How to get out of "friendzone"?

[Ned Flanders]

I could not say much better than this guy. I think there actually is a nice guy syndrome defined on the web.

 

[thebuttdance continues]

...You fell in the trap, sucks to be you; dust yourself off and move on :nod:

Gentlemen, be aware of your own Value and command Respect. (Ladies, you know you like it!)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2416220/40-Days-Dating-blogger-couple-reveal-broken-up.html (an interesting article on two coed friends' dating experiment)

 

[CJ Tylers]

*shrug* Ask her to be your wing girl. If she says no, but still wants to hang out as only friends, then you shouldn't have any compunction about hitting on girls in her presence. Once you're on the friends ladder, the only way back is if she puts you there. So long as you respect your placement & don't bother with trying to change it, things should be good.

If she's offended, well, then you need to have a frank discussion about what she wants from you.

 

[Bartdude]

Every now and again, it becomes relevant to post the information on The Ladder Theory, so here it goes:

(sorry but no, there is no jumping ladders...)

www.laddertheory.com

Wow this might be the best thing I've seen on the internet this year LOL ound:

 

[Miss*Bijou]

As a side comment, the ladder theory is amusing but seriously flawed.

This is a big subject and I was not in the mood to write a full essay on it but can give you a few thoughts.

First off, when women "decide" whether a man is a romantic option or not, this is not really a decision or a rational choice, it is more a function of chemistry and genetics. After the fact there is a lot of rationalization about the "choice", but you do not get to pick who you are attracted to-it tends to develop organically.

Secondly, it implies that a woman's primary drive in terms of a romantic partnership is financial (i.e. rich guy), and the exceptions that want the outlaw biker are doing it because they cannot find anyone rich, and they are psychologically damaged.....

I could not be more misogynistic if I tried......

Basically, the subject is pretty broad canvas, and the ladder theory notices a few of the behavior patterns and presents them as core and universal motivations.

Agree. Not a fan of the ladder theory. I think a lot of it is nonsense.. And when a website includes this in its glossary:

"Bitch -- 99.999% of women. Note for men: I know they are. Note to women: yes, you are in this group. More accurately it is a woman who is not honest about whyshe won't sleep with you. Or sometimes, just a woman who won't sleep with you. And of course women who won't admit the basic truth of Ladder Theory. "


That's as much as I need to read. Kind of surprised it was posted by a woman - it's usually always a man who posts that link. lol

 

[Miss*Bijou]

I could not say much better than this guy. I think there actually is a nice guy syndrome defined on the web.

The Nice Guy Syndrome:


http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Nice_guy_syndrome

.
.​

A classic...

Explainer: What is a "Nice Guy®?"


What is a "Nice Guy?"

Ah, the Nice Guy®. Pity the Nice Guy®. No, please, pity him. He desperately wants you to. And while you're pitying him, would it kill you to give him a mercy fuck? Whether or not he ever asks for it? Because, if not, he's going to become an angry, embittered Nice Guy®, and that...well, that's just pathetic.

No, seriously.

All right. Seriously. A Nice Guy® is a guy who tells you, in a bitter, resentful tone, that women don't date "nice guys," they only date "bad boys," and because he's "too nice," women only view him as a friend.


What's wrong with that statement?

He's not a friend to women.


But don't women go for the bad boy?

Okay, I can see we're not going to get anywhere this way, so let's take a look at a typical Nice Guy® giving his natural mating cry, known to most people as a "loud, obnoxious whine." I think he does a great job of illustrating his own pathologies, far better than I can do:

I see this question posted with some regularity in the personals section, so I thought I'd take a minute to explain things to the ladies out there that haven't figured it out.

What happened to all the nice guys?

The answer is simple: you did.

As you can see, the Nice Guy®'s first target, in everything, is women. Usually it's a specific woman, but she's a stand-in for all women, as we'll see.

See, if you think back, really hard, you might vaguely remember a Platonic guy pal who always seemed to want to spend time with you. He'd tag along with you when you went shopping, stop by your place for a movie when you were lonely but didn't feel like going out, or even sit there and hold you while you sobbed and told him about how horribly the (other) guy that you were fucking treated you.

At the time, you probably joked with your girlfriends about how he was a little puppy dog, always following you around, trying to do things to get you to pay attention to him. They probably teased you because they thought he had a crush on you. Given that his behavior was, admittedly, a little pathetic, you vehemently denied having any romantic feelings for him, and buttressed your position by claiming that you were "just friends." Besides, he totally wasn't your type. I mean, he was a little too short, or too bald, or too fat, or too poor, or didn't know how to dress himself, or basically be or do any of the things that your tall, good-looking, fit, rich, stylish boyfriend at the time pulled off with such ease.

