Trans Mountain expansion effectively dead (for now)

CanineCowboy

Active member
Feb 5, 2010
604
158
43
I am surprised no thread has been started discussing today's Federal Court of Appeal's decision which has effectively quashed Kinder Morgan's (and now the federal government's) plan to expand the Trans Mountain pipeline anytime soon. The decision also further defined 'meaningful consultation' with First Nations as requiring 'accomodation'.

Definitely a day for celebration!
 

treveller

Member
Sep 22, 2008
627
7
18
It's too early to say the pipeline is dead. The decision can be appealed to the supreme court. Justin can still use our money to buy the project even if it is worthless. Justin could call another sham review of the project by the National Energy Board and hope for a different result when it goes to court.
 

CanineCowboy

Active member
Feb 5, 2010
604
158
43
It's too early to say the pipeline is dead. The decision can be appealed to the supreme court. Justin can still use our money to buy the project even if it is worthless. Justin could call another sham review of the project by the National Energy Board and hope for a different result when it goes to court.
Well actually, Kinder Morgan share holders voted today, with a 99% approval, to approve the sale of Trans Mountain to the federal government, so that is basically a done deal.

An appeal is meant to take a minimum of 18 months.

The other option requires the Feds to return to the process and 'meaningfully consult' with First Nations and 'accomodate' their concerns, as well as to include the marine transportation of bitumen in the review process.

As expressed in the title of my post, that is why the expansion is dead for now.
 

overdone

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2007
1,458
154
63
well at least in Alberta, Nutley is finished for sure now

hopefully Kenny will find his balls and shut off the valves completely to BC
 

Abbott_

Banned
Jan 23, 2018
274
1
0
hinterland
Reminiscing ~ :rolleyes:

Ever_heard of the Mackenzie Valley nat-gas pipe ?

Merven Gruben, mayor-elect of Tuktoyaktuk said :

"It was just a farce the way they wasted their time doing all these studies and all these meetings all over the North," Gruben said.
"They wasted so much money and time. By the time they said it was a go, it was too late ... all the [natural gas] prices had gone down."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/...more-1.4465997
 

80watts

Well-known member
May 20, 2004
2,420
625
113
Victoria
Which pipeline will the fed gov. get? old one or the one to be constructed. But in the future it will not stop another fed gov. from selling it off cheap to its friends.

In the end the fed will win. Under the charter of rights, do the feds have to consult the first nations? or just make up new laws.
 

papillion

My escort name is Lora-Lana
Jan 31, 2006
689
56
28
BC
fetlife.com
Well actually, Kinder Morgan share holders voted today, with a 99% approval, to approve the sale of Trans Mountain to the federal government, so that is basically a done deal.

An appeal is meant to take a minimum of 18 months.

The other option requires the Feds to return to the process and 'meaningfully consult' with First Nations and 'accomodate' their concerns, as well as to include the marine transportation of bitumen in the review process.

As expressed in the title of my post, that is why the expansion is dead for now.
I believe you are correct, an appeal would likely take 1.5 to 2 years, by then the econmics of tarsands bitumen will have worsened, and this pipeline will never go.
 

Addison Cortez

Addixion
Sep 14, 2017
851
5
18
Which pipeline will the fed gov. get? old one or the one to be constructed. But in the future it will not stop another fed gov. from selling it off cheap to its friends.

In the end the fed will win. Under the charter of rights, do the feds have to consult the first nations? or just make up new laws.
Likely have to give First Nations a certain percentage of jobs and the education if needed
 

thodisipagal

Active member
Oct 23, 2010
406
31
28
Surrey
well at least in Alberta, Nutley is finished for sure now

hopefully Kenny will find his balls and shut off the valves completely to BC
Shutting off the valves, balls or no balls, would contravene s.92A(2) of Constitution Act 1867. Such action would not stand in a court of law.
 

thodisipagal

Active member
Oct 23, 2010
406
31
28
Surrey
Which pipeline will the fed gov. get? old one or the one to be constructed. But in the future it will not stop another fed gov. from selling it off cheap to its friends.

In the end the fed will win. Under the charter of rights, do the feds have to consult the first nations? or just make up new laws.
The federal government is required by law to consult with Aboriginal peoples, including First Nations, on any potential impact of government's decisions on Aboriginal and treaty rights, not pursuant to the Charter, but to s.35 of Constitution Act 1982.
 

overdone

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2007
1,458
154
63
Shutting off the valves, balls or no balls, would contravene s.92A(2) of Constitution Act 1867. Such action would not stand in a court of law.
lol

and by the time the appeals reach the Supreme court, the damage would be done

I'd give you a winter, maybe spring :yawn:

haven't you noticed the BC approach :loco:

there are so many other things they can do, legally

the gov't owns the oil, taxes it, taxes the oil industry, gives the permits to extract it, ship it, ect.....

you really think Alberta can't stop extraction/production/shipping? legally? lol

look at Que, they got oil/gas, they won't let anyone touch it

if the idiots in BC/QUE are going to bankrupt Alberta with their hypocrite ways, we might as well go all in and take the rest of the country down with us

you know do unto others and all
 

thodisipagal

Active member
Oct 23, 2010
406
31
28
Surrey
lol

and by the time the appeals reach the Supreme court, the damage would be done

I'd give you a winter, maybe spring :yawn:

haven't you noticed the BC approach :loco:

there are so many other things they can do, legally

the gov't owns the oil, taxes it, taxes the oil industry, gives the permits to extract it, ship it, ect.....

you really think Alberta can't stop extraction/production/shipping? legally? lol

look at Que, they got oil/gas, they won't let anyone touch it

if the idiots in BC/QUE are going to bankrupt Alberta with their hypocrite ways, we might as well go all in and take the rest of the country down with us

you know do unto others and all
You seem to have scant regard for our constitution.

Anyway, the existing Trans Mountain Pipeline now belongs to federal government. So what valve can Alberta shut off? You think Alberta government can legislate and force the feds to shut off the valve?

Finally, it's Alberta that's landlocked, not BC.
 

treveller

Member
Sep 22, 2008
627
7
18
I heard/read a story recently about ocean freighters being required to switch from high sulfur bunker c to low sulfur fuel in 2 or 3 years. When that happens the high sulfur dilbit from the tar sands will have near zero market value because few refineries can turn it into low sulphur fuel. It just gets worse for trans mountain, the Liberals and Canadian taxpayers.
 

badbadboy

Well-known member
Nov 2, 2006
9,576
277
83
In Lust Mostly
I am surprised no thread has been started discussing today's Federal Court of Appeal's decision which has effectively quashed Kinder Morgan's (and now the federal government's) plan to expand the Trans Mountain pipeline anytime soon. The decision also further defined 'meaningful consultation' with First Nations as requiring 'accomodation'.

Definitely a day for celebration!
It was flawed from the beginning with the oil side thinking they had covered all the bases. They had not consulted with the First Nations in a consultative process nor the City of Burnaby, Dist of N Van etc. From what I heard on the news was a former federal negotiator said they put in their documents without weighing support from interested parties.

Reminiscing ~ :rolleyes:

Ever_heard of the Mackenzie Valley nat-gas pipe ?

Merven Gruben, mayor-elect of Tuktoyaktuk said :

"It was just a farce the way they wasted their time doing all these studies and all these meetings all over the North," Gruben said.
"They wasted so much money and time. By the time they said it was a go, it was too late ... all the [natural gas] prices had gone down."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/...more-1.4465997
A different time with many moving parts to that pipeline. What wasn't said was Mayor Gruben's entire family were contracted at many different jobs by Esso, Dome Petroleum etc. They were made extremely wealthy by any Canadian standard. They were involved with construction, heavy equipment, catering etc in every base camp. Also maintained roads and the airport year round. YUB Airport is named after him.

Conversely many Inuit groups wanted consultation about the effect on Caribou migration by pipelines. The threat of oil spills was very real in those days. Putting in a pipeline across tundra with wide swings in temperature is a specialty by some geotechnical engineers. It was leading edge at the time.

