Side effects of new police force in Surrey

JimDandy

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I firmly believe that the end result will be significantly fewer boots on the street (and vehicles) when the new municipal police force replaces the RCMP in Surrey.

The idiots in Surrey that voted in this mayor are definitely going to regret it when all is said and done. When you consider the initial costs of creating a new force, and the costs associated with senior management that will need to be put in place that the RCMP was providing in Otttawa, etc, even with a significantly larger budget, I beleive they will still have less people doing actual policing.

And so one side effect that I predict is that this means there will be less officiers to enforce non-emergency policing like, for example, harrassing Johns that are picking up SWs. I have a friend that lives in a newer apt. building around 105 and Univeristy in Surrey. She got a good deal on the rent I suspect because of extra traffic caused by the SWs in that general area. I know I see one or more RCMP SUVs patrolling in the area each time I visit her. Again, I don't expect to see that kind of policing from the new force.

So expect Surrey to become the SW capital of Canada. Should be entertaining to watch at the very least.

JD
 

Cock Throppled

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Oct 1, 2003
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Pure speculation.

The RCMP are not bothering with minor things now. They won't even come out for B & E's.

Priority will still be given to problem areas, and Surrey Centre is a problem area.

The RCMP model is archaic, and not suited for urban centres. Their system of transfers takes officers out of commission just when they've started getting integrated in the community, and figuring out who the bad guys are and developing trust with contacts.

The Delta/New Westminster/Vancouver model will be the future, and resources will be shared.

The biggest mistake Surrey has made is not naming an interim Police Chief, who could hire the senior officers he/she needs to build a new force.
 

islander1-1

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Oct 9, 2015
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I not knowing how police forces budget and operate... but my guess will side with JimDandy... The RCMP Have the management structure built in at a nationally shared cost. But this comes with an attitude that is detached from local issues. Surreys big problems is not really the SWs and the Street Walkers.... Its the drugs and gangs and guns. I think Surrey is rated as #1 Gang war territory... Correct me if I am wrong... So on one hand me thinks The RCMP is the best resource we have for well trained and educated officers to deal with these violent people. That being said... having a local force might be able to focus better on the local issues by knowing the local community better.. in either case I dont see any change in the concern for the Sex trade being any different, if the force is changed.
 

JimDandy

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Pure speculation.

The RCMP are not bothering with minor things now. They won't even come out for B & E's.

Priority will still be given to problem areas, and Surrey Centre is a problem area.

The RCMP model is archaic, and not suited for urban centres. Their system of transfers takes officers out of commission just when they've started getting integrated in the community, and figuring out who the bad guys are and developing trust with contacts.

The Delta/New Westminster/Vancouver model will be the future, and resources will be shared.

The biggest mistake Surrey has made is not naming an interim Police Chief, who could hire the senior officers he/she needs to build a new force.
Time will tell who is correct here. All I know is that presently there is lots of LE presence in 105 & University area. A john would have to be very stupid or very desperate to try to pick up a SW in that area. We will see if that is still the case in a few years time.

And btw, do Vancouver police come out for B & E's ? I suspect not.

JD
 

JimDandy

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I not knowing how police forces budget and operate... but my guess will side with JimDandy... Surreys big problems is not really the SWs and the Street Walkers....
Thanks for siding with me. But I should note that "SW" is an abbreviation for "Street Walkers" as far as I know, so I believe you are being redundant :)

JD
 

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J.D...with respect. I'm in agreement with C.P on this. Not going into a " book writing style " explanation but, Surrey's main issue is street gang violence......gun shootings. S.W is not an issue when you watch and read local media news.

I'm quite sure that if Surrey residents had a chose of resolving S.W or gang shooting in the streets. If I was a gambling man, I'm sure they would chose gang(s) shooting being eliminated.

Just saying.



Pure speculation.

The RCMP are not bothering with minor things now. They won't even come out for B & E's.

Priority will still be given to problem areas, and Surrey Centre is a problem area.

The RCMP model is archaic, and not suited for urban centres. Their system of transfers takes officers out of commission just when they've started getting integrated in the community, and figuring out who the bad guys are and developing trust with contacts.

The Delta/New Westminster/Vancouver model will be the future, and resources will be shared.

The biggest mistake Surrey has made is not naming an interim Police Chief, who could hire the senior officers he/she needs to build a new force.
 

JimDandy

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May 17, 2004
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J.D...with respect. I'm in agreement with C.P on this. Not going into a " book writing style " explanation but, Surrey's main issue is street gang violence......gun shootings. S.W is not an issue when you watch and read local media news.

I'm quite sure that if Surrey residents had a chose of resolving S.W or gang shooting in the streets. If I was a gambling man, I'm sure they would chose gang(s) shooting being eliminated.

Just saying.
With respect, your arguement supports my arguement! You are essentially saying that the new police force will be going after gang(s) and not SW's. That is exactly what I am saying. And therefore the new police force will leave the SWs and johns alone and there will be many more SWs working in Surrey (and johns chasing after them), which was my initial prediction.

JD
 

licks2nite

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Back in the '50s and '60s Surrey was the place folks in Vancouver fled to pay less property tax. Virtually no sidewalks except for a few blocks along a modest commercial strip in Whalley and insignificant street lighting everywhere. Insignificant traffic allowed commuters to go into Vancouver even before Port Mann Bridge completion for Canadian centennial. Federal Canada opened a floodgate of immigration. The rest is history. Old simple street planning turned Surrey into a lower middle class outback. Increased lighting standards sprouted up on sidewalks that had to be built close to roadways that inconveniently sprayed dirty rain on pedestrians and later on cyclists. You get the idea. The whole Surrey experience is a built-in inconvenience.
 

jgg

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The sex business is an easy target for LE to do little and get media exposure showing they are doing something, especially when compared to success in gang related crime.

I would be concerned things may get worse for SWs and johns.
 

JimDandy

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The sex business is an easy target for LE to do little and get media exposure showing they are doing something, especially when compared to success in gang related crime.

I would be concerned things may get worse for SWs and johns.
You make a good point. And it is much safer too. Don't have to worry too much that a rookie cop will get shot by a SW or a john lol. I guess time will tell :)

JD
 

badbadboy

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Nov 2, 2006
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Ottawa negotiates the contracts with all BC municipalities. It’s underfunded and understaffed, possibly the fault of the municipalities because they want bottom dollar and the net result is citizens are unhappy with crime rates rising.

North Van has the same complaints about staffing levels. The last mayor said he wanted to move to local police force. City of North Van didn’t support those initiatives and the costs of going alone were cost prohibitive so it’s still unchanged.

Keep in mind RCMP officers do not make the same $ as local police forces. I’d bet there will be a bit of an exodus to the new police force should it become a reality.
 

rlock

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May 20, 2015
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I firmly believe that the end result will be significantly fewer boots on the street (and vehicles) when the new municipal police force replaces the RCMP in Surrey.

The idiots in Surrey that voted in this mayor are definitely going to regret it when all is said and done. When you consider the initial costs of creating a new force, and the costs associated with senior management that will need to be put in place that the RCMP was providing in Otttawa, etc, even with a significantly larger budget, I beleive they will still have less people doing actual policing.

JD

The RCMP model is archaic, and not suited for urban centres. Their system of transfers takes officers out of commission just when they've started getting integrated in the community, and figuring out who the bad guys are and developing trust with contacts.

The Delta/New Westminster/Vancouver model will be the future, and resources will be shared.

The biggest mistake Surrey has made is not naming an interim Police Chief, who could hire the senior officers he/she needs to build a new force.


I think since Delta has its own force, the logical thing to do would have been just to merge Surrey's force with that one - or put another way, to use exactly the same systems, just expand them like 5x to include Surrey.



Ottawa negotiates the contracts with all BC municipalities. It’s underfunded and understaffed, possibly the fault of the municipalities because they want bottom dollar and the net result is citizens are unhappy with crime rates rising.

North Van has the same complaints about staffing levels. The last mayor said he wanted to move to local police force. City of North Van didn’t support those initiatives and the costs of going alone were cost prohibitive so it’s still unchanged.

Keep in mind RCMP officers do not make the same $ as local police forces. I’d bet there will be a bit of an exodus to the new police force should it become a reality.

North Van's got a different problem: There's North Van City and North Van District, their separate existence being a foolish fiction that their city councils like to maintain, but they share the same RCMP.

The cost thing you point out is perhaps why the RCMP still does local street policing. Personally, I think I don't think McCallum's been handling it well, but the idea of replacing the RCMP with a more local force makes some sense.

The problem with it is the size: there should be one police force for Metro Vancouver, answering to the provincial government, or some sort of policing council. We have Translink, so why not have a regional MVPD force ? Easier to imagine that than Surrey by itself. The obstacle is mainly the pols haggling over the funding.

It makes sense in terms of cost, of training, of officers' attitudes to the community, and all that operational unity they need to deal with the big crimes like the gang wars.

The RCMP has a lot of centralized resources, but as you can see their priorities get skewed by the higher-ups, and some very big cases have been botched.
 
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Demon666

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Jan 29, 2017
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The cost to maintain local police force cost more as well. Currently Ottawa(federal government) pays 10% of policing for Surrey Rcmp.
Also the average salary of Vancouver police or any municipal police force is a lot higher than Rcmp.
Given the same budget, there will be less officers on the force if switch from Rcmp to Surrey police.
 

islander1-1

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Oct 9, 2015
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Southern Vancouver Island
Thanks for siding with me. But I should note that "SW" is an abbreviation for "Street Walkers" as far as I know, so I believe you are being redundant :)

JD
In my book. Is is an anacronym for both... Street Walker, and Sex Worker. Also. street worker and so many more. Urban Dictionary is your fiend.
 

islander1-1

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Oct 9, 2015
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Southern Vancouver Island
Question for those that live in Surrey... does the current RCMP look after local bylaws?? Ie. Parking on the streets. If not who does. Will the new Surrey police force be required to do this. Where I live, RCMP, we have parking by laws. But only one bylaw officer, who works 9 to 4 weekdays. And covers mostly dog catcher and land use infractions like building too close to the property line. The locals just park their cars anywhere they like.
 

badbadboy

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Nov 2, 2006
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I think since Delta has its own force, the logical thing to do would have been just to merge Surrey's force with that one - or put another way, to use exactly the same systems, just expand them like 5x to include Surrey.






North Van's got a different problem: There's North Van City and North Van District, their separate existence being a foolish fiction that their city councils like to maintain, but they share the same RCMP.

The cost thing you point out is perhaps why the RCMP still does local street policing. Personally, I think


I don't think McCallum's been handling it well, but the idea of replacing the RCMP with a more local force makes some sense.

The problem with it is the size: there should be one police force for Metro Vancouver, answering to the provincial government, or some sort of policing council. We have Translink, so why not have a regional MVPD force ? Easier to imagine that than Surrey by itself. The obstacle is mainly the pols haggling over the funding.

It makes sense in terms of cost, of training, of officers' attitudes to the community, and all that operational unity they need to deal with the big crimes like the gang wars.

The RCMP has a lot of centralized resources, but as you can see their priorities get skewed by the higher-ups, and some very big cases have been botched.
What you’re describing is a BC version of the OPP and SQ in Ontario and Quebec. It’s been a while since a made in BC solution has been put forward. It has a lot of merits and it takes control of the cross jurisdictions between the municipalities in the GVRD.

I can’t recall the last time it was brought up with the BC Govt and can only assume it didn’t get any traction because of cost and the respective city councils ‘losing control’ of their law enforcement.

I think it’s a good possible solution to replacing the RCMP. Ontario and Quebec have made it work for decades.
 

poorboyv6

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Sep 7, 2006
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Vancouver Police Constable pay after 4 years. $100,220 (Same as an RCMP Sergeant, which is 2 ranks higher)

Delta Police Constable pay after 4 years. $101,733 ($116,992 for a 20 year Constable, and the same as a first year RCMP Inspector, which is a Commissioned Officer and 4 ranks higher)

RCMP Constable pay after 4 years. $86,110

So for a force of say 600 officers, you'll be paying almost $8.5 million a year more, assuming not a single one works any overtime or statutory holidays and that they're all Constables. Someone should remember that the Federal government pays a lower overtime rate than the municipal forces.

As someone else pointed out, the Feds also pick up 10% of the policing cost. Don't forget that RCMP spends less to equip an officer than VPD or Delta in the order of about $5,000 per street officer because the RCMP pools items and shares them between officers, or just doesn't equip them, while municipal forces have the equipment as individual issue.

They Mayor is an idiot. He initially said he would increase the number of officers on the road if they voted him in and went municipal. Now he's saying that he can do it with less officers because somehow a unionized force will be more efficient.

So for those who think Surrey will have more boots on the ground and a lower crime rate with a local force with not tax increases according to the Mayor, keep dreaming.

Richmond looked into the cost of switching a couple of years ago, and determined it wasn't worth it.
 
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JimDandy

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May 17, 2004
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Vancouver Police Constable pay after 4 years. $100,220 (Same as an RCMP Sergeant, which is 2 ranks higher)

Delta Police Constable pay after 4 years. $101,733 ($116,992 for a 20 year Constable, and the same as a first year RCMP Inspector, which is a Commissioned Officer and 4 ranks higher)

RCMP Constable pay after 4 years. $86,110

So for a force of say 600 officers, you'll be paying almost $8.5 million a year more, assuming not a single one works any overtime or statutory holidays and that they're all Constables. Someone should remember that the Federal government pays a lower overtime rate than the municipal forces.

As someone else pointed out, the Feds also pick up 10% of the policing cost. Don't forget that RCMP spends less to equip an officer than VPD or Delta in the order of about $5,000 per street officer because the RCMP pools items and shares them between officers, or just doesn't equip them, while municipal forces have the equipment as individual issue.

They Mayor is an idiot. He initially said he would increase the number of officers on the road if they voted him in and went municipal. Now he's saying that he can do it with less officers because somehow a unionized force will be more efficient.

So for those who think Surrey will have more boots on the ground and a lower crime rate with a local force with not tax increases according to the Mayor, keep dreaming.

Richmond looked into the cost of switching a couple of years ago, and determined it wasn't worth it.
What you say makes a lot of sense. Which brings me back to my original prediction that less boots on the ground means less enforcement of John's and SWs.

JD
 

Cock Throppled

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Oct 1, 2003
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Upstairs
What you say makes a lot of sense. Which brings me back to my original prediction that less boots on the ground means less enforcement of John's and SWs.

JD
Nothing will change.

There is NO priority to enforce prostitution laws now.

Police will (and should) respond to minors, trafficking, pimping or coercion, and that will continue.

105th Ave always has SW's, and they are only checked by police to ensure they are safe.
 

JimDandy

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May 17, 2004
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Nothing will change.

There is NO priority to enforce prostitution laws now.

Police will (and should) respond to minors, trafficking, pimping or coercion, and that will continue.

105th Ave always has SW's, and they are only checked by police to ensure they are safe.
I have it from a reliable source that the RCMP in their large white SUVs regularly stop johns who they believe are crusing for the purpose of viewing the SWs or who that they catch talking to a SW. It is this policing that I suggest may be dropped when the policing manpower becomes more limited.

JD
 
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