Now, read the two paragraphs above, and you realize a few things. First of all, that Nice Guy®, who was willing to be a friend to a woman? He wasn't nice, and he wasn't her friend. He was choosing to feign niceness in the hopes of getting sex.

Well, can't being nice lead to sex?

Being nice? Sure. But he was "nice." What that entails, as you see above, is that he hung around a woman, saying he was her friend, never telling her that he wanted to have a non-platonic relationship. He just expected she'd know that he wanted her because...well, why else would a guy hang out with a woman? And note that he claims she did, while giving no evidence she did.

Eventually, your Platonic buddy drifted away, as your relationship with the boyfriend got more serious and spending time with this other guy was, admittedly, a little weird, if you werent dating him. More time passed, and the boyfriend eventually cheated on you, or became boring, or you realized that the things that attracted you to him weren't the kinds of things that make for a good, long-term relationship. So, now, you're single again, and after having tried the bar scene for several months having only encountered players and douche bags, you wonder, "What happened to all the nice guys?"

Well, once again, you did.

You ignored the nice guy. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy. You laughed at his consideration and resented his devotion. You valued the aloof boyfriend more than the attentive "just-a-" friend. Eventually, he took the hint and moved on with his life. [Emphasis mine]

I'm breaking that paragraph in two, because that statement deserves highlighting again. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy. How clearer could the Nice Guy®'s antipathy toward this woman, and all women, be? Emotional intimacy, this says, is what women want. Physical intimacy is what men want. I gave, you should have given. Quid pro quo and all that.

Except...men and women both need both physical and emotional intimacy, as anyone with any understanding of humans knows. And the two do not always go hand-in-hand, as anyone with any understanding of humans knows. The Nice Guy® is hampered because all he knows about women comes from his reading of evolutionary psychology and his internalization of patriarchal ideals. And despite his long, enduring friendship with a woman that was so wonderful and giving, he never learned enough about her to find out more.

He probably came to realize, one day, that women aren't really attracted to guys who hold doors open; or make dinners just because; or buy you a Christmas gift that you mentioned, in passing, that you really wanted five months ago; or listen when you're upset; or hold you when you cry. He came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he'd have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an asshole than he ever wanted to be.

Oh, for the love of the Ceiling Cat.

That is pretty pathetic.

It's not just that. Look, I'm not proud of it, but I'm a recovering Nice Guy®. And I can tell you that there was a time when I sort of bought the nice guy/bad boy crap. But you know what? In real life, most of the "bad boys" are actually, well, nice guys. I'm willing to bet this woman's boyfriend did buy her presents and hold her when she cried and listen when she was upset. That's not to say he was perfect, because nobody is, and he may have even had some downright lousy traits. But that doesn't make him evil; it makes him human.

This is the ultimate failing of the Nice Guy®; he takes away the wrong message from not getting a date with His One True Love. The message he internalizes is that he's too nice. But the reality is that he never states his actual intentions.

There's no crime in being attracted to someone who started as a true platonic friend. But if you're actually a friend, you deal with that like an adult dealing with a friend. You tell them what you're feeling. Maybe you find out that they share your feelings. Maybe you find out they don't. Maybe you feel after that you can stay friends, and maybe you can't.

But if you never make your intentions clear, you can't complain that your One True Love didn't read your mind. If she views you as just a friend, she may think you view her that way too. After all, you say you're her friend, right?

Fact is, now, he's probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that. And I'm sorry that it took the complete absence of "nice guys" in your life for you to realize that you missed them and wanted them. Most women will only have a handful of nice guys stumble into their lives, if that.

Dude, you're selling men short. Many, I daresay most, guys are nice. They're not perfect, and they've got their own issues, but they're not mean.

But Nice Guy® here? He's not part of that cohort. He's a jerk, a self-centered asshole. And if you doubt that, read his closing:

So, if you're looking for a nice guy, here's what you do:

1.) Build a time machine.
2.) Go back a few years and pull your head out of your ass.
3.) Take a look at what's right in front of you and grab ahold of it.

I suppose the other possibility is that you STILL don't really want a nice guy, but you feel the social pressure to at least appear to have matured beyond your infantile taste in men. In which case, you might be in luck, because the nice guy you claim to want has, in reality, shed his nice guy mantle and is out there looking to unleash his cynicism and resentment onto someone just like you.

If you were five years younger.