Also at the time Canada had minority Govt in Ottawa from both Liberals and Conservatives. No one party could move it ahead without a vote of confidence. Then add in all the special interest groups, it was choked with studies and meetings across the north.

The federal government is required by law to consult with Aboriginal peoples, including First Nations, on any potential impact of government's decisions on Aboriginal and treaty rights, not pursuant to the Charter, but to s.35 of Constitution Act 1982.
 

overdone

Well-known member
Apr 26, 2007
1,458
154
63
You seem to have scant regard for our constitution.

Anyway, the existing Trans Mountain Pipeline now belongs to federal government. So what valve can Alberta shut off? You think Alberta government can legislate and force the feds to shut off the valve?

Finally, it's Alberta that's landlocked, not BC.
the pipeline, not the oil/gas/products running through it

that has nothing to do with the feds, Alberta can shut down it's oil anytime it wants

and BC's/Natives argument is tanker traffic, again, just like Que, taking Saudi oil by sea, so yeah you're not landlocked, tanker traffic if we get cut off is fine, jet fuel pipeline from Wash fine too, that just shows why they're hypocrites (LNG plants on the coast, coal to Asia from US, fine, shit straight into the Ocean, fine, it's all about the enviroment/Orcas, lol)

we want oil, and will get just what suits us

and our constitution is nothing more than laws, which change and are interpreted according to the whim of those in power at the time, or have you been asleep for the past 40 yrs

so if the supreme court, changes the ruling, disagrees 5-4 with the lower court, would you say they had no regard for the constitution? lol

the bottom line is, if you don't want Alberta's oil, then quit taking any of it and go your own way

cause it's all about what's in the pipe, right?

and you're Alberta owned refinery will be pretty much useless, so

problem solved

step up and walk the talk
 

CanineCowboy

Active member
Feb 5, 2010
604
158
43
the pipeline, not the oil/gas/products running through it

that has nothing to do with the feds, Alberta can shut down it's oil anytime it wants

and BC's/Natives argument is tanker traffic, again, just like Que, taking Saudi oil by sea, so yeah you're not landlocked, tanker traffic if we get cut off is fine, jet fuel pipeline from Wash fine too, that just shows why they're hypocrites (LNG plants on the coast, coal to Asia from US, fine, shit straight into the Ocean, fine, it's all about the enviroment/Orcas, lol)

we want oil, and will get just what suits us

and our constitution is nothing more than laws, which change and are interpreted according to the whim of those in power at the time, or have you been asleep for the past 40 yrs

so if the supreme court, changes the ruling, disagrees 5-4 with the lower court, would you say they had no regard for the constitution? lol

the bottom line is, if you don't want Alberta's oil, then quit taking any of it and go your own way

cause it's all about what's in the pipe, right?

and you're Alberta owned refinery will be pretty much useless, so

problem solved

step up and walk the talk
I think the points you raise illustrate the ignorant framing of the conflict over the pipeline expansion project that is common in Alberta. Blame everybody else - Notely, Trudeau, Horgan, First Nations and British Columbians - insult them and threaten punishment (hmmm...kind of reminds me of a certain President).

The court decision to squash the NEB's approval was completely due to a failed process and Alberta's 'surprised' reaction to the ruling demonstrates how out of touch they are with reality. Instead of expending energy insulting and threatening British Columbians maybe Albertans should be redirecting their energy into creating a more diversified and sustainable economy, even in the Emirates they are investigating life after oil.

And don't worry about British Columbians, we have already proven to be resourceful, progressive and innovative - and Alberta's threat of turning off the pipeline is empty. How else are y'all going to make your monthly payments on your trucks and quads?
 

badbadboy

Well-known member
Nov 2, 2006
9,576
277
83
In Lust Mostly
I think the points you raise illustrate the ignorant framing of the conflict over the pipeline expansion project that is common in Alberta. Blame everybody else - Notely, Trudeau, Horgan, First Nations and British Columbians - insult them and threaten punishment (hmmm...kind of reminds me of a certain President).

The court decision to squash the NEB's approval was completely due to a failed process and Alberta's 'surprised' reaction to the ruling demonstrates how out of touch they are with reality. Instead of expending energy insulting and threatening British Columbians maybe Albertans should be redirecting their energy into creating a more diversified and sustainable economy, even in the Emirates they are investigating life after oil.

And don't worry about British Columbians, we have already proven to be resourceful, progressive and innovative - and Alberta's threat of turning off the pipeline is empty. How else are y'all going to make your monthly payments on your trucks and quads?
Your response is a lot more diplomatic and polite than the one I discarded. :thumb: Although in the light of your comment about #45, my response did say "build a wall on the BC border and ...... ".

These uninformed people do not consider all the factors making a mega project like this one a reality and when they fail, can only have a knee jerk reaction to turn off the taps. I think if the whole process considered everyone's concerns about how and where the bitumen would be loaded is something that Trans Mountain, Govt of Alberta and the Govt of Canada overlooked. They just listened to what these ex Eron people said and backed an expansion of the port within Vancouver harbour. If Trans Mountain and NEB had actually listened to every group's concerns along the path of the pipeline, they might have been successful getting this project underway. Now it's probably going to the Supreme Court of Canada and may be tied up for years.
 

storm rider

Banned
Dec 6, 2008
2,545
6
0
Calgary
I am surprised no thread has been started discussing today's Federal Court of Appeal's decision which has effectively quashed Kinder Morgan's (and now the federal government's) plan to expand the Trans Mountain pipeline anytime soon. The decision also further defined 'meaningful consultation' with First Nations as requiring 'accomodation'.

Definitely a day for celebration!
Would have replied sooner but I was banned because some thin skinned Socialist objects to the idea of free speech.

A "day for celebration".....celebration of what....Western Canadian Select oil being land locked to a single buyer?Yeah thats real smart.When it comes down to brass tacks the only First Nations protesting the expansion of an already existing pipeline are the ones who are NOT getting any MONEY.With regards to the impact on the BC coast there will be no impact as there have been no oil tanker collisions and if there were oil tankers are now mandated by International Maritime Law to be double hulled....so that agruement is even more of a joke.What about those precious Killer Whales....yeah well they are pretty smart and they know if they get hit by a ship they are DEAD....has that busy Port of Vancouver with ALL of the container ships that bring in goods and send them out on a 24 hour 7 day a week basis been mowing down the Killer Whale population....nope...has not happened.

All of these pipelines should have been proposed in 1997 when the price of oil started to heat up and Alberta started to get back on track after the long felt effects of the NEP.Back before US special interest groups like the Tides Foundation started to funnel money to Canadian special interest groups to fight against the development of the Oilsands as well as infrastucture to get them to market.Not to mention before the Oilsands were TARRED with the name of "dirty oil" by the enviro wack nuts.How nuts it is that Canada imports Unethical oil from Saudi Arabia which as a country has a dismal human rights record and yet our own citizens decry and protest the development of our own energy sources because they are deemed "dirty".....yet those same protesters would not have the balls to go to Saudi Arabia and protest because they would feel the heavy hand of justice delivered via a system run by a Royal family in a country that is a Dictatorship.

At the same time these enviro nut jobs are total hypocrites.They drive SUV's and consume products derived from petroleum....it is all OK though if you are against the development of the "dirty" Oilsands.


If this post gets me banned.....well I guess free speech on PERB is out of the fuckin window.

SR
 

80watts

Well-known member
May 20, 2004
2,420
625
113
Victoria
Abra-cadabra.
Federal government will wave its mighty vote in parliament... and the oil will run...... hopefully not into the turgid waters of BC west coast....
 

licks2nite

Active member
Nov 30, 2006
657
79
28
The best that I could see happen is for Justin Trudeau to back out of the Kinder Morgan purchase and let Kinder Morgan Inc. deal with the Appeals Court decision. From there, taxpayers save $4.5 billion for "Energy East", the pipeline to refineries in New Brunswick and Sarnia, Ontario.
 
Ashley Madison
Vancouver Escorts