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Thread: What evil anti-sex society is killing these girls?

  1. #1
    wolf in sheep's clothing
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    What evil anti-sex society is killing these girls?

    As a man whose fate is deeply, lovingly, tied to women's lives, I find myself emotionally affected by the suicide of several girls in the bloom of their teenage years.

    Amanda Todd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Amanda_Todd

    Rehtaeh Parsons http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...cide-rape.html

    Audrie Pott http://abcnews.go.com/US/audrie-pott...ry?id=18943024

    What makes these girls think "my life is ruined" because sexy photos and bawdry rumors circulate about them in their schools and on the web?

    A chorus of outraged voices now calls for harsh punishment for the boys involved in sexually assaulting these girls and then bullying them with photos and rumors.

    Now I'm all in favor of spitroasting the guilty. But who is really guilty here? I know, when I was a teenage boy—with hormones raging 10 times worse than now—I didn't have the wisdom or insight of a garden slug.

    What really made these girls kill themselves, I believe, is a pervasive sex-negative social ethos that shames these girls for having been involved in consensual or non-consensual teenage sex or publicly exposing certain parts of their anatomy.

    This attitude of making a big deal out of sexual matters on the part of trusted adults totally makes these girls lose perspective and breaks their hearts—when all the ruckus surrounding these events would soon disappear into the mists of time, and they could have lived out their lives just like anyone else.

    Parents and bystanders are calling for the heads of the teenage male "perpetrators" to roll. Is that really the solution?
    Leave them better than you find them.

  2. #2
    i think we're on the wrong track.

    these suicides get a lot of attention in the media due to the lurid sexual nature of the original offence. however, the actual rape incident does not seem to provide the motivation to suicide, its the cyber-bullying after the fact that is the issue. indeed, these girls killed themselves years after the rape.

    the ability to record then circulate images on the internet, where strangers soon get hold of them, is new. the resulting cyber onslaught is unending. and cruel: anonymity in the hands of slug-brained teenagers. it cycles on and on and must seem to the girl (also of teenaged limited foresight) that it will never end.

    these assault episodes occurred in my high school too, years ago, but the fallout was localized and eventually extinguished. the girls did go on with their lives. no one remembers now.

    bullied boys act out and shoot up the school; bullied girls internalize and suicide. we don't hear about the boy who was bullied because he peed his pants or some other embarrassment, we only hear - ad nauseam - of the most salacious cases.

  3. #3
    It's the fact the pictures never fully go away. But in some of these stories, the girls actually do get raped. Its hard to imagine dealing with both being sexually assaulted and knowing the pictures are out there at the same time. Not to mention these girls are all in high school. It's shocking some of these boys were "friends".

    Back in my day, if anything like this happened dudes would get stabbed. Hell, I met a guy who was bragging about how terrible he was to Amanda Todd and I knocked him right the hell out. The guy thought he could take me, Canadian Forces personel, and my buddy and US Navy Special Forces officer at the same time. A smart guy would run when they see special forces tattoos all over a guys body.

    High School has changed. Kids are getting more aggresive and cocky. There is no more respect for other people.

  4. #4
    Depression and mental illness plays a huge part too...and its true pictures on the internet could never really go away, and consistent bullying and harassment on a daily basis can have a huge impact on a young girl who is already suffering from depression or bipolar and mood disorders. Plus their home life could also be dysfunctional as well, making it hard to cope and not have any safe environment to turn to when things get tough.

  5. #5
    I dont re Member HankQuinlan's Avatar
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    ^^^ Thank you, BC Babe, for injecting the reality. I knew things like that were wrong when I was in high school more than 40 years ago; there aren't any excuses. I heard rumours of drunk girls being "taken advantage of" -- raped -- if there had been "social media" back then, I'm sure I would have known far more of what really went on.

  6. #6
    Audrie Pott, I would agree with, because her suicide apparently came immediately after the event. But the other two, the suicides were long after the event in question. I think we like to find reasons for everything, but those two girls were probably allready on that slippery path and killed themselves because of their general mental state rather than anything else. The incidents which are being assigned as the "cause" probably were a result of that general state rather than the cause.

    I think if you look into all of these cases you will see girls who allready have major issues and were hanging out with the wrong sorts of people, where incidents like this are much more likely to happen.