So, please: either stop misrepresenting what you want, or own up to the fact that you've fucked yourself over. You're getting older, after all. It's time to excise the bullshit and deal with reality. You didn't want a nice guy then, and he certainly doesn't fucking want you, now.

In short: he hates you now. He wouldn't fuck you with a ten-foot pole, and indeed, he's spending his time banging hot chicks, hotter than you.

How "nice."

You see, a Nice Guy® isn't nice, and never was. He wasn't your friend. He didn't even like you. He was just a guy trying to get in your pants.

Had he been your friend, really been your friend, he wouldn't hate you now. He would value the emotional connection you once shared, while occasionally lamenting that he didn't tell you how he felt when he had the chance. You see, the emotional connection you once shared would have value to him. But it didn't. He didn't care about you, and he wasn't a nice guy.

And the guy (or girl) you're dating now, the one who makes dinner at least half the time and likes to talk to you deep into the night? They're nice. So's your friend who comes over on Tuesdays to watch bad movies. They're not looking to get physical, and if they ever changed their mind, they'd let you know.

But Nice Guy®s don't think like that. Your nice s.o., your nice friends, they like you, and value you for you. The Nice Guy® views you as an object, interchangeable with any other woman out there. And that's all they ever did.

http://www.shakesville.com/2007/12/explainer-what-is-nice-guy.html

<a target='_blank' title='ImageShack - Image And Video Hosting' href='http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/f0jl.png/'><img src='http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8666/f0jl.png' border='0'/></a>

 

[CJ Tylers]

hmmm...there's a lot of hateful stuffs on the webz. Plain and simple, all the good ones are taken and the rest, well, you probably don't want them. Common complaint for both sexes, yes?

 

[PlayfulAlex]

Agree. Not a fan of the ladder theory. I think a lot of it is nonsense.. And when a website includes this in its glossary:

"Bitch -- 99.999% of women. Note for men: I know they are. Note to women: yes, you are in this group. More accurately it is a woman who is not honest about whyshe won't sleep with you. Or sometimes, just a woman who won't sleep with you. And of course women who won't admit the basic truth of Ladder Theory. "


That's as much as I need to read. Kind of surprised it was posted by a woman - it's usually always a man who posts that link. lol

Well I've only been around perb for a few years, and I originally heard about the Ladder Theory during my PoF days (yeah, way back then)! I'm not going to say that I agree with every paragraph written there but, the bottom line is, guys wanna have sex with you, you don't wanna have sex with them, they stick around, and you do like them as a human being, you just don't wanna date them, so you offer/agree to keep them around as a 'friend'.

Meanwhile, the guy always hope to get into your pants, and he is there for you through thick and thin, which usually means every dumb-ass relationship that you get yourself into, whether it be a biker-dude or whatever. Meanwhile, buddy is there to soothe a broken heart, feed you bon-bons, take you to the movies, or anything to help you mend a broken heart. In the vain attempt to show you that he's worth boning.

Sorry if it's kinda raw...

 

[VanessaofBC]

I am sorry, but that, THAT was post of the year. Love it. Once you scroll down and it all becomes clear. Great. A lot of thought went into that!!!
edit: it is so much easier to fall in love with the guy if you have good chemistry. Sometimes chemistry takes time so it depends what type of relationship you are looking for.

 

[AA_Train]

Let the multi quoting madness begin!!!

If a girl says, "I just wanna be friends."

You say, "I have enough friends."

No!! Pretending to be somebody's friend because you want to fuck them is stupid and will kill your self esteem!! Make clear that you see them romantically and that's it.

These answers are correct. Circle gets the squares.

The one who takes it out of the friend zone is the woman.

SO NOT TRUE!!!! In college, I had a female friend who was pretty cute (or so others said) who was hopelessly in love with me. She was very dear to me but I wasn't interested. She confronted me about it, even tried to set up a romantic-type scenario to persuade me but it was a no go. I told her how it was for me, if that was a problem, then that was the end of things. She didn't want that and neither did I so we moved on with no long term hurt feelings. She withdrew her advances, met someone else, got married and they have a kid together. She lives on the Island and we still chat from time to time via Facebook and I even had dinner with them when they came here to visit family and friends. Now, we are just more "old college buddies" than actual friends.

To think that women are the ones who are the soul deciders of when sex occurs is just female arrogance. It ALWAYS takes two to tango.

Nope, sorry. I believe the nature of your relationship is established upon first meeting. And while it will almost always develop within that category (you will become closer friends if you're friends, better lovers if you're lovers, even more deeply romantically involved if you are romantically involved) you can't jump from your category into another...

