Freya Darling
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OTBn

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Jan 3, 2006
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"The exit strategy is success," Canadian Prime Minister Harper said. "There will be no other conditions under which this government leaves Afghanistan. We will succeed in our security mission and we will see that country moving in irreversible progress to being an economically prosperous and peaceful society. That is the only way this government will leave."

"We’ve said all along that we’re there to finish the job," Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay told Canadian Press on Monday


So… we truly are a colonial importer of Western democracy. We’ll achieve this “success” using conventional forces engaged in conventional war against a non-conventional target fighting in a non-conventional manner. And… along the way, we’ll also ask the troops to do a little civilian policing while they engage in re-development initiatives...

So we set up bases, we travel about the cities on foot patrols and we ride around in highly visible slow moving convoys – all easy targets… and the casualties rise.
 

dirtydan

Banned
Oct 7, 2004
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Hey OTBn!

You don't get it do you? If you have a country that is a western style democracy then anything that government does is all legit. It doesn't matter what they do. Take Israel for example. Yah like any other country they have the right to defend themselves. And if that entails bombing the complete shit out of another country that's largely incapable of defending itself, who gives a shit? It's a democracy doing the bombing so it's ok. ;)

In Afghanistan there is the appearance of a democratically elected government, but in reality these guys are just as big of assholes as the Taliban. Are they converts of the infalliable and omnipetent methodology of western style democracy? Yup. While claiming everything is the fault of the Taliban msot of these Afghani politicians are the same goddamn bunch of scumbags that drove the country deeper into civil war after the Soviets left back in the late 1980's. The same crimes they accuse the Taliban of is all the same shit they committed in fighting against the Mujahadeed or the Taliban. But now they have been elected, then hey, it's all ok! A democratic mandate is like having an immunity card.

Also I got to wonder about the relations between the various multi-national troops in Afghanistan. While the Canadians and a few others do venture out the relatively secure confines of their bases at pretty much anytime night or day, there are other troops that don't. Be that because they are ordered to stay or go out during the day in armored vehicles thanks to their field commanders or their respective national governments. So if you got Canadians who took some two dozen KIA's in the last few months looking at some other troops that largely stay on base you got to wonder how good they get along?
 

Ilovethemall

Banned
Jul 12, 2005
799
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3rd rock from the sun
that's right

...yeah it's bad we are in Afghanistan, cuz we wouldn't want schools, hospitals, roads and clean water for those people there....no, that would be bad.

It makes me sick how narrow minded we have become - so many Canadians stand for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - you speak about peace and freedom and yet we must remain hands off anywhere there is the risk of a casualty. People in the Forces, joined knowing the risks - give them a worthy mission and they will accomplish it - everyone I have talked to in the Forces is proud to be there. So piss off.
 

LonelyGhost

Telefunkin
Apr 26, 2004
3,943
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Ilovethemall said:
...yeah it's bad we are in Afghanistan, cuz we wouldn't want schools, hospitals, roads and clean water for those people there....no, that would be bad.

It makes me sick how narrow minded we have become - so many Canadians stand for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - you speak about peace and freedom and yet we must remain hands off anywhere there is the risk of a casualty. People in the Forces, joined knowing the risks - give them a worthy mission and they will accomplish it - everyone I have talked to in the Forces is proud to be there. So piss off.
I don't think we should be in Afghanistan, particularly since we were not 'invited'
to build roads, schools or hospital and yet have sent armed troops to impose peace
through violence.

not one Nation has had success in Afghanistan, starting with the French, the Soviets/Russians, Americans and now Canadians.

to say that we bring 'stability' to this Nation is a joke: we brought a war
and they are better at it than we will ever be ... and it costs us more
troops every day to learn that lesson.

and if you are the 'patriot' you say you are, piss off and join the Forces
yourself ...

:mad:
 

HeMadeMeDoIt

New member
Feb 12, 2004
2,036
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LonelyGhost said:
I don't think we should be in Afghanistan, particularly since we were not 'invited'
to build roads, schools or hospital and yet have sent armed troops to impose peace
through violence.

not one Nation has had success in Afghanistan, starting with the French, the Soviets/Russians, Americans and now Canadians.

to say that we bring 'stability' to this Nation is a joke: we brought a war
and they are better at it than we will ever be ... and it costs us more
troops every day to learn that lesson.

and if you are the 'patriot' you say you are, piss off and join the Forces
yourself ...