    Someone needs to explain to these girls that if you get falling down drunk with bad boys (who have a very low sense of barriers to start with), bad things are likely to happen.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by tantalizeme View Post
    What makes these girls think "my life is ruined" because sexy photos and bawdry rumors circulate about them in their schools and on the web?

    ...

    Now I'm all in favor of spitroasting the guilty. But who is really guilty here? I know, when I was a teenage boy—with hormones raging 10 times worse than now—I didn't have the wisdom or insight of a garden slug.

    What really made these girls kill themselves, I believe, is a pervasive sex-negative social ethos that shames these girls for having been involved in consensual or non-consensual teenage sex or publicly exposing certain parts of their anatomy.
    Non-consensual sex has nothing to do with stringent social views toward sex. It is rape when someone is forced to have sex when consent has not been given.

    My goodness, what is wrong with your logic. These young teenaged girls were bullied or raped, and they did not feel they received the support they needed from society. The victims felt that people they sought help from did not care or take them seriously. This helplessness will cause suicide. And you're calling for changing the social mindset for the acceptability of a victim's exploitation and lewd sexualization of youths? Especially, in this case under-aged girls who didn't know better; Amanda Todd was lured by a perverted adult over the web. Your post sounds more like a generalized desire for a liberal sex culture which is okay; but leave that goal and attribute to adults. The three young teenaged bullying victims, essentially children, are a lot more vulnerable and don't need society to make them feel sexualized and be "sex-positive" to strange adults on the web. How the hell did you lose the plot?

    When I was a teenager, of course my hormones made me act stupid around girls, but I sure wasn't stupid enough to perpetrate the crimes committed by these individuals. The solution is prevention by education and support for the victims of rape and bullying. I don't know argument you were making for a solution. Especially the bolded entry. I scratch my head. It describes what you want in society, without empathizing what these girls felt.

    To put such a value judgment in your 2nd and 3rd last paragraph without being in their shoes is wrong and without sympathy.

    You guys put too much assumption that these girls were predisposed to a "condition" for their demise, rather than the highlighted actions of bullying and lack of support that were already described in the articles you've read.

    We need to understand that:

    -a women being raped is not just a women's issue, but also a male issue

    -a victim of bullying is not at fault, but the fault of the bully
    Last edited by thebuttdance continues; 04-14-2013 at 11:20 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tugela View Post
    Someone needs to explain to these girls that if you get falling down drunk with bad boys (who have a very low sense of barriers to start with), bad things are likely to happen.
    Yeah, let's blame the victim.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by BC_BABE View Post
    I think what made these girls kill themselves is the fact that they were sexually taken advantage of or gang raped and it was made a joke of. Instead of someone wanting to help them they got laughed at, teased and threatened. It wasn't because of societies attitudes on sexual matters, sexual matters don't include gang rape or exploiting a teen girl. These are not sexual matters these are criminal and the worst matters that exist on earth besides murder / death.

    Yes, the fact their pictures and their names were all over the internet / their towns / the world were a part of the reason they killed themselves but first someone had to intentionally and actively rape, exploit and destroy a little girls life. Not to down play how having those pics on the internet must be terrifying for these girls.

    These boys or men or girls involved should be given the toughest punishment possible. There needs to be some serious psychosocial education about the treatment of sex and what consensual sex means because apparently A LOT of boys and some girls don't even realize rape is rape.

    I personally don't think that anything will be done about bullying or rape until harsher punishments are dealt. Until the perpetrators have to start getting the same treatment as the victim. Until we get to a place in society where people behave like a kind human being for the sake of being a kind human being and not because they are afraid of the punishment. Because right now, in the past and hopefully not the future teen rapists get high fives and girls get their lives ruined. You may say it's forgotten after years but you have no idea how it is for those girls every day of their lives.

    Can you also say what you mean by this because it sounds like you are justifying such behavior out of being a horny teen boy and I'm sure that's not what you meant ....

    "Now I'm all in favor of spitroasting the guilty. But who is really guilty here? I know, when I was a teenage boy—with hormones raging 10 times worse than now—I didn't have the wisdom or insight of a garden slug."

    Notice that the girl was not being bullied as a rape victim but rather as a “slut”. So first of all, there is a big failure on the part of authorities (school, police?) to clearly label the incident as a crime and identify the victim as such. This is in support of your argument that rape is a serious matter which is not being addressed properly. The fact that the boys are guilty goes without saying, but they are not the only ones to blame.

    Take one step further and ask yourself why being labeled as a “slut” (not a rape victim, important) drives a young girl to suicide? And I think this is the argument that tanalizeme was making... It’s the society’s inherent negative attitude towards uncommitted or divergent sexual relationship that has females who engage in such behaviours being typecast and outcast. Bullies for the most part are acting based on the values they’ve been taught or simply follow their instincts: “being a slut is disgraceful, hence we need to persecute the slut”. As a slut of course, society says, you should be ashamed of yourself and have no place on this planet. I am saying liberalise attitudes towards sex as part of the solution and educate young people.

  10. #10
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    Tant, I was pretty disgusted reading some of your comments in this thread. I was shocked. When it comes to the issue of sex I understand you are a proponent of liberation, which, I agree with. However sexual liberation is not an antidote to rape.

    Imagine four men have cornered your mother in a back alley. They strip her down to her underwear and three of them proceed to piss and spit on her while the fourth vidoes it. One of them takes a shit and using a stick they smear it over her face and force it in her mouth. They shout derogatory names at her. She is helpless to stop them.

    Sound sick? But, many people pay for the privilege of being shit and pissed on. They go through these same types of sessions and go back out into the world, to their regular life, without guilt or fear. Shit and piss are just the natural products of our bodily functions...nothing to be ashamed about.

    Now, the films are on the internet. No sexual harm has come to her, remember, she has just been shit, pissed, and spat on. Now, all in her social circles are aware of these videos and many (think car accidents and train wrecks) just had to find out what happened, and see for themselves.

    Where is your mother's social status, now? Do you think she will be invited to the same coffee klatches, as before? Will the grocer treat her the same way after he has viewed her in her underwear covered in shit and piss? Will she want to go out into the world feeling that everyone sees her that way? When she looks in the mirror does she see a woman who deserved to be treated that way?

    Rape is not about sex. So making sex socially acceptable does not affect rape, or how it affects people. Rape is about making a human feel degraded and lower on the social order than the rapists. It is the intoxicating power of taking a human and crushing them under your heel...showing them they are worthless.

    Many, many young women dream of meeting the right guy and getting married and having babies. (Hard to believe if you live on porn websites and mainly interact with sps). Yes, they dream of the right guy and babies. So....what is their value after an event like that? Do they look in the mirror and see a person who can attract the 'right guy'?

    How does the right guy feel when he finds these videos online? Trust me, men in every faith look at porn, and click on every link showing naked women (or men)....can she ever leave the past behind her? Will she be a young mother with children in kindergarten when the video resurfaces?

    This is what runs through a young woman's mind...along with the feeling of having something as dirty as hate being forced into your body...do you know what it feels like to be incapable of fighting someone off? Being powerless? You come out of it with a sense of frailty; a feeling of being perpetually helpless.....fear is your friend.

    Teaching men to respect women and exercise discipline over themselves is the first step. Finding a way to disable pictures on the internet...permanently, is another good idea





    These aren't films peeking into the romantic passions of two people who love each other. They are films designed to

  11. #11
    wolf in sheep's clothing
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    Appreciate the thoughtful debate

    Quote Originally Posted by vancstok View Post
    Take one step further and ask yourself why being labeled as a “slut” (not a rape victim, important) drives a young girl to suicide? And I think this is the argument that tanalizeme was making... It’s the society’s inherent negative attitude towards uncommitted or divergent sexual relationship that has females who engage in such behaviours being typecast and outcast. Bullies for the most part are acting based on the values they’ve been taught or simply follow their instincts: “being a slut is disgraceful, hence we need to persecute the slut”. As a slut of course, society says, you should be ashamed of yourself and have no place on this planet. I am saying liberalise attitudes towards sex as part of the solution and educate young people.
    There're strong feelings and opinions here...which seems to have provoked vancstok to his first post. Thanks, brother, for understanding and elaborating my point with admirable clarity.

    I know, voicing any viewpoint on this issue—other than condemnation of the perpetrators—easily makes someone a lightning rod for anger. I regret that mimi is "disgusted" and "schocked" by my perspective.

    I greatly respect her life experience and accumulated wisdom. Thank you, mimi, for painting a gruesome picture here of my mom getting cornered in a back alley. You're no doubt trying to drum some empathy into guys like me for how "dirty" a girl might feel after being abused and cyber-bullied.

    I don't disagree at all with your perspective. There's of course not just a single factor driving these girls to suicide. As BC_Babe says, one contributing factor is mental health issues such as being depression-prone; and as Tugela says, "falling down drunk with bad boys" is a further factor.

    But surely, a culture of sexual shaming is another main factor causing these girls to experience nudie photos of themselves on the Internet as a tragic blow to their self-image.

    And perhaps the special porn niche featuring sex with sleeping drunk girls plays a role here too: e.g. http://www.largeporntube.com/popular...leeping/1.html

    I remember a quote by Margaret Atwood: "When boy raised on Hustler magazine meets girl raised on Harlequin romances, the clash of expectations can be heard around the block." Except it's no longer magazines—it's the far more titilliating, "hyper-stimulating" internet porn that is the daily mental diet of many teenage boys.

    I'm sure, Camille Paglia would have something to say about 16-yr-old girls passing out drunk in the company of equally drunk highschool classmates:

    "Paglia's view that rape is sexually motivated has been endorsed by evolutionary psychologists Randy Thornhill and Craig T. Palmer; they comment that "Paglia... urges women to be skeptical toward the feminist 'party line' on the subject, to become better informed about risk factors, and to use the information to lower their risk of rape." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Paglia

    But I don't think the problem of sexual assaults at teenager parties and subsequent "cyber-bullying" has any easy solutions.

    "Finding a way to disable pictures on the internet"? Once a photo has gone viral, asking owners of different web servers in different countries to delete this photo is the last idea I'd have considered feasible.

    Slapping the perpetrators on the wrist with a minor penalty (anonymously, because they're only 16 and can't legally be named)? That's not going to be very effective as a deterrent for other drunk boys at parties with passed-out teenage girls.

    Clamping down really hard on these highschool students by trying them in adult court (or, as proposed in California, even charging them with "homicide" for driving a girl to suicide)?What judge or jury can pronounce them guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" and convict them, especially if it comes down to a he said/she said situation?

    "Teaching men to respect women and exercise discipline over themselves..."? I'm all for education, but it's hard to instill a sense of responsibility into a 16-yr-old boy who doesn't have much going on in this mind to begin with.
    Leave them better than you find them.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Unpossible View Post
    Yeah, let's blame the victim.
    It's not blaming the victim, it is educating people not to do stupid things

    No one is excusing the guys who may have done this stuff, but on the other hand the girls cannot escape their personal responsibilities. And if you want to know why these girls are killing themselves, it is precisely those very responsibilities that they know they have failed at which is driving them to suicide.

    Why do so many of you not get that and oppose it at all costs? Is it because you like to see this sort of situation?

    There will allways be wolves and there will allways be lambs. Wolves are going to eat the lambs if the lambs stroll up to them and try to make friends. No mystery here, everyone, and I mean everyone, understands that basic rule of nature

    If you are a lamb, and have been told that hanging out with wolves is a bad idea, and you know it is a bad idea because you have seen them eating other lambs, don't you think maybe, just maybe, you have a certain amount of responsibility when you go and play with them? Just saying.

    You are confusing the expectation of reasonable responsibility with blame.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Sarah View Post
    Instead of teaching young girls how not to get raped, we should be teaching young boys not to rape!

    (read that somewhere else this morning)
    Boys already know not to rape. Those that do, do it anyway. Teaching them will achieve absolutely nothing.

    If you want to control the situation you need to educate the potential victims so they don't become victims.

    The people who say the sort of stuff you quote are in effect advocating that we do nothing, and leave the status quo as it is.

  14. #14
    Man, your mind is twisted Tug

    You're good at making your own facts based on assumptions and ignorance.

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...234228780.html

  15. #15
    http://news.yahoo.com/3-charged-sexu...213559551.html

    "We're talking about, other than murdering someone, the highest degree of a crime you could possibly do, which is to violate them in the worst of ways...and then to effectively rub her face in it afterwards" (from article)

    ... 'What anti-sex society is killing these girls'? that's a corrupted statement.

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