Another erroneous statement. How many people tell stories about how at first they couldn't stand their Husband/Wife and/or the other didn't really give much thought to the other when they first met? Quite a few. You meet the people you meet where you meet them and you feel about them the way you feel. Those feelings aren't necessarily set in stone and the path may hit forks in the road where you can go one way or the other. My Mom and Dad met at a party and while friendly with each other, were for a time not much more than acquaintances. My dad left for Mexico, came back 3 months later, they reconnected and hit it off.

If you're in the friendzone who cares, use it to your advantage. Gives you more options of people to call for a ride when dropping your car off for an oil change etc. Sometimes hanging with one girl is a plus when trying to get into the pants of another.

She has friends, network that shit. I wouldn't kick her aside just because she won't do you

Tried that with mostly negative results. Women are VERY territorial with their men no matter the nature of the relationship. I've found lots of women want you to be a "dick in a jar" that they can pop open if their current situation goes asunder.

http://www.laddertheory.com/laddervideos.htm

Hilarious - every woman says yes - men and women can be "just friends" and every guy says - no way.

Then when the interviewer explores further; every woman admits that their male friends would sleep with them if given the chance.

Women, so cute - yet so much denial.

Don't agree with you most of the time but I think you hit the nail on the head there.

The only time I think it works... is if the guy has already had sex with the woman. You may end up as friends after that and even if you'd like to get back in her pants, it's not a big deal because you've at least been with her. But it you've never been with her? No way...

True, in most cases. It's usually because the chemistry isn't there but you still enjoy being with her for other reasons. For me, "ladders" can be jumped but only one time. Meaning, if we had sex and it didn't work out, we could still be friends but we couldn't go back to being lovers. If we were friends who became lovers, we couldn't go back to being friends. The friendship dies once sex enters the equation. It still baffles me how anybody's SO is their best friend. You don't fuck your friends and I mean that in every sense of the world. Things always get messy.

 

[AA_Train]

Btw (yes, I'm quoting my own post!) I have a friend. He started out on one ladder, it didn't work out, and I moved him to the other ladder. He never let's me forget that he wants back on the other ladder. I always let him know that he will never get back onto the other ladder. He continues to stick around. If he wants to stick around, knowing that there is no chance for him, and he doesn't pressure me, or make me feel uncomfortable, I can live with it. He IS a nice guy and he does care about me, plus he's honest about the wanting-to-get-back-into-your-pants part...

I don't know how long you've known him or all the details of your relationship, but if you know this and you keep him around, you are doing him a great disservice. Also, how can you trust him if you know that the nice things he does for you are ultimately just an attempt to try to get back into your pants once again? if it were me, i'd always be suspicious of an ulterior motive and couldn't take things at face value (mind you, I'm a pretty suspicious person). You seem like a nice enough person and I believe you genuinely like him, but what is best for him in the long term is for you to cut him loose. Otherwise, looking at it from a guys perspective, it seems like you are keeping him as some kind of a back up plan.

 

[beaverbuzz]

The trick to getting out of the friend zone is to never be in the friend zone in the first place. There is a process that occurs from when you first meet a lady to when you become intimate with said lady.

- You meet the lady
- You connect with the lady/ build some form of attraction
- You build rapport/ trust with said lady
- ** AT some point there is a fork in the road, left you go to friend zone, right you go to lover zone.. at this point you need to progress physically; i.e kiss, make out, sex etc if you do not progress physically you will get categorized and placed in the friend zone. When you meet a lady you should be progressing physically almost immediately even if its a hug, then a kiss, then a make out , etc

I will give you a huge tip to all men out there; when you meet a women, try and spark a connection and or attraction instantly some of you may have this some of you may not. If you wish to stay out of the friend zone your goal is to progress physically in a playful manner and esculate till you have reached your goal. For instance you meet a lady build some attraction, then maybe start with something as simple as a grab her hand and say hey we are moving way to fast for holding hands/ I'm not ready for that kind of commitment and playfully throw it back at her but each time you are eveluating whether she is receptive to the body contact. I will assure you if she is attracted to you she will be really receptive, if she isn;t the trust/attraction isnt there and you will have to revert back try and build some attraction/trust and then come back to body contact.

Say she is receptive to you holding her hand/body contact non sexually, maybe ramp things up a bit and say "oh my I just noticed you have the most amazing lips I have ever seen but do you know how to use them? and go for a kiss..etc go 2 steps forward one step back and each time progress alittle more building trust along the way..

I hope that makes sense!