:mad:
Who does the invite have to come from? the country's ruler or the Taliban?

To the best of my knowledge the country's elected government does want us there whether it is to maintain their legitimate rule or to build schools and hospitals.
 

Ilovethemall

Banned
Jul 12, 2005
799
0
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3rd rock from the sun
Hey jackass

First off, asshole, I have served, so stuff that li'l argument right up your pipe. Second I did volunteer work in Africa, and let me just say, the only reason there was peace was due to U.N. forces and the threat of violence. So get down off your high horse and stick it's dick in your mouth.

Perhaps if we had asked nicely the taliban would have invited us to build schools, of course, they would be small since the women are not allowed an education.

Nobody said the job would be an easy one - again, is that why we avoid it? Perhaps the Bahamas need help and we should go there. It is a tough job, it is what we sign(ed) up for. The soldiers there are making a difference, they know it - so fuck you for suggesting otherwise.
 

LonelyGhost

Telefunkin
Apr 26, 2004
3,943
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Ilovethemall said:
First off, asshole, I have served, so stuff that li'l argument right up your pipe. Second I did volunteer work in Africa, and let me just say, the only reason there was peace was due to U.N. forces and the threat of violence. So get down off your high horse and stick it's dick in your mouth.

Perhaps if we had asked nicely the taliban would have invited us to build schools, of course, they would be small since the women are not allowed an education.

Nobody said the job would be an easy one - again, is that why we avoid it? Perhaps the Bahamas need help and we should go there. It is a tough job, it is what we sign(ed) up for. The soldiers there are making a difference, they know it - so fuck you for suggesting otherwise.
if that's the 'peace-keeping' attitude you took to Afghanistan, no wonder
the place is fucked up.
 

Ilovethemall

Banned
Jul 12, 2005
799
0
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3rd rock from the sun
please

Right, because I tee off on an asshole like you means that this was the attitude I had overseas? I didn't think even you were that pathetic.

You just crawl back into whatever corner of the world makes you feel safe and warm and be glad someone keeps it that way for you.

Goodlube, I hear what you are saying and there is an argument to be made for nuking the whole place....but once you have seen one kid with a smile on his/her face because of your efforts, it is worthwhile.
 

LonelyGhost

Telefunkin
Apr 26, 2004
3,943
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Ilovethemall said:
You just crawl back into whatever corner of the world makes you feel safe and warm and be glad someone keeps it that way for you.
what keeps the world safe and warm is the right to question the motives
and tactics of our government ...

if you don't like what you hear/read then you have a right to your own
form of dissent ...

but its the fact that you prefer we all goose-step in silent consent to
the invasion of another country, whether its a dictator or a democracy,
is a concern.
 

JustAGuy

New member
Jul 4, 2004
1,057
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Manitoba
Afghanistan, the world's number one supplier of opium, had its biggest poppy crop in history this year. Bringing "democracy" to those folks has made a difference and don't anyone say it hasn't!! Who knows what those people might be capable of achieving four years down the road and we Canadians will be able to puff out our chests in pride and know we helped bring the country the stability that made it all possible.

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v06/n1191/a01.html?182
 

Ilovethemall

Banned
Jul 12, 2005
799
0
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3rd rock from the sun
tell me this ghost boy

At what point do you liberal "let's all talk about it" and hug people actually support invading another country to try and put it right?

Would you support an invasion in an African country to try and help the people being slaughtered as a result of tribal warfare? Or to put down the rebels like the junjaweed? Or because the country is fucked up and has always been like that - it should be left alone?

I did the volunteer thing over there and I wish we had an army capable of helping those people....or that they had oil and the US would do it. Ever seen a kid with a freshly macheted arm? Is that worth an invasion?
 

Rain Man

10962 Beachcrest Street
Oct 24, 2005
218
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dirtydan said:
You don't get it do you?
Any chance to zing the Israelis and DD will be there. I have a great idea. Let's send DD and OTBn over there and they can show us how it is done.

