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Speciesism (Certain lives being deemed more worthy than the other)

storm rider

Banned
Dec 6, 2008
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Calgary
I try to stay away from genetically modified foods the best I can, but if the studies show they are beneficial to those in 3rd world countries, I won't protest.

Speaking of genetic modification, what is your opinion on the modification of human DNA?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2016/08/human-gene-editing-pro-con-opinions/
That is a huge can of worms with regards to your question/response.There are so many factors and tangeants of thought it is difficult to take them to mind.First of course there is the Political point of view and then there is the view of the proverbial "proles".

Personally I am a small c Conservative.The idea of reproductive rights in my opinion is the choice of the woman.It is her body and her choice.No woman should ever be shamed/abused/chastised or impugned in any way by the insults/words of people who have arbitrarily decided that other people must live within the confines of their moral compass.

Not a fan of genetic manipulation either.

SR
 

licks2nite

Active member
Nov 30, 2006
657
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I refuse to date vegans. I’m serious. Before I go out with a man, I bring up the subject of veganism.
Begs the question, of course. How can you get whole protein eating meat/dairy/eggs from farm animals that are strictly grain fed?
 

jgg

In the air again.
Apr 14, 2015
2,454
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Begs the question, of course. How can you get whole protein eating meat/dairy/eggs from farm animals that are strictly grain fed?
??? You need to explain this.
 

clu

Active member
Oct 3, 2010
1,282
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Vancouver
Begs the question, of course. How can you get whole protein eating meat/dairy/eggs from farm animals that are strictly grain fed?
Not all animals (and metabolisms) are created equal. The digestive tracks of herbivores are rather different. For example, we only have the one stomach. Herbivores can synthesise the proteins they need, but it's inefficient. Carnivores let the herbivores do all the heavy lifting of protein synthesis and then just eat the result by eating the herbivores. We're nominally omnivores, but that just means we can get by without meat, not that we have all the autonomous metabolic function of herbivores.

Side note: the phrase "begs the question" has been horribly abused to the point it no longer means the same thing, something like what's happening to "literally." In its original meaning to say something "begs the question" was roughly equivalent to saying it was circular logic.
 

licks2nite

Active member
Nov 30, 2006
657
79
28
Not all animals (and metabolisms) are created equal. The digestive tracks of herbivores are rather different. For example, we only have the one stomach. Herbivores can synthesise the proteins they need, but it's inefficient. Carnivores let the herbivores do all the heavy lifting of protein synthesis and then just eat the result by eating the herbivores. We're nominally omnivores, but that just means we can get by without meat, not that we have all the autonomous metabolic function of herbivores.

Side note: the phrase "begs the question" has been horribly abused to the point it no longer means the same thing, something like what's happening to "literally." In its original meaning to say something "begs the question" was roughly equivalent to saying it was circular logic.
Thanks for that enlightenment. Should have correctly guessed that it had to be something along the line of herbivores synthesizing all the necessary 20 amino acids to build animal protein from plant matter. Poisonous snakes and insects seem to go one better to make a 21st and a 22nd amino acid incorporated in venom.

Google says of "beg the question":
1.(of a fact or action) raise a question or point that has not been dealt with; invite an obvious question.
2.assume the truth of an argument or proposition to be proved, without arguing it.

Google also goes onto say about herbivores:
Cows and other herbivores cannot synthesize all the amino acids they need, meaning they have to be consumed through the diet. ... All animals have to get protein or amino acids through the diet, but they just have different methods to satisfy their metabolic requirements.

And that begs a question once again: Does anybody ever really know anything?
 

clu

Active member
Oct 3, 2010
1,282
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38
Vancouver
Google says of "beg the question":
1.(of a fact or action) raise a question or point that has not been dealt with; invite an obvious question.
2.assume the truth of an argument or proposition to be proved, without arguing it.
Yup. #2 is the traditional meaning. #1 is the misinterpretation that usurped it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Google also goes onto say about herbivores:
Cows and other herbivores cannot synthesize all the amino acids they need, meaning they have to be consumed through the diet. ... All animals have to get protein or amino acids through the diet, but they just have different methods to satisfy their metabolic requirements.
Right. Everybody needs to eat. :) It's just that herbivores can synthesise some that carnivores typically can't.
 

licks2nite

Active member
Nov 30, 2006
657
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Yup. #2 is the traditional meaning. #1 is the misinterpretation that usurped it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question



Right. Everybody needs to eat. :) It's just that herbivores can synthesise some that carnivores typically can't.
Google did say, "Cows and other herbivores cannot synthesize all the amino acids they need". Not that I think that Google is the last word in everything but at this point all that I'm certain of here, from what you and Google have said, is that cows and other herbivores either do or don't synthesis all the amino acids they need. Didn't find any literature to clarify. Only that humans synthesis 11 of the 20 amino acids and refer to 9 "essential" amino acids that humans can't synthesis. And that ruminants ferment cellulose to utilize amino acids deep in the cellulose. However, no suggestion that cellulose contains all 20 amino acids.

Did find from Google plant sources that contain essential amino acids:

The 9 Essential Amino Acids:

Sources of Leucine: cheese, soybeans, beef, pork, chicken, pumpkin, seeds, nuts, peas, tuna, seafood, beans, whey protein, plant proteins, etc.
Sources of Isoleucine: soy, meat and fish, dairy and eggs, cashews, almonds, oats, lentils, beans, brown rice, legumes, chia seeds.
Sources of Lysine: eggs, meat, poultry, beans, peas, cheese, chia seeds, spirulina, parsley, avocados, almonds, cashews, whey protein.
Sources of Methionine: meat, fish, cheese, dairy, beans, seeds, chia seeds, brazil nuts, oats, wheat, figs, whole grain rice, beans, legumes, onions, and cacao.

Sources of Phenylalanine: milk and dairy, meat, fish, chicken, eggs, spirulina, seaweed, pumpkin, beans, rice, avocado, almonds, peanuts, quinoa, figs, raisins, leafy greens, most berries, olives, and seeds.

Sources of threonine: lean meat, cheese, nuts, seeds, lentils, watercress and spirulina, pumpkin, leafy greens, hemp seeds, chia seeds, soybeans, almonds, avocados, figs, raisins, and quinoa.

Sources of tryptophan: chocolate, milk, cheese, turkey, red meat, yogurt, eggs, fish, poultry, chickpeas, almonds, sunflower seed, pepitas, spirulina, bananas, and peanuts.

Sources of valine include: cheese, red meat, chicken, pork, nuts, beans, spinach, legumes, broccoli, seeds, chia seeds, whole grains, figs, avocado, apples, blueberries, cranberries, oranges, and apricots.

Sources of Histidine: red meat, cheese, white meat and poultry, seafood, soybeans, beans, legumes, chia seeds, buckwheat, potatoes.
 

clu

Active member
Oct 3, 2010
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Vancouver
Google did say, "Cows and other herbivores cannot synthesize all the amino acids they need". Not that I think that Google is the last word in everything but at this point all that I'm certain of here, from what you and Google have said, is that cows and other herbivores either do or don't synthesis all the amino acids they need. Didn't find any literature to clarify.
If cows could synthesise everything they wouldn't need to eat plants. I think the gist is plants synthesise some things, then herbivore animals eat them and synthesise the rest, and then carnivores eat the herbivores, hence food chain. I don't think there's any contradiction here.
 

licks2nite

Active member
Nov 30, 2006
657
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Didn't want to "sign in" to watch any youtube videos. According to the opening Wickpedia article, speciesism is a form of discrimination based on species membership. For my personal perspective, domestic animals are symbiotic with humans and couldn't survive without humans.

Affording "rights" toward animals the way that humans have rights would have to demand responsibilities of animals. Not sure how anybody is going to demand responsibilities of animals. For humans, it had been said, the only "right" that is worth anything is a right to be left alone. Humans certainly didn't leave the wolf alone when humans selectively bred different wolf traits that created all the different breeds of dogs. For a dog, the dog has a responsibility to be loyal to a master to preserve the symbiosis. The cow has a responsibility to produce milk to preserve the symbiosis. A steer gives up its life like a soldier on a battlefield to preserve the symbiosis of its species. House and barn cats are quite unique in having hardly changed since voluntarily taking up residency with humans. For wild animals such as threatened Giant Panda, Pacific Walrus, Magellanic Penguin, Leatherback Turtle, Mountain Gorilla, Javan Rhinoceros, Orangutan, Sumatran Elephant, Tiger each require the right that humans most overlook for themselves, the right to be left alone.
 

Regan Azazel

Banned
Jul 19, 2016
27
23
18
Google did say, "Cows and other herbivores cannot synthesize all the amino acids they need". Not that I think that Google is the last word in everything but at this point all that I'm certain of here, from what you and Google have said, is that cows and other herbivores either do or don't synthesis all the amino acids they need. Didn't find any literature to clarify. Only that humans synthesis 11 of the 20 amino acids and refer to 9 "essential" amino acids that humans can't synthesis. And that ruminants ferment cellulose to utilize amino acids deep in the cellulose. However, no suggestion that cellulose contains all 20 amino acids.

Did find from Google plant sources that contain essential amino acids:

The 9 Essential Amino Acids:

Sources of Leucine: cheese, soybeans, beef, pork, chicken, pumpkin, seeds, nuts, peas, tuna, seafood, beans, whey protein, plant proteins, etc.
Sources of Isoleucine: soy, meat and fish, dairy and eggs, cashews, almonds, oats, lentils, beans, brown rice, legumes, chia seeds.
Sources of Lysine: eggs, meat, poultry, beans, peas, cheese, chia seeds, spirulina, parsley, avocados, almonds, cashews, whey protein.
Sources of Methionine: meat, fish, cheese, dairy, beans, seeds, chia seeds, brazil nuts, oats, wheat, figs, whole grain rice, beans, legumes, onions, and cacao.

Sources of Phenylalanine: milk and dairy, meat, fish, chicken, eggs, spirulina, seaweed, pumpkin, beans, rice, avocado, almonds, peanuts, quinoa, figs, raisins, leafy greens, most berries, olives, and seeds.

Sources of threonine: lean meat, cheese, nuts, seeds, lentils, watercress and spirulina, pumpkin, leafy greens, hemp seeds, chia seeds, soybeans, almonds, avocados, figs, raisins, and quinoa.

Sources of tryptophan: chocolate, milk, cheese, turkey, red meat, yogurt, eggs, fish, poultry, chickpeas, almonds, sunflower seed, pepitas, spirulina, bananas, and peanuts.

Sources of valine include: cheese, red meat, chicken, pork, nuts, beans, spinach, legumes, broccoli, seeds, chia seeds, whole grains, figs, avocado, apples, blueberries, cranberries, oranges, and apricots.

Sources of Histidine: red meat, cheese, white meat and poultry, seafood, soybeans, beans, legumes, chia seeds, buckwheat, potatoes.
Looks like we can get all essential amino acids from plants while avoiding unnecessary cholesterol, saturated fat and the inflammatory byproducts that come from metabolising non-essential amino acids ( all of which our body can also synthesize effectively given, you have a properly planned diet)

We should be more worried about fiber deficiency than a protein deficiency in civilized society.

Nutritionfacts.org

Canadafoodguide.org

-WFPB nutrition student
 

Miss Hunter

ProSwitch
Supporting Member
Aug 30, 2013
1,812
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Looks like we can get all essential amino acids from plants while avoiding unnecessary cholesterol, saturated fat and the inflammatory byproducts that come from metabolising non-essential amino acids ( all of which our body can also synthesize effectively given, you have a properly planned diet)

We should be more worried about fiber deficiency than a protein deficiency in civilized society.

Nutritionfacts.org

Canadafoodguide.org

-WFPB nutrition student
What is your opinion on the ketogenic diet?
 

Regan Azazel

Banned
Jul 19, 2016
27
23
18
What is your opinion on the ketogenic diet?
Ah the keto diet aka rehashed atkins diet. My peers recommend not to do it for longer than 5 days. The lowered pH from digesting such a high amount of proteins and fats can cause liver and kidney damage. A diet high in animal proteins can also cause HDL cholesterol to build up to unsafe levels. Ketosis is your body going into survival mode; it's great for quick weight loss but detrimental to your long term health. Check your urinary PH or blood ketones along with your LDL/HDL levels to make sure you're not causing any permanent damage if, you choose to continue with such an extreme diet. Carbs are not the enemy; processed foods are the cause of many ailments.

A good balance of compex carbohydrates and plant-based protein is necessary for longevity.

Source-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6339822/.

Check out figure 1.
 
Last edited:

sybian

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2014
3,404
735
113
Kamloops B.C.
Ah the keto diet aka rehashed atkins diet. My peers recommend not to do it for longer than 5 days. The heightened pH from digesting such a high amount of proteins and fats can cause liver and kidney damage. A diet high in animal proteins can also cause HDL cholesterol to build up to unsafe levels. Ketosis is your body going into survival mode; it's great for quick weight loss but detrimental to your long term health. Check your urinary PH or blood ketones along with your LDL/HDL levels to make sure you're not causing any permanent damage if, you choose to continue with such an extreme diet. Carbs are not the enemy; processed foods are the cause of many ailments.

A good balance of compex carbohydrates and plant-based protein is necessary for longevity.

Source-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6339822/.

Check out figure 1.
I'd have to agree with your comment on putting your body into survival mode...there are many times I will eat only one meal a day, and work my tail off....not healthy.
Avoiding processed foods is also very good advice....except Pizza, it doesn't count in the " World According To Sy Handbook"
 
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