Protip: If you are having troubles progressing physically ask to give her a massage! No girl is going to say no to a shoulder/back massage and things can esculate quickly from there if you know what I mean

 

[thebuttdance continues]

Agree. Not a fan of the ladder theory. I think a lot of it is nonsense.. And when a website includes this in its glossary:

"Bitch -- 99.999% of women. Note for men: I know they are. Note to women: yes, you are in this group. More accurately it is a woman who is not honest about whyshe won't sleep with you. Or sometimes, just a woman who won't sleep with you. And of course women who won't admit the basic truth of Ladder Theory. "

That's as much as I need to read. Kind of surprised it was posted by a woman - it's usually always a man who posts that link. lol

That diagram was funny as hell! haha! THanks for that B!

Yup I've been there myself and quite recently; it took a while for me to become aware (thought to myself, "oh shit, I'm in the zone!" ...and not relating to the mental state of productivity). I began stepping back from the situation and realized that it wasn't meant to be a romantic relationship regardless of this and that.

The resolution is to remove yourself from the person and the situation, and get back to working on your goals to be better in life. Eventually, a special gal will come along who will laugh at your bad jokes and actually find them funny. Be Happy and Genuine :thumb:

 

[PlayfulAlex]

I don't know how long you've known him or all the details of your relationship, but if you know this and you keep him around, you are doing him a great disservice. Also, how can you trust him if you know that the nice things he does for you are ultimately just an attempt to try to get back into your pants once again? if it were me, i'd always be suspicious of an ulterior motive and couldn't take things at face value (mind you, I'm a pretty suspicious person). You seem like a nice enough person and I believe you genuinely like him, but what is best for him in the long term is for you to cut him loose. Otherwise, looking at it from a guys perspective, it seems like you are keeping him as some kind of a back up plan.

About 8 years. And I'm not interested in him sexually in the least, so no back-up plan involved here. He knows where I'm at with this, and he still wants to stick around. He is a nice guy, intelligent, classy, a well-employed professional. If it were me, I wouldn't stick around but he does, for whatever reason. Go figure?

 

[Corbin]

Well, I got out of the friends zone once with a girl by whipping myself into great shape and losing 50 pounds. Years after I had initially been given the "let's be friends" speech I met this same girl. She was blown away by my new appearance and this time she asked me out. We went out and she was now clearly interested, but my confidence was soaring at this point and the whole date all I could think was "I can do better than her." And I did.

Now, obviously this is only one scenario. Other girls who I had been interested in when I was overweight still weren't interested in me when I got in shape. But, if you are finding yourself continually falling into the "friends" zone, it might be time to change your life in a way where you vastly improve yourself (in my case it was getting in shape), and you'll care less about getting the "let''s be friends" speech when it happens - that is, if it happens.

 

[hiddencloud]

I'm a "nice guy" and have never had problems with women or the "friend zone". I just don't worry about it at all. Worrying about friend zones and ladders is a trap that people fall into where they have to get one (or many) particular women. It's one of the most obvious examples of treating women as objects instead of people with their own wants, likes, and desires.

You're in the friend zone because you let yourself be there.

 

[Ned Flanders]

Meanwhile, the guy always hope to get into your pants, and he is there for you through thick and thin, which usually means every dumb-ass relationship that you get yourself into, whether it be a biker-dude or whatever. Meanwhile, buddy is there to soothe a broken heart, feed you bon-bons, take you to the movies, or anything to help you mend a broken heart. In the vain attempt to show you that he's worth boning.

Sorry if it's kinda raw...

That pretty much hits the nail on the head. Guys doing this have some sort of weird idea that after a prerequisite amount of time being an emotional dishrag or "girlfriend" the woman in question will suddenly stop banging everyone else and leap at the friend after belatedly realizing how wonderful the friend is. Even weirder is the fact that some guys repeat this behaviour over and over again in spite of dismal results.

 

[thebuttdance continues]

...In the vain attempt to show you that he's worth boning.
Sorry if it's kinda raw...

No. That's perfect. I like it raw and real. Fairy tales and fantasy are for Disney movies.

 

[thebuttdance continues]

And pooning

That's right man :thumb:

Here's a good representation from a disney movie hahahahahahahaha!

 

[Cami Parker]

I loved the beast before he turned back into the prince...
But my #1 Disney Crush is Gaston! Lol
I'm such a Disney nerd.

Dude, if I was that good looking I wouldn’t need Perb now would I?
I’d be out mackin on chix and getin busy Yo!

Now, as to the rather effeminate character you've labelled 'him', I would feel far more competition from this manly man here: