racist, etc.) and you are correct in stating that "certification is not necessary to have an opinion".. That is the beauty of "Freedom of Expression" as guaranteed in the Canadian Charter of Rights. However, having an opinion and having that opinion being accepted as correct by otheres are not the same thing.
I should have been more concise. I meant to say that certification is not necessary to have an EDUCATED opinion. e.g. I am not a "mechanic" but I have a pretty intimate working knowlege of all of the systems in my truck. This knowlege is thorough enough that I know if a mechanic is BSing me and can pretty much diagnose what is wrong.

We have the same gaurantee here in our bill of rights. Unfortunately, if AIPAC and the ADL (American Isreali Political Action Commitee and Anti-Defamation League) have anything to say, it's gonna be severely weakened.

YES - I am an engineer. And I never said that the laws of physics has nothing to do with engineering. What I said was that most physicists are not qualified to address engineering issues. Engineering uses some of the principles of physics - ENGINEERING IS NOT PHYSICS. As for Dr. Jones - his bio states that his area of expertise is plasma physics. Plasma physics has nothing to do with mechanics and just because someone is an expert in one area of physics does not mean that they know anything about another area of physics. If you would trust a physicist to design a building for you then I would have to question your sanity. As for Dr. Jones's "falling marble" analogy for the colapse of the WTCs, he has conveniently ignore two basic principles of mechanics: 1. The transfer of momentum and 2. shock waves.
What I was trying to say Thighman is that every field of engineering is based upon physics. We're not talking particle physics but Newtonian. Prof. Jones specialty is indeed plasma however, he teaches Physics 101 and as a professor he should be well versed in the basics like angular momentum and conservation of energy.

Unfortunately, I am not aware of this "falling marble" analogy which you cite and cannot discuss it unless you point me to it. My understanding of his work comes soley from his essay titled "Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Completely Collapse".

CS - The Renaisance was in the 1300's - 1500's. I am thinking that your knowledge is more up to date than that. :D

PS. - I hope you have a sense of humour. :)
Yeup, I sure do have a sense of humor and my knowlege is more up to date! To clarify, I'm using the normal definition of Renaissance man which according to Wikipedia is: "A Renaissance man or Homo universalis is a common term that refers to a person who excels in many fields of work and knowledge"
 

Cali Scott

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sloowwwllly alking away... no sudden moves... smiling brightly.... get to the door....

RUN LIKE HELL FROM THE CRAZY MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you saying that the gag order and blueprint thing didn't happen? I am not certain what you're getting at here; are you?

This is exactly what I meant by "ignore or marginalize serious inquiries". Good imitation of the federal government, dude!
 
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Cali Scott

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Is that Bush?

Obviously a conspiracy took place. The question is whether the governments conspiracy theory with Saudi hijackers that they cannot provide video of (and of whom later were shown to be alive and well) is the correct theory. They STILL do not appear on any of the passenger manifests, BTW. Additionally, GWB has more than proven himself to be a compulsive LIAR!

My point with this thread is that one minute Silverstein says they pulled WTC 7, the next, he says he was talking about the firemen. Coumo says it was coming down and now, here comes Kerry saying that they DID demo the building. It differs enough from the official explaination (what little they provided for WTC 7) to warrant a re-evaluation of EVERYTHING they told us happened. Or, are you naive enough to think that they lied about WTC 7 but, the rest of the 9/11 story was true?
 
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sdw

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Jul 14, 2005
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It seems that fire can cause cement and steel to melt

A gasoline tanker has overturned and burned under an interchange in Oakland. It caused the interchange to melt and collapse.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/29/highway.collapse.ap/index.html
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3097914

The people who have been insisting that Building 7 couldn't possibly have collapsed because the diesel fuel for the ConEd facility in the basement and the emergency response center upstairs caught on fire are feeling a little silly right now.
 

Cali Scott

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A gasoline tanker has overturned and burned under an interchange in Oakland. It caused the interchange to melt and collapse.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/29/highway.collapse.ap/index.html
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3097914

The people who have been insisting that Building 7 couldn't possibly have collapsed because the diesel fuel for the ConEd facility in the basement and the emergency response center upstairs caught on fire are feeling a little silly right now.
Not even a little bit, dude (and I think that I could speak for any of us).

First off: this tanker was carrying GASOLINE and in an open and oxygen rich environment. It's an overpass built with concrete and a little Rebar. You're speaking of a completely different animal. One is a STEEL BUILDING and the other CONCRETE overpass. Not even remotely similar. Same goes with comparing gasoline to jet fuel or diesel. What you're comparing is like comparing your automobile to a jetliner - both are made of metal and have rubber tires with steel wheels: only remotely similar.

Why? Gasoline has a much lower flashpoint and burns hotter. Overpass is not a building and has rebar for lateral compression support and its vertical load is supported pretty much solely by the concrete which has small voids and moisture and a drainage network for rainwater. Put a big fire underneath and heat up those voids and moisture and viola... Overpasses are not built to ANY fire code, only seismic and load bearing specs. ANy fiew related specs are minor in comparrison with the strict fire codes in NYC (the rest of the nation bases it's fire codes on them).

To point out the painfully obvious, an overpass is spanning an EMPTY space, WTC 7 is a 47 story skyscraper with thick-assed steel supports everywhere to support both the vertical loading and any horizontal stress. Finally, NO steel framed skyscraper ANYWHERE, has EVER collapsed due to fire - NEVER! There have been fires that burned intensely for 24 hours and the building was STILL standing!

Diesel fuel was for back-up generators for the emergency operations center upstairs and there is no indication (especially when you look at the building) that it ignited.

It sure doesn't look like the overpass was turned into a small pile of rubble and dropped into its own footprint.

Both Sen. Kerry and Silverstein say that the building was demo'd. I guess the leaseholder of the building in question and a U.S. Senator (who should have won the presidency) are much less on the ball than you SDW; good lookin' out! Sorry to be a smartass here but seriously, they told you what happened and you STILL don't believe it!

What they are trying to tell us with WTC 1, 2 and 7 is like saying that whole freeway interchange and not just the overpass collapsed due to a fire at that one point.
 
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Sonny

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Sep 12, 2004
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Gasoline has a much lower flashpoint and burns hotter.
Well, if you are going to say it, then you have to prove it if your assertion is queried. Myself, with no knowledge of the facts whatsoever, I'd wager that jet fuel burns hotter than gasoline.

But since you are the scientist here, maybe you can provide the scientific proof to your claim... complete with links to the data, please.
 
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FuZzYknUckLeS

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May 11, 2005
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henryhill said:
...Even if they had all the architects who designed the building on hand it would still take days of preparation just for the installation.
Actually, the architects wouldn't have a fuckin' clue.
Perhaps you meant to say 'engineers'?
They are, after all, the ones that design the structure.
 

sdw

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Jul 14, 2005
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Not even a little bit, dude (and I think that I could speak for any of us).

First off: this tanker was carrying GASOLINE and in an open and oxygen rich environment. It's an overpass built with concrete and a little Rebar. You're speaking of a completely different animal. One is a STEEL BUILDING and the other CONCRETE overpass. Not even remotely similar. Same goes with comparing gasoline to jet fuel or diesel. What you're comparing is like comparing your automobile to a jetliner - both are made of metal and have rubber tires with steel wheels: only remotely similar.

Why? Gasoline has a much lower flashpoint and burns hotter. Overpass is not a building and has rebar for lateral compression support and its vertical load is supported pretty much solely by the concrete which has small voids and moisture and a drainage network for rainwater. Put a big fire underneath and heat up those voids and moisture and viola... Overpasses are not built to ANY fire code, only seismic and load bearing specs. ANy fiew related specs are minor in comparrison with the strict fire codes in NYC (the rest of the nation bases it's fire codes on them).

To point out the painfully obvious, an overpass is spanning an EMPTY space, WTC 7 is a 47 story skyscraper with thick-assed steel supports everywhere to support both the vertical loading and any horizontal stress. Finally, NO steel framed skyscraper ANYWHERE, has EVER collapsed due to fire - NEVER! There have been fires that burned intensely for 24 hours and the building was STILL standing!

Diesel fuel was for back-up generators for the emergency operations center upstairs and there is no indication (especially when you look at the building) that it ignited.

It sure doesn't look like the overpass was turned into a small pile of rubble and dropped into its own footprint.

Both Sen. Kerry and Silverstein say that the building was demo'd. I guess the leaseholder of the building in question and a U.S. Senator (who should have won the presidency) are much less on the ball than you SDW; good lookin' out! Sorry to be a smartass here but seriously, they told you what happened and you STILL don't believe it!

What they are trying to tell us with WTC 1, 2 and 7 is like saying that whole freeway interchange and not just the overpass collapsed due to a fire at that one point.
Linked are the combustion temperature and the flash point of various fuels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_of_combustion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel
http://www.hyweb.de/Knowledge/w-i-energiew-eng2.html
http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/article10.html
3.1 STEEL

Appearance


Temperature

Yellow


320°

Brown


350°

Purple


400°

Blue


450°

* steel starts to weaken at 200°

* loses 50% of its structural strength and sags at 550°

* melt point of steel 1100°-1650°

Note that once the steel is hot enough to sag, the steel will deform and the building will collapse. Gasoline, Diesel and Jet Fuel all burn hot enough. Gas at 21,000 isn't that far from 19,300 so the actual fuel isn't important in this case.

http://www.kuleuven.ac.be/bwk/materials/Teaching/master/wg04b/l0400.htm
"Steel members will collapse in a fire when their temperature reaches a "critical" level. This critical temperature varies according to the load conditions, the cold design theory adopted and the temperature distribution across the section, which typically is in the range 500 to 900°C.

The fire resistance time is the time, in the standard ISO834 fire test, taken by the member to reach the critical temperature. This time varies according to the section size. In a building in which a natural fire occurs the heating rate is also influenced by the member location. The thicker the steel the slower is the heating rate and therefore the greater is the fire resistance time.

The heating rate is quantified by the Section Factor, known as the Am /A ratio, where Am is the perimeter of the steel member exposed to the fire, and A is the total cross-sectional area of the section. Consequently, a heavy member with a low Am /A ratio will be heated more slowly than a light member with high value of the section factor. Tables are published giving values of section factors for standard section sizes.

For a member to fulfil a given fire resistance requirement, it is necessary to ensure that the temperature developed in the member at the required fire resistance time (taking into account its Section Factor and any insulation which may be applied) is less than the critical temperature necessary to cause failure (also known as the "critical temperature").

For short periods of fire resistance (15, 30 minutes) stability may be attained by unprotected steelwork. A fire resistance time of 60 minutes may sometimes be obtained without applying fire protection by utilising the thermal and/or structural interaction between steel and concrete. For longer periods of fire resistance time, the steelwork can be protected by applying an insulating material, by using screens, or, in the case of hollow sections, by the recirculation of water. Composite steel-concrete structures can also exhibit significant fire resistance.

A brief survey of the simpler practical means of achieving structural fire resistance in steel structures is presented. It is important to recognise, however, that considerable research and development work (fuel loads based on natural fires) is being undertaken in Europe. This work aims to optimise the process of the fire resistant design of structural steelwork leading to further economies in construction."

You don't build a requirement for fire resistance into the building code unless you have suffered a collapse due to deformation of the steel structure.
 
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