Oh, right, they don't have any actual ideas but ask them to slag something and they are first in line. Write any NDP resoultions lately?

LonelyGhost said:
I don't think we should be in Afghanistan, particularly since we were not 'invited'
You just might be wrong there LG or actually you are. Maybe Afghanistan was better under the Taliban?

LonelyGhost said:
to impose peace through violence.
May be if we just ask nicely.........pretty please

LonelyGhost said:
not one Nation has had success in Afghanistan, starting with the French, the Soviets/Russians, Americans and now Canadians..
That is a pretty thin connection LG. You aren't really comparing the Soviet invasion to now are you? And by the way, the Americans are still there

LonelyGhost said:
and if you are the 'patriot' you say you are, piss off and join the Forces yourself ... ..
I also have been there, done that. I take it you haven't.
 

LonelyGhost

Telefunkin
Apr 26, 2004
3,943
0
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Ilovethemall said:
At what point do you liberal "let's all talk about it" and hug people actually support invading another country to try and put it right?

Would you support an invasion in an African country to try and help the people being slaughtered as a result of tribal warfare? Or to put down the rebels like the junjaweed? Or because the country is fucked up and has always been like that - it should be left alone?

I did the volunteer thing over there and I wish we had an army capable of helping those people....or that they had oil and the US would do it. Ever seen a kid with a freshly macheted arm? Is that worth an invasion?
1. the right to criticize government actions is the backbone of a democracy ... and how 'fucked up' does a country have to be to invade it? According to the US, Canada is 'pretty fucked up' (including machete attacks) and is the genocide of Aboriginals (sure, happened long ago but the effects are still there) a good enough reason? And we do have oil!

2. The reason the 'tribes' are slaughtering each other is because the Brits went in and designated one 'tribe' the favorite and when the Brits pulled out the other tribes decided that they wanted power now and so the slaughter began ... same with the Brits actions in Isreal/Palestine, same with the Brits in India/Pakistan, and the Brits in Ireland, and oh yeah, the Brits in Canada.

3. And, BTW, when you finish you little rant of righteous indignation, look at anyone of my posts on the military: I am ALWAYS against war, but ALWAYS 100% in support of the people who go over there and do their jobs!

My rant is against the govt, not the people who serve in the military.
 

OTBn

New member
Jan 3, 2006
572
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mall guy - there were no anti-supporting the troop sentiments expressed in this thread… try another tact :rolleyes:

dirtydan said:
. And if that entails bombing the complete shit out of another country that's largely incapable of defending itself, who gives a shit? It's a democracy doing the bombing so it's ok.


dirtydan, waddya mean? :D Make no mistake - the reinvented “after-the-cold-war” NATO resides in Afghanistan at the behest of the U.S. government. To trumpet that Harmid Karzai has asked for Canada’s intervention is laughable given he was championed and positioned into heading the Afghan government by the U.S.

Even if we had the right, the authority, the mandate (of which we have none), we’ll attempt to spread our western interpretations with a few thousand troops with limited support and financing, across an ethnic diverse populace scattered far and wide throughout a most inhospitable geography. In spite of the UN/ISAF/NATO efforts to-date, we’ve seen a resurgence of the Taliban, more firmly entrenched warlords, and as mentioned, the largest ever yields of cultivated opium.

But what’s our Afghan mission, the goal? In Afghanistan, will we see the same farcical U.S. engineered elections as in Iraq, the same U.S. written transitional laws as in Iraq and the same U.S. influenced interim constitution as in Iraq - and will that interim constitution contain language which precludes Afghanistan from becoming an Islamic Republic, as it did in Iraq? And when the Afghan people fail to elect that secular government, when they instead head down that theocracy path, will we feel smug and justified in our efforts in bringing them “democracy”… oops!

Ya, ya – stay the course… we sure ain’t cut and runners! (feel free to add other Bush talking points)
 

FuZzYknUckLeS

Monkey Abuser
May 12, 2005
2,223
0
0
Schmocation
Buncha Feckin' Tardz

Does nobody get it?
We are not in Afghanistan to give the Afghan people a better place to live. It goes further than that. Much further. If the mission we are currently serving there fails and the country spirals back into the lawlessness it experienced under Taliban rule, it will serve as a training ground and safe haven for a whole new generation of Arab extremist groups, with 10s of millions of $ in opium revenues to fund their cause.
It's as simple as that.

That said, I still firmly believe that the Yanks should be there in our place, finishing what they started. When did NATO become their bitch?
 

dirtydan

Banned
Oct 7, 2004
1,061
0
0
53
Ilovethemall said:
...yeah it's bad we are in Afghanistan, cuz we wouldn't want schools, hospitals, roads and clean water for those people there....no, that would be bad.

It makes me sick how narrow minded we have become - so many Canadians stand for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - you speak about peace and freedom and yet we must remain hands off anywhere there is the risk of a casualty. People in the Forces, joined knowing the risks - give them a worthy mission and they will accomplish it - everyone I have talked to in the Forces is proud to be there. So piss off.

What's the reason Canada is in Afghanistan? :rolleyes:
 

dirtydan

Banned
Oct 7, 2004
1,061
0
0
53
Ilovethemall said:
First off, asshole, I have served, so stuff that li'l argument right up your pipe.
An your point is? Simply because you claimed you served, presumably in the Canadian Forces, doesn't mean that you are correct in what you say.

Ilovethemall said:
Second I did volunteer work in Africa, and let me just say, the only reason there was peace was due to U.N. forces and the threat of violence. So get down off your high horse and stick it's dick in your mouth.
Where in Africa? It's a pretty big continent.

Ilovethemall said:
Perhaps if we had asked nicely the taliban would have invited us to build schools, of course, they would be small since the women are not allowed an education.
And this is why Canada has troops in Afghanistan, to allow women to get an education?

Ilovethemall said:
Nobody said the job would be an easy one - again, is that why we avoid it? Perhaps the Bahamas need help and we should go there. It is a tough job, it is what we sign(ed) up for. The soldiers there are making a difference, they know it - so fuck you for suggesting otherwise.
Seems to me you have anger management issues. Maybe it's from all that serving you did.

:rolleyes:
 

dirtydan

Banned
Oct 7, 2004
1,061
0
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Rain Man said:
Any chance to zing the Israelis and DD will be there. I have a great idea. Let's send DD and OTBn over there and they can show us how it is done.

Oh, right, they don't have any actual ideas but ask them to slag something and they are first in line. Write any NDP resoultions lately?
Are you coming along?

Speaking of slagging, look around and see the reality. That being pretty much anything somebody post here usually gets slagged. Sometimes from people with conservative views, sometimes from people with progressive views.
 

dirtydan

Banned
Oct 7, 2004
1,061
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JustAGuy said:
Afghanistan, the world's number one supplier of opium, had its biggest poppy crop in history this year. Bringing "democracy" to those folks has made a difference and don't anyone say it hasn't!! Who knows what those people might be capable of achieving four years down the road and we Canadians will be able to puff out our chests in pride and know we helped bring the country the stability that made it all possible.

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v06/n1191/a01.html?182

Taliban in power: opium crops largely wiped out.

Mujahadeed/Northern Alliance out of power: grew opium to finance its war against the Taliban.

Taliban out of power: growing as much opium as it can.

Mujahadeed/Northern Alliance in power: doing largely bugger all to stop the growing of opium.

Is this was Canada is fighting for?
 

OTBn

New member
Jan 3, 2006
572
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FuZzYknUckLeS said:
Buncha Feckin' Tardz... If the mission we are currently serving there fails and the country spirals back into the lawlessness it experienced under Taliban rule, it will serve as a training ground and safe haven for a whole new generation of Arab extremist groups, with 10s of millions of $ in opium revenues to fund their cause.
It's as simple as that.


Fuzzy, c'mon - it's a LOW Tardz alert! uhhh, extrapolated from the best available (U.S.) data, based on the number of mortalities in each category throughout the 11-year period spanning 1995 through 2005...... fighting those crazy 'off the road' drivers over there - so we don't have to fight them over here! :D
 
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